Has Warbeball really changed (not negative just a question)

[Elwood P Dowd]

9 minutes ago, IslandExile said:

Or maybe Warne simply realised he had to adapt tactics to the players available.

Either way, I'm glad of the transition.

👍🏻👍🏻

Something has changed PW has NML playing some of the best football of his career. Perhaps playing to your players strengths is a good idea.

PW has Collins staying in between the goal posts rather than being out on the wing, Collins is an awful winger but he’s been very effective playing in the Centre forward role👍🏻

We don’t seem to be booting the ball up the pitch as much as we did and this makes us a much more difficult team to play against. 

[Archied]

4 hours ago, RodleyRam said:

I'd be interested to know from a heat map or touch analysis to confirm whether the 'we only play out wide' assessment of our play is correct.

I would personally say from my observation that we have quite a mix of styles from slow build up and possession from deep, to more direct, quicker approach. I don't think this has always been appropriate to the in-game situation i.e. sometimes we're slow and cumbersome when we should be quicker and sometimes we need to put our foot on the ball and gain control but I don't think we  religiously stick to one style of play. I don't see us militantly smashing it down the channels and get crosses in game in game out but it's just an observation without statistical analysis. I've seen us pass it through there middle, play triangles and create some lovely openings with one touch and movement. We have also scored from crosses and going direct. I don't think Warneball is exclusively one thing... It's too reductive to say so.

Perhaps one of our resident stat people could tell us where the ball is in our possession most.

I'm also not sure I fully agree with @Ambitiousassessment that we are chaotic, last season I would agree. At times we look exposed in the middle of the park when we play 2 in the middle but I don't know if that's chaos or a result of those players physical deficiencies or a failure to press as collectively as we should. I think it would look less chaotic if we added another CM against the better sides but I also don't think slow control of possession is necessarily the answer. We succeeded at Oxford because we pressed and moved the ball quickly, which exploited gaps and never let them gain control of them ball. It's difficult to maintain that level of energy week in week out though, which is why I think we need to continue to be adaptable and seek to control and dominate games using different approaches.

That’s pretty much what I see too🤷‍♂️

[Comrade 86]

8 hours ago, Millenniumram said:

Most of his signings have not been what I was call “footballers”. 

[May Contain Nuts]

We've just furthered our transformation to 2021-22 Rotherham is all, if Bradley had worked out as intended we'd probably be there by now.

Yes we can knock the ball around playing the odd triangle here and there and apply pressure more consistently, so we aren't just 'lumping it to the wings' (we only ever really resorted to that out of desperation anyway) but make no mistake the vast majority (I'll call it 70/80%)  of our play is still (and moreso than last season) centered around working the ball out wide and it's still very predictable - just more effective.

You'd still be hard pushed to say we look like a cohesive attacking unit when doing anything other than working it wide, our good play still tends to 'break out' from from otherwise mediocre performances  rather than feeling fully rehearsed, and our best moments still come from individual players proving their class in ways other League One teams simply can't deal with.

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

6 minutes ago, May Contain Nuts said:

We've just furthered our transformation to 2021-22 Rotherham is all, if Bradley had worked out as intended we'd probably be there by now.

Yes we can knock the ball around playing the odd triangle here and there and apply pressure more consistently, so we aren't just 'lumping it to the wings' (we only ever really resorted to that out of desperation anyway) but make no mistake the vast majority (I'll call it 70/80%)  of our play is still (and moreso than last season) centered around working the ball out wide and it's still very predictable - just more effective.

You'd still be hard pushed to say we look like a cohesive attacking unit when doing anything other than working it wide, our good play still tends to 'break out' from from otherwise mediocre performances  rather than feeling fully rehearsed, and our best moments still come from individual players proving their class in ways other League One teams simply can't deal with.

For an example of what a cohesive attacking unit looks like the Peterborough game at PP is a great example. Their attacking unit knew how to pull our defenders out of position, then put people in the spaces that opened up. When we go forward it's usually involving the ball being worked out wide, or us countering against a team that has committed too many men up the pitch. When we are advancing against a team that has retained it's shape we don't really have many ideas a lot of the time, barring a bit of individual brilliance.

In League One we can pretty much brute force it with better players against most of the division. My concern remains how this translates to the Championship where most of the teams up there are capable of playing a bit of decent football.

