Finance

[Chesterfield_Ram]

16 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

There are facts available on Companies House in the administrators report, which he has even quoted.

The administrators does not say there was £248,410,709 loaned to the club.

The directors statement of affairs say there were creditors of £36m with only claims of £2m submitted in administration. 

MM may have been owed money by his other companies but nowhere is there anything that says he was owed in excess of £200m by our club...well other than these anonymous journalists that told our resident expert of course 😂

It doesn’t say directly that money was loaned to the club. But having just checked to make sure I was giving the correct figures, on page 15 of the administrators progress report filed on 27th October 2022 (the second progress report) there was £125,011,384 and £123,399,325 against SEVCO and GELLAW in the claims per directors’ statement of affairs. However non of these were then claimed.

[Ghost of Clough]

1 hour ago, Chesterfield_Ram said:

99% of the time he uses facts that are there in black and white on companies house. However this falls into the 1% where the facts are not there on companies house as the club hasn’t published any accounts since 2016 or 2017. 
 

As the administrators report says £248,410,709 was either loaned to or the club owed (I’m not sure which), which was not claimed during the administration. I’d argue that by using a number of sources his argument would be stronger than just claiming to know this is the case. 

The administrators report showed Sevco (5112) and Gellaw (Newco 203) both owed someone over £100m

[Chesterfield_Ram]

4 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

The administrators report showed Sevco (5112) and Gellaw (Newco 203) both owed someone over £100m

There the companies I was talking about previously. While the administrators don’t say who exactly was owed the money at that point, the only 2 I can think of would be Morris or msd holdings. 
 

I must clarify though that I don’t believe at all that the club owes Morris anything financially.

[Crewton]

In the original Director's SoA, on the detailed schedules of assets and liabilities, there's a figure of £154M against a Share Premium Account, but you'll have trouble finding figures that add up to either of those £120M figures. That's why it's hard to pinpoint how they're comprised.

[G STAR RAM]

47 minutes ago, Chesterfield_Ram said:

It doesn’t say directly that money was loaned to the club. But having just checked to make sure I was giving the correct figures, on page 15 of the administrators progress report filed on 27th October 2022 (the second progress report) there was £125,011,384 and £123,399,325 against SEVCO and GELLAW in the claims per directors’ statement of affairs. However non of these were then claimed.

So nothing was owed to MM by the club, as Ive already stated. Sevco and Gellaw were the vehicles used for buying the ground and the share capital in DCFC.

If you buy shares in a company they do not owe you that money. 

 

[Ghost of Clough]

39 minutes ago, Chesterfield_Ram said:

There the companies I was talking about previously. While the administrators don’t say who exactly was owed the money at that point, the only 2 I can think of would be Morris or msd holdings. 
 

I must clarify though that I don’t believe at all that the club owes Morris anything financially.

Exactly... those companies are not 'The Club'.

You'll probably find it was all equity. Shareholders are only paid if there is money leftover after paying unsecured creditors and in most cases (including ours) those shares are considered worthless.

Going back to Maguire's comment: "the club owed Mel in excess £200m but he claimed nothing". The club didn't owe him money, and he wasn't entitled to any money as there was never going to be any money left after paying all the creditors anyway.

[G STAR RAM]

5 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Exactly... those companies are not 'The Club'.

You'll probably find it was all equity. Shareholders are only paid if there is money leftover after paying unsecured creditors and in most cases (including ours) those shares are considered worthless.

Going back to Maguire's comment: "the club owed Mel in excess £200m but he claimed nothing". The club didn't owe him money, and he wasn't entitled to any money as there was never going to be any money left after paying all the creditors anyway.

No don't forget, it wasn't Maguire, it was some journalists that he had been speaking to 😂

I'm genuinely embarrassed for him that, despite having all of the information infront of him that he has repeated this claim that he allegedly heard.

I assume he will go on Twitter and clarify that his claim is complete unsubstantiated nonsense...

[Van der MoodHoover]

8 hours ago, duncanjwitham said:

Yet he's been completely wrong about multiple things related to us.  At one stage he was confidently insisting that the new rules meant we would have to pay HMRC 100% of what we owed them, for example.

I think that's the difference between accountancy rules as they apply to businesses in general and the EFL capricious rules which don't have to make sense to anybody and only apply to the 72 businesses that are the EFL clubs?

[duncanjwitham]

9 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

I think that's the difference between accountancy rules as they apply to businesses in general and the EFL capricious rules which don't have to make sense to anybody and only apply to the 72 businesses that are the EFL clubs?

I think it was more that nobody quite knew how the new rules (with HMRC having a higher preference) were going to interact with all that stuff.  But rather than say that it wasn’t clear yet, he came out and started making “factual” claims that later turned out to be wrong.

[Chesterfield_Ram]

1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Exactly... those companies are not 'The Club'.

I’m not trying to start an argument here, but those companies were the companies controlling the club. 
 

Sevco 5112 was split into 9 companies: SEVCO 5113, Global Derby, Gellaw 101, Derby County Football Club, Club DCFC, Stadia DCFC, Derby County Academy, Derby County Stadium and DCFC. Resources would be filtered through these companies to basically cut costs in areas then hide them elsewhere. For example, it looked good on paper when the ‘team’ made a profit in 2017, but some of the costs were ‘hidden’ in another of these companies.

[RoyMac5]

4 minutes ago, Chesterfield_Ram said:

I’m not trying to start an argument here, but those companies were the companies controlling the club. 
 

