Has Warbeball really changed (not negative just a question)

[Millenniumram]

31 minutes ago, Srg said:

No, it suggests those are the players the squad didn’t have. And it still doesn’t. We still lack pace and athleticism, and it got shown up badly against Posh. 

Maybe, we will see how his recruitment continues. I agree we lack pace in midfield, but I wouldn’t say we’re slouches up front. I still believe he could get more from our technical players.

[jono]

14 hours ago, Millenniumram said:

I mean to be fair he’s been flip flopping around formations like mad this season, so there definitely have been lots of tactical changes in there. However, the style of play remains the same - a focus on athleticism over football, with runners preferred to those with technical ability.

Now, whilst I’m well known not to be a fan of this (or Warne himself for that matter), this is fine so long as it delivers results. My concern is that there remain 2 main limitations with this idea of simply “out working” the opposition:

1. You run the risk of becoming “flat track bullies” - able to batter the poorer teams in the league, but come unstuck against those who simply outplay you in possession. We saw this quite clearly last season, and there is some evidence of it this time around too - with the game against Peterborough on Monday a fine example of when we simply can’t compete with an opponent who focuses on passing the ball well. That said, the league is weaker this season so it’s not quite as evident (and it also feels like we’ve dropped more silly points this season compared with last year).

2. This is my main concern - it kind of lends itself to a pattern of starting slowly while players build up fitness, hitting form and going on a massive run mid season, the running out of steam and collapsing at the end. This is exactly what happened last season, and seems to also be pattern with Warne’s teams in general. Our squad depth is better this season, but we are still an aging team overall, so I do still worry this will come to the fore in the coming months. 

The acid test for me will be how we contend with the next couple of months. We have a run of games against quite lowly opposition which we absolutely MUST capitalise on - can we deal with the relentless winter schedule and avoid our annual New Year collapse? We really need to establish ourselves a commanding position at the summit of the table - COYR

I think that’s fair enough but at the same time the flat track bully thing is kind of what you need in league 1. Then I’d think I’d challenge you over our performance against better teams. I am no stato but suspect we have been on par in our games against the better teams. Peterborough the other week was narrow margins, both teams played good skilled football but the deciding margin for me was down to younger legs.

You’re right though about the end of season drop off. I hope the bigger squad, returnees from injury and any reinforcements might just be enough to get us over the line. The one thing that worries me is Peterborough in a play off final ! 

[Millenniumram]

3 hours ago, jono said:

I think that’s fair enough but at the same time the flat track bully thing is kind of what you need in league 1. Then I’d think I’d challenge you over our performance against better teams. I am no stato but suspect we have been on par in our games against the better teams. Peterborough the other week was narrow margins, both teams played good skilled football but the deciding margin for me was down to younger legs.

You’re right though about the end of season drop off. I hope the bigger squad, returnees from injury and any reinforcements might just be enough to get us over the line. The one thing that worries me is Peterborough in a play off final ! 

Of course, you don’t want to be dropping points against stupid sides. But you also need to be able to beat the top teams if you want automatic promotion. Agree our performances against the top team have been better this season - as I mentioned, not sure if this is to do with our own improvement, or a general weakening in the league (including the top sides).

Our squad depth will have to play a key role this season if we are to see it out to success. We’ve got a deeper squad than last season, and we must use that to our advantage. Luckily I think either us or Peterborough will get automatics, so don’t think that will happen!

[europia]

Whatever Warneball is?? However, individual performances have improved, and we are playing better as a team. 

[MadAmster]

We went  back 3 at the weekend as we didn't have a fit "back 4" RB available with Nyambe away at AFCON. Neither Ward nor Wilson is a proper right back, IMO. That meant we had to go back 3. If Smith was fit he'd have been at RB at the weekend. He's still not training with the squad so he's nowhere near ready to play. I think we will see a back 3 for the rest of this month until Nyambe is back. He will be straight back in as we look far more solid with a back 4 than a 3. 

