Warne Out Out

[Andicis]

25 minutes ago, Gerry Daly said:

I think we have been through the reasons why we should get rid of Warne at some length so pointless to repeat it. I think is useful though to look at the four reasons that are given for keeping him. These are either used on their own or in combination

1. We should be be proper supporters and GET BEHIND OUR TEAM. This gets generally mixed together with supporting Warne because he's the manager and because its about supporting the project and supporting David Clowes. All this MOANING AND NEGATIVITY isn't helping at all and we should recognise that we are in fact 7th on the verge of the play offs. If we were all pulling together and supporting our team

2. We CAN'T AFFORD  to pay him and all his staff off

3. We should not keep CHOPPING AND CHANGING managers and we need to give him time. We are partly in the mess we are because we kept chopping and changing

4. This is a MASSIVE LONG TERM JOB BECAUSE OF ADMINISTRATION and those that think there can be a quick fix are DELUDED  

 There may be a fifth in that some people claim to know David Clowes mind and believe he has no intention of getting rid come what may. There is an element of truth to 1 and 3 but I don't believe any of these points are stronger than the evidence that Warne is the wrong man for the job. Also I don't believe 2 and 4 to be true anyway    

1.) Fans respond to the football that is served up. They'll get behind the team if the team gives them something to cheer about, it's the same for all clubs. 

2.) I'd love to see your numbers to back this up.

3.) Mistakes in the past don't necessarily equate to future mistakes. Sticking with a manager purely because we should have stuck with managers in the past would be daft.

4.) Why is it? We have one of the biggest budgets in the league and a squad that should be able to compete with any in this division. That's just your opinion. We're building back up sure, but why do we have to just accept it'll take a huge amount of time, we're entirely placed to be competitive. 

[Ghost of Clough]

11 minutes ago, Gerry Daly said:

I think we have been through the reasons why we should get rid of Warne at some length so pointless to repeat it. I think is useful though to look at the four reasons that are given for keeping him. These are either used on their own or in combination

1. We should be be proper supporters and GET BEHIND OUR TEAM. This gets generally mixed together with supporting Warne because he's the manager and because its about supporting the project and supporting David Clowes. All this MOANING AND NEGATIVITY isn't helping at all and we should recognise that we are in fact 7th on the verge of the play offs. If we were all pulling together and supporting our team

2. We CAN'T AFFORD  to pay him and all his staff off

3. We should not keep CHOPPING AND CHANGING managers and we need to give him time. We are partly in the mess we are because we kept chopping and changing

4. This is a MASSIVE LONG TERM JOB BECAUSE OF ADMINISTRATION and those that think there can be a quick fix are DELUDED  

 There may be a fifth in that some people claim to know David Clowes mind and believe he has no intention of getting rid come what may. There is an element of truth to 1 and 3 but I don't believe any of these points are stronger than the evidence that Warne is the wrong man for the job. Also I don't believe 2 and 4 to be true anyway    

I don't believe any of them to be 'true'

1. I can criticise a manager (or player) but still support the team on matchday
2. I highly doubt Clowes doesn't have a contingency plan in case he felt he needed to sack any member of staff
3. We're "in this mess" because our former owner agreed to spend more than he could actually afford. If we had changed managers just as often, but with a style of play in mind and a sensible budget, we wouldn't have gone into administration.
4. A manager willing to look at the long term picture by recruiting accordingly and introducing academy prospects is looking at the long term picture. 

[Tamworthram]

15 minutes ago, Gerry Daly said:

I think we have been through the reasons why we should get rid of Warne at some length so pointless to repeat it. I think is useful though to look at the four reasons that are given for keeping him. These are either used on their own or in combination

1. We should be be proper supporters and GET BEHIND OUR TEAM. This gets generally mixed together with supporting Warne because he's the manager and because its about supporting the project and supporting David Clowes. All this MOANING AND NEGATIVITY isn't helping at all and we should recognise that we are in fact 7th on the verge of the play offs. If we were all pulling together and supporting our team

