The Administration Thread

[Bob The Badger]

This makes me want to canonize Rooney.

But he'd have to be dead for that happen and he has to lead us out of this mess and into the Premier League first.

Thanks to @angieram for posting this in the other thread.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b94deebc-7ad5-11ec-9998-b2483743c25e?shareToken=67dbf7f4530033813339162cd2845a6e

[Keepyuppy]

1 hour ago, PistoldPete said:

I skim through my work whilst busy checking on the Rams news. 
Even so I am thoroughly confused by the MSD situation. Don't Derby have a loan from MSD of £20m. SO how is an offer of £28 million going to lead us out of insolvency? Other debts about £40m. Some of them genuine football debts. So don't all creditors get less than 25%? Can't imagine HMRC being happy with that.    

That loan owed to MSD is MM’s loan personally, as he owns Pride Park and not part of the sale of the club. 

[Sparkle]

1 hour ago, PistoldPete said:

I skim through my work whilst busy checking on the Rams news. 
Even so I am thoroughly confused by the MSD situation. Don't Derby have a loan from MSD of £20m. SO how is an offer of £28 million going to lead us out of insolvency? Other debts about £40m. Some of them genuine football debts. So don't all creditors get less than 25%? Can't imagine HMRC being happy with that.    

I can only assume the prospective buyer know what they are offering and how much and how it will work for me I am only concerned with survival and not paying the parasites anything 

[i-Ram]

53 minutes ago, sage said:

Derby don't owe MSD £21m.

Mel does as a mortgage on the ground. 

If the new owner buys the ground he COULD pay this to own the ground OR rent it off Mel who continues to pay the mortgage 

 

Sage there is a document I can’t fully access at the mo - Notice of Administrators Proposals - registered at Companies House in November. The MSD debt was £20m, and is owed by the Club. Page 43 and 45, and other pages of that document confirm it. Morris structured the deal in a way that the Club does indeed owe the money, but offered supporting security of the stadium, which is owned by Gellaw Newco 202, and ultimately owned by Morris via his holding company Gellaw Newco 204. So your first two statements are not correct. You are more correct regarding your third statement - a new owner can buy the ground, subject to the security (if MSD agree and the debt is transferred) or if the MSD debt is repaid.

@PistoldPete as to your point, it would seem that Binnie’s proposal only works on the basis that he as the Club and MSD renegotiate that debt over a longer term, still cross secured by Morris/Gellaw/Stadium during that period, until such time as Binnie/the Club buys back the Stadium from Morris/Gellaw, when MSD would probably be repaid in full. Binnie/the Club will presumably service the MSD debt until that point from moneys that might otherwise be due payable to Morris/Gellaw under the terms of the lease. All messy, but doable if all parties are agreed, and MSD effectively stay any claim for repayment until sometime after administration is finalised/Binnie takes control.

 

[i-Ram]

6 minutes ago, Keepyuppy said:

That loan owed to MSD is MM’s loan personally, as he owns Pride Park and not part of the sale of the club. 

I am sorry, but it is not. See post above.

[Sparkle]

8 minutes ago, Maharan said:

That would create huge problems for transfer business surely? Everyone would want paying up front. 

Which would be what you can actually afford ! 

[Ghost of Clough]

4 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

From everything I had read up to this point, I had believed that the £20m was a debt of Derby County, however, having re-visited the statement of affairs, I now agree with you that it isn't, instead I believe it to be a debt of a group company secured against club assets.

If that is correct, the actual debts of the club stand at around £64m.

Of that £64m circa £12m is owed to related companies (Gellaw and Club DCFC) so one would assume that these may not need to be repaid?

A further £6m was for advance season ticket sales, once again, although a liability by definition, this is something that will not need to be repaid if we are going to carry on trading.

If my thoughts and calculations are  correct, we therefore need £46m to pay off the creditors in full.

£8m of that relates to transfer installments so could also be due over a period of time.

Is it possible that we've all got swept away with the sensationalist headlines in the media and although bad, the debts of the club are actually not as catastrophic as painted?

In another couple of months time there will be another £10m? coming in the form of season ticket sales and our forward projections may show is in a sustainable position?

Its been a while but for the first time in a long time I feel optimistic about the future.

Oh and we're going to smash the red dogs today. COYR!

My belief was that we would have been sustainable over the current season if not for the ST situation and servicing debt. I have very little doubt that next season, if we remain in the Championship, will be sustainable.