[SamUltraRam]

By the end of the month, Warne is going to have a pleasant problem - how to keep the squad players happy

Once Nyambe is back, the 6 outfield players selected for the bench will be fully loaded

Bradley, Ward, Elder, Smith, Fornah, Thompson, Sibley, Barkhuizen, John-Jules, Waghorn - only Washington & Rooney missing long term

4 of those 10 will not even make the matchday squad which is crazy strength for this level - plus we may make additions in January

[On the Ram Page]

4 minutes ago, SamUltraRam said:

By the end of the month, Warne is going to have a pleasant problem - how to keep the squad players happy

Once Nyambe is back, the 6 outfield players selected for the bench will be fully loaded

Bradley, Ward, Elder, Smith, Fornah, Thompson, Sibley, Barkhuizen, John-Jules, Waghorn - only Washington & Rooney missing long term

4 of those 10 will not even make the matchday squad which is crazy strength for this level - plus we may make additions in January

Less any leavers. Hopefully players out of contract will be looking to impress to get a new contract in the Championship.

[YorkshireRam]

28 minutes ago, May Contain Nuts said:

You'd still be hard pushed to say we look like a cohesive attacking unit when doing anything other than working it wide, our good play still tends to 'break out' from from otherwise mediocre performances  rather than feeling fully rehearsed, and our best moments still come from individual players proving their class in ways other League One teams simply can't deal with.

I'd say we looked like a cohesive attacking unit for the first goal on Saturday- one touch stuff, neat flicks, tidy finish. That was through the middle of the park? Same with the third, though less players involved in the build-up

Maybe we're still on a downward trend of seeing less of the predictable 'work it out wide and cross' gameplan. We've definitely stopped lumping diagonals as much as we did at the start of the season, so maybe this is the next step, and we're still not quite the finished article?

[trappatoni]

33 minutes ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said:

For an example of what a cohesive attacking unit looks like the Peterborough game at PP is a great example. Their attacking unit knew how to pull our defenders out of position, then put people in the spaces that opened up. 

Yes it was very noticeable their wide attackers, FBs and midfield had some well rehearsed patterns of play and it was hard not to conclude we'd been out coached.   That said we are pretty much level with Peterborough so some other teams must combat their way of playing better than we did.   We are quite an attacking team - I think that played into their hands - in hindsight if we'd set more of a low block their runners would just be running into traffic and I thought their defence looked susceptible.

[May Contain Nuts]

34 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said:

I'd say we looked like a cohesive attacking unit for the first goal on Saturday- one touch stuff, neat flicks, tidy finish. That was through the middle of the park? Same with the third, though less players involved in the build-up

Maybe we're still on a downward trend of seeing less of the predictable 'work it out wide and cross' gameplan. We've definitely stopped lumping diagonals as much as we did at the start of the season, so maybe this is the next step, and we're still not quite the finished article?

I'd say the first goal was the result of good pressing and opportunism - I do think we work better now as a unit in that regard as last season and early this it didn't seem like a very organised press at all - but not cohesive or rehearsed attacking play, the passes are players on the stretch getting what they can on the ball, not 'fancy flicks', it wasn't a planned move to my eyes.

The third goal is all about Bird running down the channel and pulling it across, I still just about Include that goal as one fom a wide area tbh (it's teetering on the verge of 'down the middle'), just because it wasn't from outside the box doesn't mean it wasn't still a cross.

I do agree things are improving in the manner you say though, generally.

Edited January 9 by May Contain Nuts

[Eddie]

1 hour ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said:

My concern remains how this translates to the Championship where most of the teams up there are capable of playing a bit of decent football.

Classic case of wanting to run before you can walk. It's the baseball bat with barbed wire wrapped around it which quite a few 'early season Warne haters' use now, because they just cannot give any credit whatsoever.

[May Contain Nuts]

Rather that than give someone undue and excess credit when they haven't actually achieved anything with us.

It's all set up for him to succeeed, and if he fulfills his remit of getting us up and keeping us up he'll receive all the credit due, at least from me.

Until then, he's proved nothing.

Edited January 9 by May Contain Nuts

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

20 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Classic case of wanting to run before you can walk. It's the baseball bat with barbed wire wrapped around it which quite a few 'early season Warne haters' use now, because they just cannot give any credit whatsoever.

Warne is getting plenty of credit for our form on this forum, including from people who previously wanted him out. We are a team chasing promotion, which is to Warne's credit. It is an entirely valid discussion point to consider how the way we are playing football will translate to a higher division should we reach it.

