Paul Warne appointed as Head Coach

[RodleyRam]

21 hours ago, Blondest Goat said:

And Rowettball isn't very often successful.  We were never going up that season.  The football was terrible to watch and noone seriously thought we would get promoted.  

It's fair enough to adopt that style when you are one of the minnows in the league with limited resources. We weren't in that position.  We had thrown money at it left right and centre.

This is the thing for me. A more agricultural style is understandable if resources can't get you talent and technical ability but it has limitations. With the talent at our disposal (and when Rowett was in charge) there is a 'better' way. Very few trophies have been won through percentage football. We don't need to play that way to be successful as we have talent and resources at this level that most clubs can only dream of. 

I'm hopeful that PW sees this as an opportunity to make the most of the talent at his disposal and play some exciting, attacking football that will send us up the league.

[brady1993]

8 minutes ago, Andicis said:

But going back to what you said in your first reply, you haven't watched Warne's sides in League One.

No and I'll hold my hands up to that. I'm talking about him from limited first hand knowledge, off hand accounts, what stats or scouting reports I can find and what Warne has personally said. 

1 hour ago, Andicis said:

Is it feasible, with League One standard players, to play possession football? I don't think so. They don't have enough quality on the ball.

Ehhh I disagree with this. I think there are enough examples to the contrary and I think the reason you don't see it as much culture of management in the lower leagues as it is about player quality.

1 hour ago, Andicis said:

Is it feasible, in a Championship side with a quarter of the budget of the top sides to set up to dominate? I don't think so.

It's possible. Not as easy as having a possession based side but its possible. But you generally need decent long term planning, excellent scouting or a strong academy. Obviously it would be tricky but again there are enough examples of teams coming out of league 1 and setting their stall out to get on the ball.

1 hour ago, Andicis said:

His management style reflects the position he was in. But he wasn't sitting back in League One and purely countering. His sides were very good and were often in control of games. 

This might be the case. It might not. I've just heard this argument so many times with so many different managers and it rarely holds up. It does ease my worries to hear he did actually set up to dominate the game in League 1. 

[Comrade 86]

6 hours ago, Andicis said:

Genuine question to people who are criticising Paul Warne for his style of play, how many of Rotherham's league one fixtures did you watch? And how many Championship ones not involving Derby? I feel like it's become a bit of an easy one to throw out there without justifying yourself why you don't like his style of football. 

With our actual eyes, you mean?

 

[S8TY]

This is a step up for Warne and his team and make no mistake DCFC is very different to Rovrum FC 

The expectations crowd infrastructure basically everything is different and Warne will know this and be excited by this as this is his oppurtunity and of course I hope he does well

as I’ve mentioned previously though he sets up Rovrum to nullify the opposition and not necessarily be the dominant side keeping the ball etc 

This will be different to what he’s used to …how he gets his team to play is very suitable for an underdog style team but here lies the big question can he change slightly when he sends out a team where we have predominantly better players than the opposition 

I’ve found in my own playing career that playing against better teams where you have to be solid and execute a game plan because you’re maybe on the backfoot is very different to dominating a game with more of the ball 

If Warne can change his mindset enough to want to dominate games rather than setting up purely for the opposition then I think he could be a success he set up his team last season to be very difficult to score against and that is always a good foundation in any game but we are very different and he will know that and will need to adapt to the fact we have better players and there lies the challenge for him 

Rowettball was slightly different but have to say was terrible to watch letting the opposition come onto us Mac had us playing some great stuff and to me that’s how I’d like us to play as we scored goals and went forward but still dictated games 

 Only  time will tell of course and I wish Warne and all of his team the best ….it’s never dull at Derby County ? 

[Bris Vegas]

3 hours ago, nottingram said:

Admittedly I have not made a habit of watching Rotherham games, and, in truth, don’t really mind what style of football we play as long as we have an identity that the whole club works towards, but do think that the more sophisticated your style, the more likely it is that it will translate positively the further up the leagues you go. Now how it translates isn’t so much of an issue at the moment but by giving Warne a 4 year contract you have to assume the hope is it will be something that was considered.

