New signings, who will be first...and next?

[Oldben]

33 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

@Oldben you keep driving this agenda against this suthis's recruitment. There are three main factors to consider.

1. We had 3 and a bit weeks to get players signed up

2. We can't pay any fees

3. We can only offer 2 year deals at most.

These factors meant we were limited to free agents, who are typically over 30, injury prone, or very young and judged to not be good enough by their former club. Players younger than 30 are going to be looking for more than just 2 years, so cuts the options down further.

We still have 8 players aged 21 or below in our squad, amd likely to add a couple more in that age band before the window closes. We've signed experienced players for those 8 to learn off. We haven't had many 'streetwise' players in recent seasons, but now we have a lot - this cannot be understated in both developing our younger players and performances on the pitch.

While there might be some merit to your words, unfortunately your not a scout or a professional football manager of some merit.

The articles ive read about making a success in league one when it comes to recruitment, are not based on the idle rambles of a fan.

They are based on clubs who have been successful at this level and people who know what they are talking about.

I can agree with some of your justifications here, for example timeline and being blocked by the efl from spending money on players.

However, that doesnt negate from the fact that many of the players we have signed recently, if the club doesnt succeed in promotion this season, will simply be even older the following season.

Nothing I have read indicates that older players are the way forward for success at this level.

Articles from Brentford, Sheffield United, Leeds, Sunderlands, Wigan, portsmouth indicate other wise.

I do accept however, that we are where we are.

The predicted winners of the league are sheffield wednesday and Ipswich.

I am confident that it will be an interesting season for our club.

[Gerry Daly]

We can’t expect to jump, in a matter of a fortnight, from where we were which was the brink of oblivion to certs for promotion. You need to rein your silly critique in old Ben. Also you don’t fool anyone with your pseudo educated English such a ‘however that doesn’t negate from the fact’ 

[Srg]

13 minutes ago, Oldben said:

While there might be some merit to your words, unfortunately your not a scout or a professional football manager of some merit.

The articles ive read about making a success in league one when it comes to recruitment, are not based on the idle rambles of a fan.

They are based on clubs who have been successful at this level and people who know what they are talking about.

I can agree with some of your justifications here, for example timeline and being blocked by the efl from spending money on players.

However, that doesnt negate from the fact that many of the players we have signed recently, if the club doesnt succeed in promotion this season, will simply be even older the following season.

Nothing I have read indicates that older players are the way forward for success at this level.

Articles from Brentford, Sheffield United, Leeds, Sunderlands, Wigan, portsmouth indicate other wise.

I do accept however, that we are where we are.

The predicted winners of the league are sheffield wednesday and Ipswich.

I am confident that it will be an interesting season for our club.

I too prefer signing younger players, but take a look at the average squad age of the top 6 of league one last season compared to the relegated teams then come back to us. 

[ram59]

Unfortunately, it appears that we are not in a position to acquire the ideal players, which are young talented players with potential in the lower leagues. These players will command a fee, even those at non League clubs will cost something.

Our signings can only fall into 3 categories, experienced free agents towards the end of their careers, younger players who have been deemed to be failures and up and coming young loanees from premier/championship clubs.

[SamUltraRam]

This is a reset & in the circumstances I'm very happy with the recruitment.

It's for David Clowes to formulate a plan for future times, which is what he said he would do.

Whilst not perfect, the playing squad is in a much more competitive position than I would have expected it to be

We have to live with the short term consequences of administration, it's just how it is & settle in for the ride.

Our next signings may not be playing staff, remember we lost coaches and analysts last year so they might be a priority. The modern way is to have people to study how the opponents set up etc & that team shouldn't be overlooked otherwise LR will be doing that as well as coaching & managing

Edited July 26, 2022 by SamUltraRam

[LeedsCityRam]

39 minutes ago, Oldben said:

While there might be some merit to your words, unfortunately your not a scout or a professional football manager of some merit.

The articles ive read about making a success in league one when it comes to recruitment, are not based on the idle rambles of a fan.

They are based on clubs who have been successful at this level and people who know what they are talking about.

I can agree with some of your justifications here, for example timeline and being blocked by the efl from spending money on players.

However, that doesnt negate from the fact that many of the players we have signed recently, if the club doesnt succeed in promotion this season, will simply be even older the following season.

Nothing I have read indicates that older players are the way forward for success at this level.

Articles from Brentford, Sheffield United, Leeds, Sunderlands, Wigan, portsmouth indicate other wise.

I do accept however, that we are where we are.