[IslandExile]

I think it's changed - the ball is played to feet a lot more, rather than just pumped down the channels in hope.

Consequently, we retain the ball more, stretch the opposition and create more and better chances.

I'm all for it 🐏

[Dean (hick) Saunders]

2 hours ago, MadAmster said:

We went  back 3 at the weekend as we didn't have a fit "back 4" RB available with Nyambe away at AFCON. Neither Ward nor Wilson is a proper right back, IMO. That meant we had to go back 3. If Smith was fit he'd have been at RB at the weekend. He's still not training with the squad so he's nowhere near ready to play. I think we will see a back 3 for the rest of this month until Nyambe is back. He will be straight back in as we look far more solid with a back 4 than a 3. 

Stop talking sense..

[YorkshireRam]

23 hours ago, Millenniumram said:

Much of this is true, I’ll give you that. I’d still argue that his hand has been rather “forced” to play more technical players though, because they’re what he mainly inherited from Rosenior.

His recruitment has mainly been of workhorses like Washington, Waghorn, Fornah, Ward etc - which suggests to me those are the sort of players he prefers, and would build a team around them given the chance. He did even try to at the start of this season, before it became evident that it wouldn’t work, and (to his credit) he’s changed tack a bit since. 

It still feels to me though (and it is only a feeling) that he’s itching to return to his 3-5-2 workhorse team as soon as he has the players to.

 

Fornah has produced the best bit of close control/skill i've seen this season, while Ward is easily the best crosser of the ball at the club- think you're doing them a disservice by not describing them as technical. Waghorn rattling in a hattrick of classy finishes also doesn't fit this brief; it seems very much like you're trying to bend facts to suit an agenda here... No mention of the recruitment of Wilson who is a flair player that loves to nutmeg people either?

20 hours ago, Millenniumram said:

Maybe, we will see how his recruitment continues. I agree we lack pace in midfield, but I wouldn’t say we’re slouches up front. I still believe he could get more from our technical players.

NML is on track to have his most productive season to date? Bird influencing games far more thanks to Warne recognising he could be more effective as an #8 than a #4? Cashin's form under Warne has been outstanding (barring the early blip) and he's a very technical centre half, consistently preferred to marquee signing Bradley. Again, I'd argue Warne has improved our technical players as much as anyone else.

[Nuwtfly]

Perhaps stats can back this up, perhaps not, but I would say that since the end of November there has been a visible difference in how we're playing. The ball is on the pitch a lot more, we pass more and more accurately, we move the ball forward with more pace and actively try to play through the lines more rather than lump it over the top to Collins over and over.

There's still a lot of pumping it down the lines and crossing the ball in. Like...a lot. But we seem to be getting better at making the most of that tactic. Nobody would complain about it if we scored a goal every other time we crossed it in, that's for sure!

"Warneball" has been better ever since the club came out and backed him. Or it has seemed that way to my eye.

[Millenniumram]

40 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said:

Fornah has produced the best bit of close control/skill i've seen this season, while Ward is easily the best crosser of the ball at the club- think you're doing them a disservice by not describing them as technical. Waghorn rattling in a hattrick of classy finishes also doesn't fit this brief; it seems very much like you're trying to bend facts to suit an agenda here... No mention of the recruitment of Wilson who is a flair player that loves to nutmeg people either?

NML is on track to have his most productive season to date? Bird influencing games far more thanks to Warne recognising he could be more effective as an #8 than a #4? Cashin's form under Warne has been outstanding (barring the early blip) and he's a very technical centre half, consistently preferred to marquee signing Bradley. Again, I'd argue Warne has improved our technical players as much as anyone else.

I don’t remember that from Fornah, irrespective he’s been poor otherwise. Ward has also been pretty woeful, despite a few good crosses. Waghorn is a good player, but technically gifted he is not. Most of his signings have not been what I was call “footballers”. Even Wilson, who I rate highly, is still quite direct (not that that’s a problem of course!) - same goes for Mendez-Laing, who is definitely having an excellent season.