My concern is mostly that in their last two full ish (2019/20 season curtailed after 34 games) seasons at this level, Rotherham have averaged 0.775 goals from open play per game. Nothing wrong with that in and of itself but ideally you would not base a team around scoring from set pieces, in my opinion. Especially as I don’t see too many in our squad I would expect to be getting 5-6 goals in a season from them. We only have one serious CB who is 6ft plus so can we rely on them? I’m not so sure.

I hope I’m wrong, I am warming to Warne based on what I see and hear but I’m just not sure how well that translates.

In fairness that average beats our average of zero goals away from home.

Even at PP, we have scored two goals from corners (Barnsley and Posh) and a couple from outside the box (Hourihane). Those goals aren’t really tactical.

This season we have conceded more goals than we have scored in open play, and conceded more goals inside the box than we have scored too.

[Andicis]

1 hour ago, brady1993 said:

Ehhh I disagree with this. I think there are enough examples to the contrary and I think the reason you don't see it as much culture of management in the lower leagues as it is about player quality.

Do you have an example to hand of a League One side that played good possession football? I don't watch League One, but basically all the teams who were promoted seemed to be very direct and physical. Even at Championship level, it's rare to see great possession football. 

 

1 hour ago, brady1993 said:

t's possible. Not as easy as having a possession based side but its possible. But you generally need decent long term planning, excellent scouting or a strong academy. Obviously it would be tricky but again there are enough examples of teams coming out of league 1 and setting their stall out to get on the ball.

But most of those recently promoted sides that successfully acclimatised to the Championship like for example Sheff Utd, spent a bit of money after coming up. It's not just simply about being promoted, the ones that do well generally up the spending on quality players. Rotherham didn't really. They even lost players back to League One this year after promotion. 

 

1 hour ago, brady1993 said:

This might be the case. It might not. I've just heard this argument so many times with so many different managers and it rarely holds up. It does ease my worries to hear he did actually set up to dominate the game in League 1. 

For all either of us say, we won't know until he gets going. For me, I'm just not a huge fan of the style of play bashing, not really in your case, but in many that haven't even watched his sides. I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt. 

[nottingram]

4 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

In fairness that average beats our average of zero goals away from home.

Even at PP, we have scored two goals from corners (Barnsley and Posh) and a couple from outside the box (Hourihane). Those goals aren’t really tactical.

This season we have conceded more goals than we have scored in open play, and conceded more goals inside the box than we have scored too.

To be honest I think the zero goals away from home is a red herring because you could probably play those games 100 times over and we would not have 0 goals across them again but never mind. 

I don’t think it’s anything to shout about that those numbers are better than ours across this season as we have just replaced the (interim) manager responsible for it. We have so far averaged 0.667 from open play so you are looking at an average of 4-5 more open play goals across an entire season. I just hope that’s enough to not be called “boring”, or “lacking incision” or “football by numbers” or any number of phrases I’ve read to describe our start to the season. 

[Srg]

5 minutes ago, nottingram said:

To be honest I think the zero goals away from home is a red herring because you could probably play those games 100 times over and we would not have 0 goals across them again but never mind. 

I don’t think it’s anything to shout about that those numbers are better than ours across this season as we have just replaced the (interim) manager responsible for it. We have so far averaged 0.667 from open play so you are looking at an average of 4-5 more open play goals across an entire season. I just hope that’s enough to not be called “boring”, or “lacking incision” or “football by numbers” or any number of phrases I’ve read to describe our start to the season. 

Similarly, play those home games again playing like that and you lose more than one. 

[Ghost of Clough]

2 hours ago, Andicis said:

Do you have an example to hand of a League One side that played good possession football? I don't watch League One, but basically all the teams who were promoted seemed to be very direct and physical. Even at Championship level, it's rare to see great possession football. 

You think Derby are possession based? Well, Ipswich have an even greater share of possession yet top the table.

Last season, Sunderland were 4th highest, and MK Dons topped the list and finished only 1 poijt behind Rotherham with a smaller budget.