Sevco 5112 was split into 9 companies: SEVCO 5113, Global Derby, Gellaw 101, Derby County Football Club, Club DCFC, Stadia DCFC, Derby County Academy, Derby County Stadium and DCFC. Resources would be filtered through these companies to basically cut costs in areas then hide them elsewhere. For example, it looked good on paper when the ‘team’ made a profit in 2017, but some of the costs were ‘hidden’ in another of these companies.

Mel was clever. Or was it another person with an accounting background?

[Chesterfield_Ram]

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

So nothing was owed to MM by the club, as Ive already stated. Sevco and Gellaw were the vehicles used for buying the ground and the share capital in DCFC.

If you buy shares in a company they do not owe you that money. 

 

The money I mentioned previously, which featured in the administrators progress report, were not from shares.

According to companies house £3,236,299 and £43,049 were put into SEVCO in the form of shares.

Morris appeared to be trying to protect himself by putting money into the club in the form of loans, which would make him a creditor. But as he didn’t publish any accounts since 2017 we can’t tell exactly how much the loans were. Therefore, he would be owed that money legally. However, I strongly disagree with club owners being owed money by the club they own.

If he put money into the club in the form of shares it would have appeared on companies house. 

[Chesterfield_Ram]

26 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

I think that's the difference between accountancy rules as they apply to businesses in general and the EFL capricious rules which don't have to make sense to anybody and only apply to the 72 businesses that are the EFL clubs?

I believe the club would have had to pay 100% if HMRC requested it. Luckily though they agreed to a deal where they were guaranteed a set amount. I suppose they were of the believe that they would prefer a % of something, as opposed to 100% of nothing.

[G STAR RAM]

6 minutes ago, Chesterfield_Ram said:

The money I mentioned previously, which featured in the administrators progress report, were not from shares.

According to companies house £3,236,299 and £43,049 were put into SEVCO in the form of shares.

Morris appeared to be trying to protect himself by putting money into the club in the form of loans, which would make him a creditor. But as he didn’t publish any accounts since 2017 we can’t tell exactly how much the loans were. Therefore, he would be owed that money legally. However, I strongly disagree with club owners being owed money by the club they own.

If he put money into the club in the form of shares it would have appeared on companies house. 

Where were these loans to the club mentioned in the Directors Statement of Affairs pubished at Companies House then?

[duncanjwitham]

9 minutes ago, Chesterfield_Ram said:

I believe the club would have had to pay 100% if HMRC requested it. Luckily though they agreed to a deal where they were guaranteed a set amount. I suppose they were of the believe that they would prefer a % of something, as opposed to 100% of nothing.

Your last sentence is right.  As one of the largest creditors, they could have absolutely refused the settlement if they weren’t happy with the percentage they were getting. But in that case they would basically get nothing, as nobody was buying the club for the amount of cash that paying 100% to HMRC would have required.  The rules were tweaked, but the fundamental mechanics of the situation were unchanged from previous football administrations - the only way anybody gets any money is if the club is able to carry on as a going concern.  And that dictates that creditors have to make a deal to make that happen.  That set of mechanics should have been obvious to anyone.  

The only issue would have been if HMRC decided to make an example of someone to demonstrate they were serious about the new rules - but given the questions that would have been raised about them simultaneously forcing a historic football club into liquidation, and turning down taking a (still significant) amount of money into the public purse, that was pretty unlikely IMO. 

[Chesterfield_Ram]

13 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Where were these loans to the club mentioned in the Directors Statement of Affairs pubished at Companies House then?

I haven’t looked for that. I’m sure throughout the Morris era when spoke about putting money in it was in this form. From what I have read though there are just the amounts that we were in debt. As I mentioned the amounts in the directors statement of affairs were on page 15 of the october progress report. Without saying that these were definitely the loans what else could they be? I genuinely want to know what else you think they could be @G STAR RAM?

[Ghost of Clough]

47 minutes ago, Chesterfield_Ram said:

I’m not trying to start an argument here, but those companies were the companies controlling the club. 
 

Sevco 5112 was split into 9 companies: SEVCO 5113, Global Derby, Gellaw 101, Derby County Football Club, Club DCFC, Stadia DCFC, Derby County Academy, Derby County Stadium and DCFC. Resources would be filtered through these companies to basically cut costs in areas then hide them elsewhere. For example, it looked good on paper when the ‘team’ made a profit in 2017, but some of the costs were ‘hidden’ in another of these companies.

It's OK to admit you're wrong. Maguire made a comment which was 100% incorrect. That's what is being debated here.

[Walkley Ram]

Can someone let me know who's right here? Also what are we arguing about?

[Chesterfield_Ram]

30 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

It's OK to admit you're wrong. Maguire made a comment which was 100% incorrect. That's what is being debated here.

All I’ve been trying to say is that if the comment you’re talking about is the £200 million being owed to Morris, then his comment is neither 100% correct or 100% incorrect. All I’ve been trying to say is that the way the accounts and companies were dealt with has left a lot of grey areas.

As someone with Maguire’s credentials and his track record across the sport, I’m inclined to believe what he has to say over an anonymous member on a forum.

[kevinhectoring]

On 21/01/2024 at 16:31, G STAR RAM said:

The £19m is in addition to the loan which appears to have been circa £24m.

The £19m would have been made up of the circa £7m paid to HMRC, the football creditors, plus a little bit to the other creditors.

Yes the MSD loan was 23m plus and was repaid by DC as a condition of MM selling the stadium. for a song. He imposed that condition because he’d guaranteed the loan. Selling a stadium worth 80 m for £23 m, and writing off 200m of holdco debt, Mel what a guy !!