Not saying Warne isn’t getting the best out of some players, he clearly is. But I’d still say the “footballers” he could get more out of. Bird had a great game at the weekend, but I think he could be way more effective if we played through the middle more often. Same goes for Sibley who is rarely given a chance. And Barkhuizen who often seems to be unfairly left out the team.

[BatRam]

the signs have been there but not very consistent. but now our team is close to full fitness and cohesion has been so much better

[On the Ram Page]

I personally don't like the terms Warneball or Hoofball - I don't think they exist and think they are derogatory.

We were all disappointed with the way we started the season, after doing pretty well in the pre-season friendlies. But maybe there were reasons for the poor start:

We have added 12 new players to the squad this season - time is needed to bed in, get used to other players, how the manager wants to play, get used to the demands of the supporters. This was not helped with injuries (pre-season & since) to Elder, Ward, Wilson, Rooney, Barkhuizen, Bird, Washington, Waghorn, John-Jules, Smith Thompson, Sibley & Embleton.

Selection was limited at times, especially early season. Individual errors in the first few games (Bradley, Nelson, Wildsmith) didn't help to breed confidence. Pressure built on the team and management from the fans, due to some very unconvincing displays. Warne likes to play with pace, athleticism, aggression with lots of crosses into the box and pressing high to win the ball back  (Liverpool, Man City Arsenal spring to mind as good examples of this), Unfortunately, he didn't have the players to produce this,  especially with all the injuries. The players struggled and above all else our passing was terrible.

Gradually, as some players have returned from injury, our performances have improved, our passing has greatly improved (but still a way to go yet). For all the criticisms we are the second highest scorers in the league with 47 goals (averaging nearly 2 a game) and the second best (equal) defensive record. Still - as everyone says (Warne, players & fans)  there is still scope for significant improvement in performances. 

There have been 2 or 3 really disappointing results or performances - Cheltenham (new manager syndrome and look how much they have improved since - ask Portsmouth) - Stevenage where we were out-bullied and Peterborough who beat us with athleticism, pace and the quality of their passing.

But we are doing ok and I hope we have a good transfer window to fuel improvements.

Despite all his detractors, I think Warne & his team generally get "it right" - they obviously look very carefully at the opposition before we play  (Forest Green the latest example with high balls into the box) and try to counter this. Whether that was the real reason he went to 3 at the back, or because of Nyambe's absence only he will know but it did help bolster the midfield which was badly outrun by Peterborough in the previous game. A bit shaky at times but it worked out well in the end. It could be argued, I suppose, they take too much account of the opposition instead of just concentrating on our own game, but generally they get it right.

We are doing well enough with the current squad we have. We all want great performances every week with a 5-0 win, but we need to be realistic with the current squad we have - still lack of pace and aggression in some areas. A bit of patience is required.

Lets all hope we have a great second half to the season and get behind all the "team" (particularly the non-favourites Bradley, Collins, Warne, Hourihan et al)

[Archied]

1 hour ago, YorkshireRam said:

Fornah has produced the best bit of close control/skill i've seen this season, while Ward is easily the best crosser of the ball at the club- think you're doing them a disservice by not describing them as technical. Waghorn rattling in a hattrick of classy finishes also doesn't fit this brief; it seems very much like you're trying to bend facts to suit an agenda here... No mention of the recruitment of Wilson who is a flair player that loves to nutmeg people either?

NML is on track to have his most productive season to date? Bird influencing games far more thanks to Warne recognising he could be more effective as an #8 than a #4? Cashin's form under Warne has been outstanding (barring the early blip) and he's a very technical centre half, consistently preferred to marquee signing Bradley. Again, I'd argue Warne has improved our technical players as much as anyone else.