20/21 - 2 of the top 3 sides finished in the playoffs. 4th best (Peterborough) won automatic promotion.

19/20 - 3rd highest possession side won the league (Coventry), whilst top possession side (Oxford) finished 3rd and were cheated to promotion by Wycombe.

2 hours ago, Andicis said:

But most of those recently promoted sides that successfully acclimatised to the Championship like for example Sheff Utd, spent a bit of money after coming up. It's not just simply about being promoted, the ones that do well generally up the spending on quality players. Rotherham didn't really. They even lost players back to League One this year after promotion. 

In their 2 seasons in the Championship, they actually had a net transfer spend of £0. In the first season, their biggest fee was spent on Stearman.

[Jourdan]

Deleted

Edited September 24, 2022 by Jourdan

[Tyler Durden]

5 hours ago, RodleyRam said:

This is the thing for me. A more agricultural style is understandable if resources can't get you talent and technical ability but it has limitations. With the talent at our disposal (and when Rowett was in charge) there is a 'better' way. Very few trophies have been won through percentage football. We don't need to play that way to be successful as we have talent and resources at this level that most clubs can only dream of. 

I'm hopeful that PW sees this as an opportunity to make the most of the talent at his disposal and play some exciting, attacking football that will send us up the league.

Wimbledon in their heyday were a permanent fixture in the Premier League or whatever it was called then and won the FA Cup when it was a half decent trophy to win.

So you just can't exclude one style of football as being not fit for purpose.

Do you therefore think that the converse of percentage football which is what we seemed to have lapsed into was equally as effective by pratting around with the ball at the back ad infinitum?

[RodleyRam]

1 hour ago, Tyler Durden said:

Wimbledon in their heyday were a permanent fixture in the Premier League or whatever it was called then and won the FA Cup when it was a half decent trophy to win.

So you just can't exclude one style of football as being not fit for purpose.

Do you therefore think that the converse of percentage football which is what we seemed to have lapsed into was equally as effective by pratting around with the ball at the back ad infinitum?

If you read my post again I said 'very few trophies' and if you can raise me on your one example of Wimbledon then I'll stand down. The stats are stacked way in favour of teams who would be considered as playing a more 'attractive' possession based style.

And it's what I would prefer to watch, ideally winning to boot. I would honestly rather we tried to play football than constantly box-kick for touch and try to drive over a line-out.

For what it's worth I think our style under LR was mostly fine. LR stated on a few occasions that having possession wasn't all about the attacking benefits, which makes sense to me too. The results (away in particular) were not reflective of our performances and I think we are 3-6 points off what we deserved and think this would have balanced out as a solid play off place over the course of the season.

It is what it is and I hope PW seizes the opportunity because he has some excellent players on the books and it'd be a shame to waste their abilities.

[S8TY]

2 hours ago, RodleyRam said:

If you read my post again I said 'very few trophies' and if you can raise me on your one example of Wimbledon then I'll stand down. The stats are stacked way in favour of teams who would be considered as playing a more 'attractive' possession based style.

And it's what I would prefer to watch, ideally winning to boot. I would honestly rather we tried to play football than constantly box-kick for touch and try to drive over a line-out.

For what it's worth I think our style under LR was mostly fine. LR stated on a few occasions that having possession wasn't all about the attacking benefits, which makes sense to me too. The results (away in particular) were not reflective of our performances and I think we are 3-6 points off what we deserved and think this would have balanced out as a solid play off place over the course of the season.

It is what it is and I hope PW seizes the opportunity because he has some excellent players on the books and it'd be a shame to waste their abilities.

Great post ?????? Spot on 

[Tyler Durden]

6 hours ago, RodleyRam said:

If you read my post again I said 'very few trophies' and if you can raise me on your one example of Wimbledon then I'll stand down. The stats are stacked way in favour of teams who would be considered as playing a more 'attractive' possession based style.

And it's what I would prefer to watch, ideally winning to boot. I would honestly rather we tried to play football than constantly box-kick for touch and try to drive over a line-out.