2. We CAN'T AFFORD  to pay him and all his staff off

3. We should not keep CHOPPING AND CHANGING managers and we need to give him time. We are partly in the mess we are because we kept chopping and changing

4. This is a MASSIVE LONG TERM JOB BECAUSE OF ADMINISTRATION and those that think there can be a quick fix are DELUDED  

 There may be a fifth in that some people claim to know David Clowes mind and believe he has no intention of getting rid come what may. There is an element of truth to 1 and 3 but I don't believe any of these points are stronger than the evidence that Warne is the wrong man for the job. Also I don't believe 2 and 4 to be true anyway    

As you say, a pretty pointless exercise as both the reasons given for getting rid of him and those for keeping him have already been discussed at length. Also, the fifth point (sort of) is the critical one. Whatever is in DC's head is what really matter. It's up to him as to whether point 2 is true or not and if he sees this as a long term project. Whether points 1 and 3 are stronger than the reasons for getting rid of him are, of course, matters of opinion. As is point 4.

By the way, has anyone said they believe DC has no intention of getting rid "come what may" or just that they don't believe he's anywhere near that trigger point at the moment? Some, myself included, have suggested (not claiming to know DC's mind by the way as you say) that we don't think just missing out on promotion (i.e. falling at the play offs stage) will be enough to see him gone but it might be a different story if we were flirting with the relegation battle or even just way off reaching the play offs.

 

[duncanjwitham]

39 minutes ago, Gerry Daly said:

3. We should not keep CHOPPING AND CHANGING managers and we need to give him time. We are partly in the mess we are because we kept chopping and changing

4. This is a MASSIVE LONG TERM JOB BECAUSE OF ADMINISTRATION and those that think there can be a quick fix are DELUDED  

We are already suffering from 3.  We actively chose to go there the moment we let Rosenior build a possession-based team and replaced him 10 games later with a guy that wanted to play very directly.  And despite a dozen or so summer signings, I *still* think that we have a squad that is more suited to playing possession football than WarneBall.  It will take less squad chopping and changing to get a new manager in to play some kind of possession football (it doesn't have to be exactly what Rosenior was trying to use) than to let Warne build the team he actually wants.  And I am fully aware that we have a lot of players out of contract in the summer, but I honestly think that with a different manager, there's a decent chance we get to keep a fair chunk of those if we want to.

And as for 4, see point 3 really.  We looked at what happened under Morris (in terms of squad upheaval, if not finances) and decided to just repeat that all over again.

[Gerry Daly]

22 minutes ago, Archied said:

So basically the reasons to get rid by rubbishing any reasons to keep him😂,

creative if nothing else

No I said at the outset that the reasons for getting rid are strong, varied and have been rehearsed many times. Just see David's post a few posts up for an example of where some of the main arguments are well set out. I just thought it would be useful to say the counter arguments don't hold water   

[Tamworthram]

10 minutes ago, Gerry Daly said:

No I said at the outset that the reasons for getting rid are strong, varied and have been rehearsed many times. Just see David's post a few posts up for an example of where some of the main arguments are well set out. I just thought it would be useful to say the counter arguments don't hold water   

Except that you have chosen to diminish the 5th (and potentially most important) point by using phrases like "claim to know David Clowes mind" and "no intention of getting rid come what may".

Do you not think a more realistic 5th point might have been something like: "with the club standing outside of the play offs on goals scored only, DC might believe it would be premature to get rid of PW at the moment. But he could change is mind at some future date if things deteriorated"? 

[Archied]

27 minutes ago, Gerry Daly said:

No I said at the outset that the reasons for getting rid are strong, varied and have been rehearsed many times. Just see David's post a few posts up for an example of where some of the main arguments are well set out. I just thought it would be useful to say the counter arguments don't hold water   

You say potato , I say potayto,,, let’s call the whole thing off

[RoyMac5]

28 minutes ago, Gerry Daly said:

No I said at the outset that the reasons for getting rid are strong, varied and have been rehearsed many times. Just see David's post a few posts up for an example of where some of the main arguments are well set out. I just thought it would be useful to say the counter arguments don't hold water   

Have you taken this statement into account? I find it very depressing to be honest. I'd be interested in another statement from the Club on how they think this is being implemented by Warne.