The predicted winners of the league are sheffield wednesday and Ipswich.

I am confident that it will be an interesting season for our club.

I wouldn't disagree with the point you make about the ideal squad mix but don't think you're appreciating the difference between a long term plan & short term necessities.

Long term, yes I agree we do need to look at getting in players on the up & for whom we can increase their value by developing them with a view to ultimately selling them, reinvesting the proceeds to improve the overall squad quality & then start the cycle again. Identifying those players takes time though, improving them takes time & we are limited by not being able to pay fees.

In the short term, we needed urgent recruitment from 1st July just to field a competitive team. Don't forget we only had 7 players contracted, 2 of whom weaseled their way out. The other issue was that so many of our players are very young so like last season, we needed experienced heads & proven performers to guide them. Throwing together a new, young squad & expecting them do well in League One simply isn't realistic.

Btw Derby do have an analyst & a scouting network. Imagine they are working very hard to identify potential quality, the trilaists we've had in & the Onoruh signing surely proves there is work going on to identify fresh young talent to bring to the club. These players & further acquisitions made throughout the season (those without a contract i.e. like Plange/Ebiowei last yr) will ultimately replace the older signings we have made this summer.

[Oldben]

38 minutes ago, Srg said:

I too prefer signing younger players, but take a look at the average squad age of the top 6 of league one last season compared to the relegated teams then come back to us. 

Average age league one teams 2021/2022 ...

Wigan fc - 27.3 years

Rotherham United fc - 25.5 years

MK Dons - 23.6 years

Sheffield wednesday - 27.4 years

Sunderland fc - 24.1 years

Wycombe wanders fc - 25.6 years

Plymouth Argyle - 24.2 years

Oxford United - 26.8 years

Bolton - 25.5 years

Portsmouth - 24.7 years

Ipswich - 25.7 years

Derby - 27 years

Based on the average ages here I see you have a point.

Though we are lacking fire power.

We carrying some players with bad injury records.

We are carrying some players, where their lack of speed is an issue.

If we were allowed a transfer budget how many of our recent signings would have been first choice picks.

 

 

 

 

[Oldben]

2 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

I wouldn't disagree with the point you make about the ideal squad mix but don't think you're appreciating the difference between a long term plan & short term necessities.

Long term, yes I agree we do need to look at getting in players on the up & for whom we can increase their value by developing them with a view to ultimately selling them, reinvesting the proceeds to improve the overall squad quality & then start the cycle again. Identifying those players takes time though, improving them takes time & we are limited by not being able to pay fees.

In the short term, we needed urgent recruitment from 1st July just to field a competitive team. Don't forget we only had 7 players contracted, 2 of whom weaseled their way out. The other issue was that so many of our players are very young so like last season, we needed experienced heads & proven performers to guide them. Throwing together a new, young squad & expecting them do well in League One simply isn't realistic.

Btw Derby do have an analyst & a scouting network. Imagine they are working very hard to identify potential quality, the trilaists we've had in & the Onoruh signing surely proves there is work going on to identify fresh young talent to bring to the club. These players & further acquisitions made throughout the season (those without a contract i.e. like Plange/Ebiowei last yr) will ultimately replace the older signings we have made this summer.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/derby-county-wayne-rooney-shuttleworth-7323733.amp

[Srg]

1 minute ago, Oldben said:

Average age league one teams 2021/2022 ...

Wigan fc - 27.3 years

Rotherham United fc - 25.5 years

MK Dons - 23.6 years

Sheffield wednesday - 27.4 years

Sunderland fc - 24.1 years

Wycombe wanders fc - 25.6 years

Plymouth Argyle - 24.2 years

Oxford United - 26.8 years

Bolton - 25.5 years

Portsmouth - 24.7 years

Ipswich - 25.7 years

Derby - 27 years

Based on the average ages here I see you have a point.

Though we are lacking fire power.

We carrying some players with bad injury records.

We are carrying some players, where their lack of speed is an issue.

If we were allowed a transfer budget how many of our recent signings would have been first choice picks.

 

 

 

 

I’m with you on lack of speed and firepower but feel that maybe the incoming loans. 

[Chester40]

1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

@Oldben you keep driving this agenda against this suthis's recruitment. There are three main factors to consider.

1. We had 3 and a bit weeks to get players signed up

2. We can't pay any fees

3. We can only offer 2 year deals at most.

These factors meant we were limited to free agents, who are typically over 30, injury prone, or very young and judged to not be good enough by their former club. Players younger than 30 are going to be looking for more than just 2 years, so cuts the options down further.