Yep and mc g had his best season ever under warne 🤷‍♂️

[YorkshireRam]

8 minutes ago, Millenniumram said:

I don’t remember that from Fornah, irrespective he’s been poor otherwise. Ward has also been pretty woeful, despite a few good crosses. Waghorn is a good player, but technically gifted he is not. Most of his signings have not been what I was call “footballers”. Even Wilson, who I rate highly, is still quite direct (not that that’s a problem of course!) - same goes for Mendez-Laing, who is definitely having an excellent season.

Not saying Warne isn’t getting the best out of some players, he clearly is. But I’d still say the “footballers” he could get more out of. Bird had a great game at the weekend, but I think he could be way more effective if we played through the middle more often. Same goes for Sibley who is rarely given a chance. And Barkhuizen who often seems to be unfairly left out the team.

'Direct' and 'technical' are not correlated so struggling to see your point there. You don't score the 3rd v Peterborough (A) bending it round the keeper like that without being technically gifted. If you disagree, let's take a ball to the park and see how many attempts it takes us to recreate in a completely unpressured situation 😂

Who are you referring to, and what more would you need to see out of them (highlighted bit)? Barkhuizen has been handled perfectly, and his G/A seriously flatters him; I'm still annoyed at the complete apathy to track the runner and stop the cross v Portsmouth which led directly to their equaliser. Sibley I rate but hasn't done enough to be a starter yet. Just curious what you'd be wanting to see to maybe flip your opinion to a wholly positive one? More wins always help I guess!

 

[Ambitious]

Warneball is built on a philosophy of catching the opposition unsettled, out-of-position. Creating overloads in wide positions and a high press. 

The mechanics to it have proven to be, somewhat, disjointed and inconsistent but I think the messaging he puts across is very consistent. The problem that we have had is that in a rush to catch the opposition out of position and forcing overloads that it's sometimes led to us shooting ourselves in the foot. 

I said previously that I can't remember a manager so reckless in how he sets the team up, typically you want your team to be in shape and settled and continue to work the ball slowly, waiting for the opposition to have a lapse in concentration. What we do, you can't plan - it's a philosophy predicated on chaos and I can see why it's effective and I can see the downfall. 

You have Stevenage & others, who play 'long-ball' which is typically get the ball into the opposition half and play from there. A big man upfront, into midfield and solid base to counter any opposition attacks. You have teams who play the ball around, like Bolton, who control the game, starve the opposition of the ball and work themselves up the pitch. 

We play like an Aldi version of Liverpool, without the explosiveness or ability, albeit it's enough at this level to pick up wins. We're now up-to-speed and teams, especially the less equipped teams, just don't have the capacity to deal with the intensity when on form. 

[RoyMac5]

22 minutes ago, Ambitious said:

Warneball is built on a philosophy of catching the opposition unsettled, out-of-position. Creating overloads in wide positions and a high press. 

The mechanics to it have proven to be, somewhat, disjointed and inconsistent but I think the messaging he puts across is very consistent. The problem that we have had is that in a rush to catch the opposition out of position and forcing overloads that it's sometimes led to us shooting ourselves in the foot. 

I said previously that I can't remember a manager so reckless in how he sets the team up, typically you want your team to be in shape and settled and continue to work the ball slowly, waiting for the opposition to have a lapse in concentration. What we do, you can't plan - it's a philosophy predicated on chaos and I can see why it's effective and I can see the downfall. 

You have Stevenage & others, who play 'long-ball' which is typically get the ball into the opposition half and play from there. A big man upfront, into midfield and solid base to counter any opposition attacks. You have teams who play the ball around, like Bolton, who control the game, starve the opposition of the ball and work themselves up the pitch. 

We play like an Aldi version of Liverpool, without the explosiveness or ability, albeit it's enough at this level to pick up wins. We're now up-to-speed and teams, especially the less equipped teams, just don't have the capacity to deal with the intensity when on form. 

That first bit sounds like Warne speaks it. So why does so much of his play seem to depend solely on getting the ball wide - that's structured not chaotic? 