"Derby said in a statement: “Derby County Football Club are delighted to announce the appointment of Paul Warne as head coach.

“Warne has joined the club with immediate effect on a contract until the summer of 2026.

“As was made clear in the summer, the board intended to take a period of time evaluating every aspect of the club and having done that, we believe Paul’s track record of success at this level fits perfectly into our long-term strategy.”

From another quote:

"Upon joining the club, Warne showed a lot of enthusiasm saying that his end goal was to help the Rams get back to the Premier League, he told Rams TV: “There’s a handful of clubs that aren’t in the Premier League that will get to the Premier League.

“Whether I can play a part in that, a big part, a small part, whether I’m the lucky one that takes them back to the Premier League, that is the ambition of the club.”

So. Long-term strategy and back to the Prem. Can't see much in the squad to reflect either of those points. 

[Gerry Daly]

He has zero chance or capability of either getting us promoted to the PL, or hilarious in prospect, manage us successfully in the PL 

[Stive Pesley]

46 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

Do you not think a more realistic 5th point might have been something like: "with the club standing outside of the play offs on goals scored only, DC might believe it would be premature to get rid of PW at the moment. But he could change is mind at some future date if things deteriorated"? 

I'd say that's spot on

DC would be a moron to sack Warne in Mid-November with our current league position. It'd be the sort of thing we'd take the mick out of other clubs for doing.

Come Feb if we've had a transfer window and we're still this inconsistent and still not consolidated into the play-off spots then that's a different matter

[TINMANTED]

6 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

I'd say that's spot on

DC would be a moron to sack Warne in Mid-November with our current league position. It'd be the sort of thing we'd take the mick out of other clubs for doing.

Come Feb if we've had a transfer window and we're still this inconsistent and still not consolidated into the play-off spots then that's a different matter

and have to replace any players brought in,in jan by warne.dec has to be the cut off if results dont improve,to give a new manager a few games to asses what he needs before the window opens

[nottingram]

5 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

I'd say that's spot on

DC would be a moron to sack Warne in Mid-November with our current league position. It'd be the sort of thing we'd take the mick out of other clubs for doing.

Come Feb if we've had a transfer window and we're still this inconsistent and still not consolidated into the play-off spots then that's a different matter

It depends whether there is truly the belief anything will be different in Feb. If you hold off and we’re still inconsistent it gives someone else barely any time to sort it out. It’s also another window where you might have backed the wrong horse, perhaps expensively given it’s January. I have not seen much evidence arising out of the summer window to leave me confident more transfer windows is what the manager needs. Maybe 3-4 hits out of 12? 

I don’t think people who run football clubs well are worried what fans of other clubs might think. And if I had to guess I doubt many fans of other clubs would look at Derby at the moment and think they were being managed well or making great use of the presumably very healthy resources they have at this level. 

[YorkshireRam]

I feel like some of the expectations on here are totally unrealistic. We're in the weakest playing position in our club's history, coming out of the worst financial period. How are people honestly commenting with straight faces they want full academy inclusion, pretty football, AND promotion form? Surely something has to give?

Rosenior gave us pretty football and youth inclusion, and prior to his departure there were still negative murmurings; so I don't buy the idea that if we incorporated the other elements, it makes on-field success less important somehow and people wouldn't whinge as much.

People going mental over a throwaway comment about youth seemingly forgetting he tried to make both Thompson and Rooney first team regulars before they got injured, promoted and integrated Brown into the first team, hailed Bird as our best player etc. There's stuff to be critical of but some posters do seem hell-bent on just making it seem like an agenda...

 

[RoyMac5]

36 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

I'd say that's spot on

DC would be a moron to sack Warne in Mid-November with our current league position. It'd be the sort of thing we'd take the mick out of other clubs for doing.

