James Collins

[Loughborough Ram]

4 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

From the FA rules:

You stated "reckless" which is only a yellow.

I stated agressive and reckless actually. Neither of these were official descriptions just my interpretation of his actions. 

Now that you have clarified the law I would also add excessive force to my description if that helps.

[Tamworthram]

1 hour ago, Ramarena said:

I’ve seen Port Vale fans sharing a picture of the defender Collins “hit” with a black eye. It could be the angle but it looks like a dodgy photoshop.

Not sure if he made contact or not, or if there was any intention.

Sadly it was a daft thing to do whilst he was on top of their player, he gave a dodgy ref a very easy choice, which was helped by the Vale players theatrics!

From the Twitter clip earlier on this thread it looks to me like he did make contact but with the inside of his arm and certainly not his fist. Therefore I reckon it must have been photoshopped. 
 

I doubt he intended to make contact with the player but in real time, and from where the officials would have been positioned, I can see how it would have looked like violent conduct.
 

I agree about the dodgy referee and theatrics from the PV player but reckon the ref got this one right. I think he would have been sent off even if the PV player had just lay there rubbing his head so I don’t think we can blame anyone other than Collins. It was a stupid thing to do and very likely cost us at least a point but he isn’t the first, and won’t be the last, senior player to do something foolish that cost us not only in the game but also for the next three.

[roboto]

At the time, when you don't have the benefit of being able to watch frame by frame replays of the incident, it did look like a red to me. Since going back over the clips of the incident, it looks more like he was hitting the ground in frustration, but perhaps with the knowledge that he might catch a bit of the PV player in doing so.

The reaction of the PV players got him sent off as I don't think the ref really saw much of the incident. However, I don't understand how a player can't be cautioned for a two handed push on another player. That is an act of aggression that could further escalate a situation and the referee took no action.

[Ghost of Clough]

59 minutes ago, roboto said:

At the time, when you don't have the benefit of being able to watch frame by frame replays of the incident, it did look like a red to me. Since going back over the clips of the incident, it looks more like he was hitting the ground in frustration, but perhaps with the knowledge that he might catch a bit of the PV player in doing so.

The reaction of the PV players got him sent off as I don't think the ref really saw much of the incident. However, I don't understand how a player can't be cautioned for a two handed push on another player. That is an act of aggression that could further escalate a situation and the referee took no action.

He was playing on the edge and had a moment of frustration with no awareness of what was going on around (or under) him. You can see his reaction in the split second after he did it before being shoved how he didn't intend to cause harm. Reckless and cautionable offence.

Everyone in the ground was surprised how the PV man didn't get a yellow for the shove. It was more clear cut than deciding red/yellow for Collins.

[TuffLuff]

19 minutes ago, roboto said:

At the time, when you don't have the benefit of being able to watch frame by frame replays of the incident, it did look like a red to me. Since going back over the clips of the incident, it looks more like he was hitting the ground in frustration, but perhaps with the knowledge that he might catch a bit of the PV player in doing so.

The reaction of the PV players got him sent off as I don't think the ref really saw much of the incident. However, I don't understand how a player can't be cautioned for a two handed push on another player. That is an act of aggression that could further escalate a situation and the referee took no action.

To be honest I dont really buy this (although do agree with your overall evaluation). If, in the split second you have to think, you go ‘I’m gonna leave a bit on his face’ then your arm would be in an unnatural position as your intent would be to get something on him. Which is what the ref should have been looking for as well to consider it a straight red, unfortunately he went on players reaction like he did with everything else for Port Vale (they probably knew this after previous experiences with the ref, hence their over reactions/dive for the penalty). 

Whether he’s caught him accidentally is another matter, again their player reaction suggests not because he’s rolling around making the most of it to be seen the ref.

Thats two things the ref needed to put into making that decision which he completely failed to do.

[TuffLuff]

14 hours ago, Ramarena said:

I’ve seen Port Vale fans sharing a picture of the defender Collins “hit” with a black eye. It could be the angle but it looks like a dodgy photoshop.