I could just as easily turn around and say that anyone that wanted Warne out is now having any form of criticism shouted down, no matter how valid, because they have somehow been proven wrong and should be eating so much humble pie they can't even speak. Warne is currently doing a very good job, if he continues to do a very good job we may get promoted. Will what he is doing be enough for us to meet our objectives if that happens? Some people might think it is, I remain unconvinced.

[Day]

3 pages in and nobody is addressing the elephant in the room here.....

What exactly is Warbeball?

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

7 minutes ago, David said:

3 pages in and nobody is addressing the elephant in the room here.....

What exactly is Warbeball?

I was too busy regurgitating my own (absolutely correct and irrefutable) arguments from two months ago to even notice that typo.

Sounds like an exotic bird to me.

[RoyMac5]

1 hour ago, May Contain Nuts said:

I'd say the first goal was the result of good pressing and opportunism - I do think we work better now as a unit in that regard as last season and early this it didn't seem like a very organised press at all - but not cohesive or rehearsed attacking play, the passes are players on the stretch getting what they can on the ball, not 'fancy flicks', it wasn't a planned move to my eyes.

The third goal is all about Bird running down the channel and pulling it across, I still just about Include that goal as one fom a wide area tbh (it's teetering on the verge of 'down the middle'), just because it wasn't from outside the box doesn't mean it wasn't still a cross.

I do agree things are improving in the manner you say though, generally.

I seem to remember we actually had a freekick that was a shot on goal, although Hourihane's shot was poor. It stands out for it's rarity not is quality! 😄

[On the Ram Page]

1 hour ago, May Contain Nuts said:

Rather that than give someone undue and excess credit when they haven't actually achieved anything with us.

It's all set up for him to succeeed, and if he fulfills his remit of getting us up and keeping us up he'll receive all the credit due, at least from me.

Until then, he's proved nothing.

So the only managers we’ve had that deserve any credit are Clough, MacKay, Cox, Smith & Davies?

[YorkshireRam]

36 minutes ago, May Contain Nuts said:

I'd say the first goal was the result of good pressing and opportunism - I do think we work better now as a unit in that regard as last season and early this it didn't seem like a very organised press at all - but not cohesive or rehearsed attacking play, the passes are players on the stretch getting what they can on the ball, not 'fancy flicks', it wasn't a planned move to my eyes.

The third goal is all about Bird running down the channel and pulling it across, I still just about Include that goal as one fom a wide area tbh (it's teetering on the verge of 'down the middle'), just because it wasn't from outside the box doesn't mean it wasn't still a cross.

I do agree things are improving in the manner you say though, generally.

Ah gotcha, like premeditated patterns of play. Yeah I agree on this front, was definitely more noticeable earlier in the season that we sometimes didn't look like we knew what to do when in possession. 

Now i'm thinking out loud here, what if putting it into the channels to cross is just a vague blueprint which the end goal is to deviate from? As in, create that first instinct in the players so we have an established pattern of play, then trust once it's working that the players are smart enough to know when to change it up and break through the middle?

There's so much about high-level coaching that I know absolutely nothing about, I'd love to spend a day amongst training just to see what goes on, gets talked about, focused on etc.

[Returning ram]

2 hours ago, Eddie said:

Classic case of wanting to run before you can walk. It's the baseball bat with barbed wire wrapped around it which quite a few 'early season Warne haters' use now, because they just cannot give any credit whatsoever.

Looks like he might get us up now, so we are now are judging him on something that can't be argued.

If he gets us promoted he will be doing something that only a handful of Derby managers have ever done.

[May Contain Nuts]

29 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said:

Now i'm thinking out loud here, what if putting it into the channels to cross is just a vague blueprint which the end goal is to deviate from? As in, create that first instinct in the players so we have an established pattern of play, then trust once it's working that the players are smart enough to know when to change it up and break through the middle?

There's so much about high-level coaching that I know absolutely nothing about, I'd love to spend a day amongst training just to see what goes on, gets talked about, focused on etc.

I think that's a good point and I can definitely get on board with that line of thinking.

I've not really got a problem with how play tbh, I just see it as very much a means to an end. If the plan is to evolve it into something more all-ecompassing that would be great. I'm just not convinced from what I've seen that that is the plan but being ever more effective buys more time to prove me wrong.

Edited January 9 by May Contain Nuts