We still have 8 players aged 21 or below in our squad, amd likely to add a couple more in that age band before the window closes. We've signed experienced players for those 8 to learn off. We haven't had many 'streetwise' players in recent seasons, but now we have a lot - this cannot be understated in both developing our younger players and performances on the pitch.

'Enjoyed' all your posting about the financial stuff for the last 18months..and previously your academy insights. Its  really good to see your other posting is every bit as informed. Best poster on here, talk lots of (non knee-jerk) sense.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Chester40

[Crewton]

2 minutes ago, Oldben said:

If we were allowed a transfer budget how many of our recent signings would have been first choice picks.

You might as well ask "if we hadn't been rescued from liquidation only 3 weeks ago, what would our team look like?" because it would be equally pointless. 

To have the squad we have at this point in time is nigh on miraculous. 

[Sparkle]

The next major thing will be seeing what players we have when the transfer window shuts which I think is the end of August?

[Ghost of Clough]

1 hour ago, Oldben said:

While there might be some merit to your words, unfortunately your not a scout or a professional football manager of some merit.

The articles ive read about making a success in league one when it comes to recruitment, are not based on the idle rambles of a fan.

They are based on clubs who have been successful at this level and people who know what they are talking about.

I can agree with some of your justifications here, for example timeline and being blocked by the efl from spending money on players.

However, that doesnt negate from the fact that many of the players we have signed recently, if the club doesnt succeed in promotion this season, will simply be even older the following season.

Nothing I have read indicates that older players are the way forward for success at this level.

Articles from Brentford, Sheffield United, Leeds, Sunderlands, Wigan, portsmouth indicate other wise.

I do accept however, that we are where we are.

The predicted winners of the league are sheffield wednesday and Ipswich.

I am confident that it will be an interesting season for our club.

The same Sheffield Wednesday who have an older squad than us? 

Of course, this very crude average doesn't account for players who will actually play. For example, game time for the likes of Stearman and Loach will be minimal.
Wycombe, Sheffield Wednesday and Wigan (despite you claiming they had a young squad) regularly fielded the oldest starting 11s in the league last season. Wycombe actually fielded 46 of the top 60 oldest 11s last season. Those three clubs finished 1st, 4th and 6th, so there is some merit to having a lot of experience in L1.

 

You're making your judgement entirely on what you've read online, which has no regard to our situation and the players we're capable of recruiting whilst under a business plan (no transfer fees). It also takes a selective approach, looking at only young squads, rather than the other end of the scale. Wigan have consistently had one of the oldest squads during their time in L1, whilst Rotherham are always at the top end of the age table too.

[i-Ram]

45 minutes ago, Chester40 said:

'Enjoyed' all your posting about the financial stuff for the last 18months..and previously your academy insights. Its  really good to see your other posting is every bit as informed. Best poster on here, talk lots of (non knee-jerk) sense.

Get a room.

[Ghost of Clough]

47 minutes ago, Oldben said:

Based on the average ages here I see you have a point.

Though we are lacking fire power.

We carrying some players with bad injury records.

We are carrying some players, where their lack of speed is an issue.

I haven't exactly followed the careers of our new signings, so can't tell if Transfermarkt has accurately recorded their injuries or not, but here's a list of the total number of games our new signings have missed due to injury... in their career...

Chester - 58
McGoldrick - 21
Mendez-Laing - 12
Smith - 9
Barkhuizen - 0
Collins - 0
Hourihane - 2
Loach - 0
Oduroh - 0
Roberts - 0
Wildsmith - 0

The two at the top of that list have played over 800 club games between them. For them to have only missed 10% of game due to injury isn't what I would call having "bad injury records". Even then, we have players in the squad who can fill in, never mind who the 4 players coming will play.
McGoldrick (CF) - Collins has a remarkable record on the injury front and can be relied upon to be available all season as CF. We also have Stretton and Barkuizen who could cover.
McGoldrick (AM/SS) - Sibley, Knight, Hourihane
Chester (CB) - Between Davies, Stearman, Cashin, Roberts, Forsyth and Bielik, we'll have enough cover at CB even if we have an injury crisis of monumental proportions.

[Chester40]

16 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

Get a room.

I'd trust him to get the most tasteful yet not over priced room too.

[Donnyram]

27 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Collins has a remarkable record on the injury front and can be relied upon to be available all season

ACL pending Saturday then ?