Not sure if he made contact or not, or if there was any intention.

Sadly it was a daft thing to do whilst he was on top of their player, he gave a dodgy ref a very easy choice, which was helped by the Vale players theatrics!

https://www.port-vale.co.uk/news/2022/october/nathan-smith--it-just-gives-a-lot-of-confidence-to-the-lads-that-we-are-not-out-of-place-here-in-this-league/
 

Looking at this i wouldn’t particularly say there’s anything obvious, also considering it’d be near on impossible for Collins arm movement to make contact with that eye then I’d say it’s a load of rubbish

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

He was playing on the edge and had a moment of frustration with no awareness of what was going on around (or under) him. You can see his reaction in the split second after he did it before being shoved how he didn't intend to cause harm. Reckless and cautionable offence.

Everyone in the ground was surprised how the PV man didn't get a yellow for the shove. It was more clear cut than deciding red/yellow for Collins.

I can't help thinking there'd be very few of us capable of seeing it this way if it were the other way round.

Collins makes a big, sharp, powerful swing at something, with his arm/elbow. Given that he's just hit the deck (in the traditional sense, I mean) after grappling with the PV defender, it seems unlikely that he didn't know the opponent was still there. 
Reckless, definitely. Cautionable, I don't think so, and I'm sure I wouldn't think so if that had been Harrison on Cashin (for example). He may only have been livid for a split-second, but in that moment, what he did was asking for a red, and he only avoids it if three things all happen: the officials don't see him, and he doesn't connect, and the Vale player doesn't milk it. For me the ref shows him red or does nothing. I can't see how he ever gives a yellow for that.

Relative to what Collins did, the other Vale defender's push is powder-puff. Yes, he's not allowed to do it, and technically it's a red. Certainly worth a yellow at the very least, as you say.

[Ghost of Clough]

7 minutes ago, jameso said:

I can't help thinking there'd be very few of us capable of seeing it this way if it were the other way round.

Collins makes a big, sharp, powerful swing at something, with his arm/elbow. Given that he's just hit the deck (in the traditional sense, I mean) after grappling with the PV defender, it seems unlikely that he didn't know the opponent was still there. 
Reckless, definitely. Cautionable, I don't think so, and I'm sure I wouldn't think so if that had been Harrison on Cashin (for example). He may only have been livid for a split-second, but in that moment, what he did was asking for a red, and he only avoids it if three things all happen: the officials don't see him, and he doesn't connect, and the Vale player doesn't milk it. For me the ref shows him red or does nothing. I can't see how he ever gives a yellow for that.

Relative to what Collins did, the other Vale defender's push is powder-puff. Yes, he's not allowed to do it, and technically it's a red. Certainly worth a yellow at the very least, as you say.

You've just said it was reckless. The FA's rules state a reckless challenge is only a yellow.

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

You've just said it was reckless. The FA's rules state a reckless challenge is only a yellow.

I've tried to do my homework before replying - are you referring to Law 12? Isn't it only about challenges?

Collins' action isn't a challenge, surely?

[B4ev6is]

It clearly show vale pulled james collions on top of him and never touched him so for me no red card if anything vale player should have gotten a red first.

[darren22]

Worst referee ever! Derby County vs Port Vale matchday vlog!! - YouTube

Not condoning Collins red, But if you watch this youtube blog from around 9 mins 30, you see the red card from a different angle & clearly see the Port vale defender put his arms around Collins & they both fall to the ground, you can also see the "Ref" give a free kick to Port vale when it should have been a penalty, The "Ref" could clearly see what was going on but for whatever reason decided it  had to be a foul to Port vale ?

[darren22]

Just now, darren22 said:

Worst referee ever! Derby County vs Port Vale matchday vlog!! - YouTube

Not condoning Collins red, But if you watch this youtube blog from around 9 mins 30, you see the red card from a different angle & clearly see the Port vale defender put his arms around Collins & they both fall to the ground, you can also see the "Ref" give a free kick to Port vale when it should have been a penalty, The "Ref" could clearly see what was going on but for whatever reason decided it  had to be a foul to Port vale ?

