May Contain Nuts Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 (edited) 51 minutes ago, On the Ram Page said: So the only managers we’ve had that deserve any credit are Clough, MacKay, Cox, Smith & Davies? Not at all. It depends on the job they've been given to do, the difficulty off it, the level of competition they're up against, the spending power of direct competitors, outside (or insde!) interference ie how much they've been backed by the board (not just moneywise), and a whole lot of of other things. 42 minutes ago, Returning ram said: Looks like he might get us up now, so we are now are judging him on something that can't be argued. If he gets us promoted he will be doing something that only a handful of Derby managers have ever done. Not even a handful, just a couple. Harry Storer Jnr & Arthur Cox. And even then, getting promoted from Division 3 wouldn't put him in pantheon of Cox or any other manager who's got us promoted into the top division. That would be the excess or undue credit I mentioned. He's started doing the job expected of him, no more, no less, after his 15th month in charge. Edited January 9 by May Contain Nuts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 46 minutes ago, Returning ram said: Looks like he might get us up now, so we are now are judging him on something that can't be argued. If he gets us promoted he will be doing something that only a handful of Derby managers have ever needed to do. FIFY Comrade 86 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angieram Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 23 minutes ago, May Contain Nuts said: I've not really got a problem with how play tbh, I just see it as very much a means to an end. Like scoring goals? 😉 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Returning ram Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 1 minute ago, RoyMac5 said: FIFY Ey ? You know how long we have been in the lower divisions don't you ? Steve Mac failed, Lampard, I could go on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Returning ram Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 9 minutes ago, May Contain Nuts said: Not even a handful, just a couple. Harry Storer Jnr & Arthur Cox. And even then, getting promoted from Division 3 wouldn't put him in pantheon of Cox or any other manager who's got us promoted into the top division. That would be the excess or undue credit I mentioned. He's started doing the job expected of him, no more, no less, after his 15th month in charge. Promoted as in any division. And in your opinion, that's the job you expect of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Contain Nuts Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 (edited) 32 minutes ago, angieram said: Like scoring goals? 😉 Exactly, and the evidence points to it working, at least against this level of defence, hence no real issue with it in the short term, but a hope it evolves. 28 minutes ago, Returning ram said: Promoted as in any division. And in your opinion, that's the job you expect of him. I'm only basing mine on the noises coming out from the club. The talk pre-season was that we expected to be challlenging for promotion, and that the manager has been given a suitable budget to make that achievable. He's been apppointed on the strength of his experience at doing just that. What job do you suppose is expected of him other than to be challenging for and ultimately achieving promotion? Why should I expect any less? Especially when looking at the state of most of our opponents. If we have a promotion worthy budget, and someone brought in due to their expertise in achieving promotion, then not achieving promotion must be falling below expectation. It's not the end of the world if we don't go up this season, but it would be bitterly disappointing to face another season at this level. If we were runaway leaders at the top of the league I'd say he's achieving something above expectations, but we're not. Edited January 9 by May Contain Nuts HorsforthRam, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong, TINMANTED and 1 other 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Returning ram Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 9 minutes ago, May Contain Nuts said: Exactly, and the evidence points to it working, at least against this level of defence, hence no real issue with it in the short term, but a hope it evolves. I'm only basing mine on the noises coming out from the club. The talk pre-season was that we expected to be challlenging for promotion, and that the manager has been given a suitable budget to make that achievable. He's been apppointed on the strength of his experience at doing just that. What job do you suppose is expected of him other than to be challenging for and ultimately achieving promotion? Why should I expect any less? Especially when looking at the state of most of our opponents. If we have a promotion worthy budget, and someone brought in due to their expertise in achieving promotion, then not achieving promotion must be falling below expectation. It's not the end of the world if we don't go up this season, but it would be bitterly disappointing to face another season at this level. If we were runaway leaders at the top of the league I'd say he's achieving something above expectations, but we're not. Pre season ? You said he has started doing the job expected of him after 15 months in charge, at no point has the person employed from him set an expected timeframe for promotion, unless I have missed it. We haven't even completed two seasons after a complete rebuilding exercise and some wouldn't judge success as him getting promoted this season. Three clubs get promoted, that's it, big clubs have stayed in the league longer and now the barometer for some is that he needs to get us promoted and then stay in the league above. That's why as I say, it's your opinion, you may feel it justified, fair enough, however for me getting out this division would be a great success. FlyBritishMidland 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 (edited) 50 minutes ago, Returning ram said: Ey ? You know how long we have been in the lower divisions don't you ? Steve Mac failed, Lampard, I could go on. Lol. Not this low - you do know that don't you. How many recent Derby managers have managed in League 1 (as is now)? Edited January 9 by RoyMac5 Comrade 86 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Returning ram Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 1 hour ago, RoyMac5 said: Lol. Not this low - you do know that don't you. How many recent Derby managers have managed in League 1 (as is now)? What has that do to with number of managers getting Derby promoted? it's all relative, before you say about the standard, Lampard had a big budget along with future international stars, SM inherited a fantastic squad to fail twice when the odds were in his favour. As the numbers confirm, getting a team is not as easy as some make out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Contain Nuts Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 (edited) 1 hour ago, Returning ram said: Pre season ? You said he has started doing the job expected of him after 15 months in charge, at no point has the person employed from him set an expected timeframe for promotion, unless I have missed it. We haven't even completed two seasons after a complete rebuilding exercise and some wouldn't judge success as him getting promoted this season. Three clubs get promoted, that's it, big clubs have stayed in the league longer and now the barometer for some is that he needs to get us promoted and then stay in the league above. That's why as I say, it's your opinion, you may feel it justified, fair enough, however for me getting out this division would