Come Feb if we've had a transfer window and we're still this inconsistent and still not consolidated into the play-off spots then that's a different matter

The same league position an 'in-experienced' interim manager got us to? February is too late. Another transfer window along the lines of summer? Neither the ins nor outs from then have made us much stronger - maybe, finally, a right back. Where is our 'long-term strategy' and our Premier League ambition after more than a year of Warne?

[secretsquirrel]

It wont be Warne taking us to the premiership-it will be a long old process based on our past history-4 promotions in 40+ years 

[duncanjwitham]

11 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said:

I feel like some of the expectations on here are totally unrealistic. We're in the weakest playing position in our club's history, coming out of the worst financial period. How are people honestly commenting with straight faces they want full academy inclusion, pretty football, AND promotion form? Surely something has to give?

Rosenior gave us pretty football and youth inclusion, and prior to his departure there were still negative murmurings; so I don't buy the idea that if we incorporated the other elements, it makes on-field success less important somehow and people wouldn't whinge as much.

People going mental over a throwaway comment about youth seemingly forgetting he tried to make both Thompson and Rooney first team regulars before they got injured, promoted and integrated Brown into the first team, hailed Bird as our best player etc. There's stuff to be critical of but some posters do seem hell-bent on just making it seem like an agenda...

 

Well, we currently have none of those things, so... 

We're not demanding the earth, we know where we've come from, and we're not expecting instant success.  What we want is a clear sign that we're actually working towards those things.  Right now, the messages coming from the club are the exact opposite of all of those.  You might disregard that Warne clip as a throwaway comment but it's *really* not, it ties up perfectly with everything he is actually doing on the pitch regarding academy players.  They are at best an after thought.  A bone to be tossed their way if there's nothing important on the line.  He hasn't integrated Brown at all, he's barely had a kick.  Thompson and Rooney were barely used last season, and only used this season after his carefully planned summer transfer spree turned into a complete disaster.  He hails Bird as our best player, then plays him a position where he barely touches the ball half the time.  Likewise, he hails Sibley as our best finisher then never brings him on when we need a goal.  Robinson is apparently so good that Villa and Southampton are looking at him, yet he's barely kicked a ball for us.  Weston scores on his debut, is then denied two obvious opportunities to take his chance and run with it.  The list goes on and on and on.

You can't just say that we're in too much of a mess to integrate academy players, in fact it's the perfect opportunity to do it.  Academy players don't just magically turn into first-team players overnight, they need to introduced slowly into the first team.  Right now, we've got a massively bloated first team squad - if everyone's fit we have 25 first team players (I'm including Thompson and Rooney, but not Robinson, Brown, Weston etc).  Even if you exclude the long-term injured, it's still a huge squad.  Barring an injury crisis, there's no way an academy player is even making the bench, let alone getting on the pitch.  Even last season, with a smaller squad, we over-played older players to the point of exhaustion rather than give a few minutes to youth players.  We've taken a position where we had the perfect opportunity to introduce academy players to fill in the gaps in the squad, and done out level best to make sure it never happened.

[MackworthRamIsGod]

The next 5 games leading up to a tricky game against Wigan on Boxing Day are..

Bristol Rovers, Port Vale, Leyton Orient, Wycombe and Lincoln.  I think this is an ideal time for Warne to prove his worth and shut people like me up.

5 winnable games, 4 wins at an absolute minimum from those 5 and that would see us comfortable top 6 and sets us up nicely to throw it all away in Jan and Feb 😆

 

[duncanjwitham]

10 minutes ago, MackworthRamIsGod said:

The next 5 games leading up to a tricky game against Wigan on Boxing Day are..

Bristol Rovers, Port Vale, Leyton Orient, Wycombe and Lincoln.  I think this is an ideal time for Warne to prove his worth and shut people like me up.

5 winnable games, 4 wins at an absolute minimum from those 5 and that would see us comfortable top 6 and sets us up nicely to throw it all away in Jan and Feb 😆

 

The thing is, "winnable" seemingly has relatively little to do with how good the other team are, it's largely down to how they play against us.  Last season, Bristol Rovers were a very pretty, passing team under Barton and we did well against them (no idea if that's true now Barton has gone though).  Port Vale, Wycombe and Lincoln were much more aggressive against us, and we struggled (under Warne anyway).  Again, no idea if they are still setting up the same way this season though.