Not sure how to post the link ? 

[Mucker1884]

15 minutes ago, darren22 said:

Worst referee ever! Derby County vs Port Vale matchday vlog!! - YouTube

Not condoning Collins red, But if you watch this youtube blog from around 9 mins 30, you see the red card from a different angle & clearly see the Port vale defender put his arms around Collins & they both fall to the ground, you can also see the "Ref" give a free kick to Port vale when it should have been a penalty, The "Ref" could clearly see what was going on but for whatever reason decided it  had to be a foul to Port vale ?

 

14 minutes ago, darren22 said:

Not sure how to post the link ? 

 

 

[darren22]

1 minute ago, Mucker1884 said:

 

 

 

Thanks ?

[europia]

11 hours ago, roboto said:

At the time, when you don't have the benefit of being able to watch frame by frame replays of the incident, it did look like a red to me. Since going back over the clips of the incident, it looks more like he was hitting the ground in frustration, but perhaps with the knowledge that he might catch a bit of the PV player in doing so.

The reaction of the PV players got him sent off as I don't think the ref really saw much of the incident. However, I don't understand how a player can't be cautioned for a two handed push on another player. That is an act of aggression that could further escalate a situation and the referee took no action.

Forcefully hitting the ground in frustration while sat on the ground with no one around you is one thing. Doing it while entwined with the opposition defender not so clever. Collins gave the ref a decision to make and that decision was a red card. Regretfully it could cost us more points, since we don't have like for like back up for Collins, who was starting to come good. 

[kevinhectoring]

On 09/10/2022 at 22:24, Ghost of Clough said:

From the FA rules:

You stated "reckless" which is only a yellow.

whether or not he meant to hit him, whether or not he did hit him, the fact is JC did something that would lead to a sending off by many of the best refs in the land. (Guy next to me was looking straight at him and the moment it happened said ‘red’.) Such a shame, works really hard, scores a goal Haarland would be proud of ... then that

As for Hourihane’s hand ball, by the time they’re his age most footballers have learned not to do anything that idiotic 

On the other ‘big decision’, the first penalty, what the ref did was pretty textbook: think, speak to the lino, who was close and had a clear view, then follow his advice. Not sure whether it was a pen and in retrospect the lino may not have had the best angle. But no one should be surprised by the ref’s thought process or the lino’s view

(yes apart from those there was a bunch of bad decisions)

the only thing the club should appeal is Stearman’s yellow (if that’s possible)

[Sparkle]

I can’t stand all the grappling at set pieces - we do it a bit but the opposition do it massively especially this season - I blame the referees because they allow it to happen and then blow for a simulated foul when a feather goes near a player.

while I am at it we get very little ball in play time in this league - it’s supposed to be entertainment - add 15 minutes in each half and give us what we pay for.

[i-Ram]

No appeal from the Club I take it to this sending off. Not surprised. Collins should know better.

[Ghost of Clough]

5 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

No appeal from the Club I take it to this sending off. Not surprised. Collins should know better.

That'll be because it wasn't an obvious mistake. If was based on the balance of probabilities, I'm sure we would have.

[Ghost of Clough]

1 hour ago, Sparkle said:

I can’t stand all the grappling at set pieces - we do it a bit but the opposition do it massively especially this season - I blame the referees because they allow it to happen and then blow for a simulated foul when a feather goes near a player.

while I am at it we get very little ball in play time in this league - it’s supposed to be entertainment - add 15 minutes in each half and give us what we pay for.

I'll have you know, the ref on Saturday awarded a freekick for grappling from a corner. However, it was mutual grappling and Port Vale were awarded a freekick. Defenders always seem to get away with it, whereas attackers are punished. That is unless you're a big strong defender like Davies, and then you shouldn't get thrown to the floor by someone as small and weak as Ikpeazu.