[On the Ram Page]

1 hour ago, Ambitious said:

Warneball is built on a philosophy of catching the opposition unsettled, out-of-position. Creating overloads in wide positions and a high press. 

The mechanics to it have proven to be, somewhat, disjointed and inconsistent but I think the messaging he puts across is very consistent. The problem that we have had is that in a rush to catch the opposition out of position and forcing overloads that it's sometimes led to us shooting ourselves in the foot. 

I said previously that I can't remember a manager so reckless in how he sets the team up, typically you want your team to be in shape and settled and continue to work the ball slowly, waiting for the opposition to have a lapse in concentration. What we do, you can't plan - it's a philosophy predicated on chaos and I can see why it's effective and I can see the downfall. 

You have Stevenage & others, who play 'long-ball' which is typically get the ball into the opposition half and play from there. A big man upfront, into midfield and solid base to counter any opposition attacks. You have teams who play the ball around, like Bolton, who control the game, starve the opposition of the ball and work themselves up the pitch. 

We play like an Aldi version of Liverpool, without the explosiveness or ability, albeit it's enough at this level to pick up wins. We're now up-to-speed and teams, especially the less equipped teams, just don't have the capacity to deal with the intensity when on form. 

Can’t say I agree with a lot in your first 3 paragraphs. But if you say we play like an Aldi version of Liverpool whilst we are in League One, I will take that. When and if we get promoted we can improve to Sainsbury’s and then the season after to Waitrose. Even in recent blind tastings with Sainsbury’s and Fortnum & Mason, Aldi came out top on quite a few products.

[RodleyRam]

1 hour ago, RoyMac5 said:

That first bit sounds like Warne speaks it. So why does so much of his play seem to depend solely on getting the ball wide - that's structured not chaotic? 

I'd be interested to know from a heat map or touch analysis to confirm whether the 'we only play out wide' assessment of our play is correct.

I would personally say from my observation that we have quite a mix of styles from slow build up and possession from deep, to more direct, quicker approach. I don't think this has always been appropriate to the in-game situation i.e. sometimes we're slow and cumbersome when we should be quicker and sometimes we need to put our foot on the ball and gain control but I don't think we  religiously stick to one style of play. I don't see us militantly smashing it down the channels and get crosses in game in game out but it's just an observation without statistical analysis. I've seen us pass it through there middle, play triangles and create some lovely openings with one touch and movement. We have also scored from crosses and going direct. I don't think Warneball is exclusively one thing... It's too reductive to say so.

Perhaps one of our resident stat people could tell us where the ball is in our possession most.

I'm also not sure I fully agree with @Ambitiousassessment that we are chaotic, last season I would agree. At times we look exposed in the middle of the park when we play 2 in the middle but I don't know if that's chaos or a result of those players physical deficiencies or a failure to press as collectively as we should. I think it would look less chaotic if we added another CM against the better sides but I also don't think slow control of possession is necessarily the answer. We succeeded at Oxford because we pressed and moved the ball quickly, which exploited gaps and never let them gain control of them ball. It's difficult to maintain that level of energy week in week out though, which is why I think we need to continue to be adaptable and seek to control and dominate games using different approaches.

Edited January 8 by RodleyRam

[davenportram]

5 hours ago, IslandExile said:

I think it's changed - the ball is played to feet a lot more, rather than just pumped down the channels in hope.

Consequently, we retain the ball more, stretch the opposition and create more and better chances.

I'm all for it 🐏

By saying it’s done more you recognise that we tried it at times in the past. Perhaps that’s the real desire of Warne but we weren’t able to due player confidence, ability and fitness to keep playing that way for 90 minutes.  

[IslandExile]

35 minutes ago, davenportram said:

By saying it’s done more you recognise that we tried it at times in the past. Perhaps that’s the real desire of Warne but we weren’t able to due player confidence, ability and fitness to keep playing that way for 90 minutes.  

Or maybe Warne simply realised he had to adapt tactics to the players available.

Either way, I'm glad of the transition.