[Tyler Durden]

5 hours ago, Oldben said:

https://playerscout.co.uk/football-league-scouting/

The key is being able to identify undervalued talent in the market, develop them, and then sell them on for profit, gradually building more value into the squad and gradually increasing the level of the squad.

Older players don't sell for a profit, and are less useful the following season if already 32. Older players are more injury prone, and if you look at the injury records of a number of the recent signings of this age group you and the fact that at this age players pick up more injuries.

It's possible to say that Derby needed to sign new players quickly due to the transfer window left available once the new ownership went through and have therefore recruited players who once upon a time, were successful at league one level.

The problem is that such players were younger then and more able to play the physical/fast game that happens in league one. 

Take collins he scored a lot of goals for luton in league one 3 years ago, now hes older and scored 3 goals in 23 games last season.

mcgoldrick still has a great football mind, but at 34 hes unlikely in my opinion, to score 10 goals in the coming season. 

Youth loan players, are not as committed to playing for the club as those under contract to the club. Youth players take time to gel at the club, and are not the finished article. That means they are less likely to score a lot of goals if they are strikers for example.

The development of a strategic plan at Derby will provide clarity and outline the conditions for success, defining the type of recruitment Derby want going forward. Derby need to create value in the squad to become more sustainable.

Derby should aim to switch the recruitment bias in favour of players on the rise, who come to Derby and have the opportunity to further their own careers. Derby may not keep them, they may go on to play in the Premier League, but Derby get to enjoy the benefits of that.

Derby will need a football analyst plus a scouting network.

 

If it's that patently obvious why haven't we done all of the above then 

[Leeds Ram]

46 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

I haven't exactly followed the careers of our new signings, so can't tell if Transfermarkt has accurately recorded their injuries or not, but here's a list of the total number of games our new signings have missed due to injury... in their career...

Chester - 58
McGoldrick - 21
Mendez-Laing - 12
Smith - 9
Barkhuizen - 0
Collins - 0
Hourihane - 2
Loach - 0
Oduroh - 0
Roberts - 0
Wildsmith - 0

The two at the top of that list have played over 800 club games between them. For them to have only missed 10% of game due to injury isn't what I would call having "bad injury records". Even then, we have players in the squad who can fill in, never mind who the 4 players coming will play.
McGoldrick (CF) - Collins has a remarkable record on the injury front and can be relied upon to be available all season as CF. We also have Stretton and Barkuizen who could cover.
McGoldrick (AM/SS) - Sibley, Knight, Hourihane
Chester (CB) - Between Davies, Stearman, Cashin, Roberts, Forsyth and Bielik, we'll have enough cover at CB even if we have an injury crisis of monumental proportions.

Pretty sure Barkhuizen has been plagued with injuries during his time with Preston so I'm not sure how he's missed 0 games. I think the issue with the squad currently is simply the depth up front and on the wings for me. We've got strength in the middle both in defence and midfield but arguably weaker on the wings and up front. Personally, i think if we get a few injuries we could be struggling to have the season we'd like to have but it is what it is, to get a team together at this point is really good so I'm just excited to see how it goes. 

[ben_dcfc]

41 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

I haven't exactly followed the careers of our new signings, so can't tell if Transfermarkt has accurately recorded their injuries or not, but here's a list of the total number of games our new signings have missed due to injury... in their career...

Chester - 58
McGoldrick - 21
Mendez-Laing - 12
Smith - 9
Barkhuizen - 0
Collins - 0
Hourihane - 2
Loach - 0
Oduroh - 0
Roberts - 0
Wildsmith - 0

The two at the top of that list have played over 800 club games between them. For them to have only missed 10% of game due to injury isn't what I would call having "bad injury records". Even then, we have players in the squad who can fill in, never mind who the 4 players coming will play.
McGoldrick (CF) - Collins has a remarkable record on the injury front and can be relied upon to be available all season as CF. We also have Stretton and Barkuizen who could cover.
McGoldrick (AM/SS) - Sibley, Knight, Hourihane
Chester (CB) - Between Davies, Stearman, Cashin, Roberts, Forsyth and Bielik, we'll have enough cover at CB even if we have an injury crisis of monumental proportions.

That list is a load of rubbish. Barkhuizen missed a lot of last season through injury for one. Looking at the website for McGoldrick, it only includes his injuries at Sheff Utd. Just a quick look at his career on wiki, you can see that he has had multiple injuries at other clubs. It claims Mendez-Laing has only had 1 injury in his career, but a quick search shows that is clearly false. I'm not saying that these players have bad injury records but if that list was true, they'd be some of the most fortunate players of all time in terms of injuries.