For what it's worth I think our style under LR was mostly fine. LR stated on a few occasions that having possession wasn't all about the attacking benefits, which makes sense to me too. The results (away in particular) were not reflective of our performances and I think we are 3-6 points off what we deserved and think this would have balanced out as a solid play off place over the course of the season.

It is what it is and I hope PW seizes the opportunity because he has some excellent players on the books and it'd be a shame to waste their abilities.

Possession for possession sake, never understood the benefits of that especially if you're inviting pressure on yourself by making a series of risky passes. It's not like we've self imploded from doing this self inflicted pointless tactic.

If we were pulling the opposition out of shape then I could understand it's benefits but invariably it was just keeping possession for no end reward.

Whenever someone says we were x points off where we should be I always then take their post with a large dose of salt, there's no alternative league for where a team should be unfortunately, neither can anyone genuinely predict the future - Rosenoir has been removed so no one can now say his tactic would have balanced out over the season as it's just pure speculation now, impossible of being proved. 

[Tyler Durden]

11 hours ago, nottingram said:

To be honest I think the zero goals away from home is a red herring because you could probably play those games 100 times over and we would not have 0 goals across them again but never mind. 

I don’t think it’s anything to shout about that those numbers are better than ours across this season as we have just replaced the (interim) manager responsible for it. We have so far averaged 0.667 from open play so you are looking at an average of 4-5 more open play goals across an entire season. I just hope that’s enough to not be called “boring”, or “lacking incision” or “football by numbers” or any number of phrases I’ve read to describe our start to the season. 

You can't say that as no one knows.

What is acceptable to quote as a fact is the number of games away from home when we didn't score.

Everything else is just pure speculation and conjecture. 

[BramcoteRam84]

1 hour ago, Tyler Durden said:

You can't say that as no one knows.

What is acceptable to quote as a fact is the number of games away from home when we didn't score.

Everything else is just pure speculation and conjecture. 

But on the balance of probabilities @nottingram is correct, the clear chances in the away games so far, if that level continued we’d score and probably several. just like last season you could play those games again and we wouldn’t score because we were creating absolutely nothing away from home. 

[Tyler Durden]

41 minutes ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

But on the balance of probabilities @nottingram is correct, the clear chances in the away games so far, if that level continued we’d score and probably several. just like last season you could play those games again and we wouldn’t score because we were creating absolutely nothing away from home. 

None of us know that so my original point still remains. 

The only fact is the number of away goals we did score.

You can back and forth this but everything else is just opinion and pure speculation. 

How can someone be correct on the balance of probabilities ? someone will be correct on an outcome that they can't now realise so again comes down to pure speculation and opinion and always will.

Facts are the number of goals we did score in away games under Rosenoir. Everything else is just chat. 

[kevinhectoring]

8 hours ago, RodleyRam said:

The stats are stacked way in favour of teams who would be considered as playing a more 'attractive' possession based style.

In the top two divisions this is an obviously true statement, at least since refs began to protect players from thuggery.  But is it a correct statement for the third tier ? Where too many players don’t have the quality for it to work? 
 

on this topic, DC is of course wanting to see us promoted. (I think his ideal will be to sell the club when we go up, not least because he’s conscious of the risk involved in club ownership.) When he interviewed Paul W for the job, his first question might have been : “can you get this group of players promoted ?”    Not sure the question  : “can you promise me and my fellow fans attractive free flowing football ?” would even be on the agenda 

[kevinhectoring]

2 hours ago, Tyler Durden said:

Possession for possession sake, never understood the benefits of that

Ok it doesn’t always work. But : it’s tiring running after the ball, you can’t score if you’ve not got it, if you’ve not got it for long periods you sometimes forget what to do with it, and a team constantly on the back foot will eventually have a lapse of defensive concentration    

[Tyler Durden]

2 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

Ok it doesn’t always work. But : it’s tiring running after the ball, you can’t score if you’ve not got it, if you’ve not got it for long periods you sometimes forget what to do with it, and a team constantly on the back foot will eventually have a lapse of defensive concentration    

You don't have to run after the ball if the possession is all on the opposition penalty area. You just sit and maintain your shape.