[YorkshireRam]

2 hours ago, duncanjwitham said:

Well, we currently have none of those things, so... 

We're not demanding the earth, we know where we've come from, and we're not expecting instant success.  What we want is a clear sign that we're actually working towards those things.  Right now, the messages coming from the club are the exact opposite of all of those.  You might disregard that Warne clip as a throwaway comment but it's *really* not, it ties up perfectly with everything he is actually doing on the pitch regarding academy players.  They are at best an after thought.  A bone to be tossed their way if there's nothing important on the line.  He hasn't integrated Brown at all, he's barely had a kick.  Thompson and Rooney were barely used last season, and only used this season after his carefully planned summer transfer spree turned into a complete disaster.  He hails Bird as our best player, then plays him a position where he barely touches the ball half the time.  Likewise, he hails Sibley as our best finisher then never brings him on when we need a goal.  Robinson is apparently so good that Villa and Southampton are looking at him, yet he's barely kicked a ball for us.  Weston scores on his debut, is then denied two obvious opportunities to take his chance and run with it.  The list goes on and on and on.

You can't just say that we're in too much of a mess to integrate academy players, in fact it's the perfect opportunity to do it.  Academy players don't just magically turn into first-team players overnight, they need to introduced slowly into the first team.  Right now, we've got a massively bloated first team squad - if everyone's fit we have 25 first team players (I'm including Thompson and Rooney, but not Robinson, Brown, Weston etc).  Even if you exclude the long-term injured, it's still a huge squad.  Barring an injury crisis, there's no way an academy player is even making the bench, let alone getting on the pitch.  Even last season, with a smaller squad, we over-played older players to the point of exhaustion rather than give a few minutes to youth players.  We've taken a position where we had the perfect opportunity to introduce academy players to fill in the gaps in the squad, and done out level best to make sure it never happened.

Lot to unpack here but the general gist is that we've created a harder pathway to the first team for academy players?

''Barring an injury crisis, there's no way an academy player is even making the bench''... Tony Weston was literally on the bench for our last league game after impressing on his debut in the cup. Is the implication he should have been playing every minute after scoring against an under 21s team? Collins scored 5 goals in a few days playing in his position, Weston hadn't earned the right to displace him. I mentioned above just shoving youngsters into games isn't automatically good for their development.

The academy has just had a hard reset. Part of what contributed to the recent turbulence was the need to promote all our best youth players to the first team, there's even an argument that we SHOULDN'T be promoting youth, simply to give the academy a chance to rebuild its success on the pitch.

''His carefully planned summer transfer spree''. Unless you have insider information the rest of us aren't privy to, why are you attributing the entirety of recruitment to Warne? I wasn't thrilled by our summer business either but we don't know anywhere near enough to say how much involvement in this Warne had, maybe he was let down by whoever was in charge of signing his choices up?

We're just outside the playoffs only on goals scored despite our terrible luck with injuries, so still in the promotion hunt. Without said injuries, we'd have 2 academy graduates in the first team that Warne himself promoted to regulars- plus Brown, Robinson, and Weston on the fringe, and at times we have played good football- so I actually disagree we ''have none of those things''. We're definitely not the finished product but given the radical change of style that I expected when Warne was appointed, I think there's green shoots, it just remains to be seen whether they'll blossom. 

[Wolfie20]

4 hours ago, nottingram said:

It depends whether there is truly the belief anything will be different in Feb. If you hold off and we’re still inconsistent it gives someone else barely any time to sort it out. It’s also another window where you might have backed the wrong horse, perhaps expensively given it’s January. I have not seen much evidence arising out of the summer window to leave me confident more transfer windows is what the manager needs. Maybe 3-4 hits out of 12? 

I don’t think people who run football clubs well are worried what fans of other clubs might think. And if I had to guess I doubt many fans of other clubs would look at Derby at the moment and think they were being managed well or making great use of the presumably very healthy resources they have at this level. 

What do you consider to be 'very healthy resources'?