be a great success. The stated aim is to be an 'established Championship club' (which to me means one looking to kick on / start thinking about a further promotion) within 5 years of the takeover - so by the end of the 2026/27 season we should be thinking of aiming toward the 2027/28 Championship play-offs. Admittedly it does depend what you think Clowes means by an established Championship club, but I don't think I'm being unfair to suggest that a club with ambition should be looking at these timescales. To do that, realistically we either need to get promoted this season or next. If we got promoted this season I'd expect that to take the form of 2024/25 - Struggle (but succeed!) in a battle against relegation (18th-21st) 2025/26 - Safe in lower mid table (13th-17th) 2026/27 - Upper mid table finish (8th-12th) = Fully achieving the target If promoted next season instead 2025/26 - Struggle (but succeed!) in a battle against relegation (18th-21st) 2026/27 - Safe in lower mid table (13th-17th) = Still good, a little behind my intepretation of the target but we have something to build on If we fail to gain promotion by the end of 2024/25 (or get promoted this season, but come straight back down) it's 2025/26 - Get promoted from League One (/again) 2026/27 - Struggle (but succeed!) in a battle against relegation (18th-21st) = falling short of the target. In simple terms though, you just don't appoint Warne as manager and give him all the fanfare unless you expect him to be able to get us promoted at the earliest convenience. Edited January 9 by May Contain Nuts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Returning ram Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 (edited) 47 minutes ago, May Contain Nuts said: The stated aim is to be an 'established Championship club' (which to me means one looking to kick on / start thinking about a further promotion) within 5 years of the takeover - so by the end of the 2026/27 season we should be thinking of aiming toward the 2027/28 Championship play-offs. When did he say this ? I have spent a while (well ok 10 mins) looking for this and can only find short term aim. Will be interesting to read what his ambitions are, TIA Edited January 9 by Returning ram Didn't mean to put a laughing face Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Contain Nuts Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Returning ram said: When did he say this ? I have spent a while (well ok 10 mins) looking for this and can only find short term aim. Will be interesting to read what his ambitions are, TIA It was the Marketing Derby interview, page 22 https://heyzine.com/flip-book/8867b12b48.html#page/22 Obviously it's an ambition more than a hard deadline, but it tells us what we're working towards. Quote "Within 5 seasons we want to be established in the Championship and then perhaps thinking of the next step. But the important thing, above everything else is just to have a stable and healthy football club" "Paul totally agrees that is very doable" David says Edited January 9 by May Contain Nuts Returning ram 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Returning ram Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 26 minutes ago, May Contain Nuts said: It was the Marketing Derby interview, page 22 https://heyzine.com/flip-book/8867b12b48.html#page/22 Obviously it's an ambition more than a hard deadline, but it tells us what we're working towards. Thanks, that's the thing for me, he hasn't set expectations, only an aim. I listened to his interview, it's interesting how a good budget has been perceived to equate to the best (not saying it isn't) however what caught me most, was his willingness to accept that this is football and things don't always work out the way you want. Completely different to our previous owner, who appeared on TV starting it's not "if" but "when" we get promoted. That for me is why I believe stability is needed within the club and why even if in 4 seasons time we are a doing what Clough did and showing little signs of improvement season on season, DC will see that as a success. May Contain Nuts 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 (edited) 1 hour ago, Returning ram said: What has that do to with number of managers getting Derby promoted? it's all relative, before you say about the standard, Lampard had a big budget along with future international stars, SM inherited a fantastic squad to fail twice when the odds were in his favour. As the numbers confirm, getting a team is not as easy as some make out. Getting to the very top is harder than getting to the middle. If you can't see that we have the resources to get promoted from this league, and Warne failed last season then that's your view. He's playing at a different standard to all of our previous, relatively recent, managers. His job is easier. Edited January 9 by RoyMac5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Returning ram Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 1 minute ago, RoyMac5 said: Getting to the very top is harder than getting to the middle. If you can't see that we have the resources to get promoted from this league, and Warne failed last season then that's your view. He's playing at a different standard to all of our previous, relatively recent, managers. His job is easier. Your missing the point, it's mine and Clowes view 😏 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 Just now, Returning ram said: Your missing the point, it's mine and Clowes view 😏 Neither of you have more football manager experience than I do though. 😄 👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Returning ram Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 Just now, RoyMac5 said: Neither of you have more football manager experience than I do though. 😄 👍 Id argue that Clowes knows a lot more about how to run a successful business though, now sure why football manager experience even comes into the equation. Unless your Joey Barton of course 😏 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavesaRam Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 5 hours ago, YorkshireRam said: Ah gotcha, like premeditated patterns of play. Yeah I agree on this front, was definitely more noticeable earlier in the season that we sometimes didn't look like we knew what to do when in possession. Now i'm thinking out loud here, what if putting it into the channels to cross is just a vague blueprint which the end goal is to deviate from? As in, create that first instinct in the players so we have an established pattern of play, then trust once it's working that the players are smart enough to know when to change it up and break through the middle? There's so much about high-level coaching that I know absolutely nothing about, I'd love to spend a day amongst training just to see what goes on, gets talked about, focused on etc. From Yorkshire, eh? With your own pair of binoculars and some wire cutters? Say no more!!! Nudge, nudge! Wink, wink! It was you, wasn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YorkshireRam Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 16 hours ago, DavesaRam said: From Yorkshire, eh? With your own pair of binoculars and some wire cutters? Say no more!!! Nudge, nudge! Wink, wink! It was you, wasn't it? DavesaRam 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomsdubs Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 I am really not a fan of the playing style in all honesty, when we don't play well it is horrendous to watch. Think we get battered in the Champ if we go up playing this way. I am hoping he proves me wrong obviously but we've been here before on a good run, needs midfield energy ASAP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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