We're running with annual costs of something like £20-25m (£12m wages). Revenue in non-covid times would be £30m+. Match receipts and TV money takes us to more than £17m. In 17/18, we received £5m in sponsorship. It's hard to believe that figure hasn't risen given all of the media attention in the following years...

 

The asking price is what I'd expect based on debt which must be repaid. Roughly speaking, I make it to be the following:

Employees - 600k (100%)

HMRC - £26.5m (25% upon agreeing)

Player fees - £8.4m (some already paid off, rest to be paid when due)

Admin fees - £5m (100%)

Admin loan - £5m (100%)

Others - £8m (25%)

[i-Ram]

13 minutes ago, Bob The Badger said:

This makes me want to canonize Rooney.

But he'd have to be dead for that happen and he has to lead us out of this mess and into the Premier League first.

Thanks to @angieram for posting this in the other thread.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b94deebc-7ad5-11ec-9998-b2483743c25e?shareToken=67dbf7f4530033813339162cd2845a6e

Agreed. The article shows Rooney in a ‘man of the people’ light, and neatly summarises how Morris’s financial mismanagement and relationship mismanagement got us into the mess we are in today. The article also confirms:

Perhaps most significant of all [of the Club’s] liabilities is the £20 million loan from MSD Holdings. Morris secured the loan against the Pride Park stadium that he still owns and also provided a personal guarantee for the money. If the administrators cannot raise sufficient funds from a new owner, the US investment group presumably goes after Morris.

[DarkFruitsRam7]

19 minutes ago, Bob The Badger said:

This makes me want to canonize Rooney.

But he'd have to be dead for that happen and he has to lead us out of this mess and into the Premier League first.

Thanks to @angieram for posting this in the other thread.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b94deebc-7ad5-11ec-9998-b2483743c25e?shareToken=67dbf7f4530033813339162cd2845a6e

Christ, that doesn’t paint Mel in a good light!

[I know nuffin]

14 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

Sage there is a document I can’t fully access at the mo - Notice of Administrators Proposals - registered at Companies House in November. The MSD debt was £20m, and is owed by the Club. Page 43 and 45, and other pages of that document confirm it. Morris structured the deal in a way that the Club does indeed owe the money, but offered supporting security of the stadium, which is owned by Gellaw Newco 202, and ultimately owned by Morris via his holding company Gellaw Newco 204. So your first two statements are not correct. You are more correct regarding your third statement - a new owner can buy the ground, subject to the security (if MSD agree and the debt is transferred) or if the MSD debt is repaid.

@PistoldPete as to your point, it would seem that Binnie’s proposal only works on the basis that he as the Club and MSD renegotiate that debt over a longer term, still cross secured by Morris/Gellaw/Stadium during that period, until such time as Binnie/the Club buys back the Stadium from Morris/Gellaw, when MSD would probably be repaid in full. Binnie/the Club will presumably service the MSD debt until that point from moneys that might otherwise be due payable to Morris/Gellaw under the terms of the lease. All messy, but doable if all parties are agreed, and MSD effectively stay any claim for repayment until sometime after administration is finalised/Binnie takes control.

 

What about stopping speculating, relying on press "stories" and double guessing. All we know for sure is binnies have mage an offer the value of which is covered by a NDA Sooner or later the truth will come out and there is nothing we can do about it

[RoyMac5]

1 hour ago, Charliegeorge1962 said:

I possibly think it irrelevant now who might come in unless we can show we have enough funds in the next week to see out the season.

It does look good at the moment.

TBH, I wouldn't let the administrators run a tap let alone this sorry saga.

Because it's easy to sell a club with multi-million pound unsubstantiated, potential football creditor claims against it? Oh and masses of HMRC debt, oh and no stadium, oh and a limited squad? 

[StaffsRam]

7 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

Perhaps most significant of all [of the Club’s] liabilities is the £20 million loan from MSD Holdings. Morris secured the loan against the Pride Park stadium that he still owns and also provided a personal guarantee for the money. If the administrators cannot raise sufficient funds from a new owner, the US investment group presumably goes after Morris.

[i-Ram]

8 minutes ago, I know nuffin said:

What about stopping speculating, relying on press "stories" and double guessing. All we know for sure is binnies have mage an offer the value of which is covered by a NDA Sooner or later the truth will come out and there is nothing we can do about it

@David the guy who posted this, who apparently knows nuffin, might have a point. Let’s close down the forum until we are out of administration, as Sooner or later the truth will come out and there is nothing we can do about it

Edited January 22, 2022 by i-Ram

[strawhillram]

14 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Because it's easy to sell a club with multi-million pound unsubstantiated, potential football creditor claims against it? Oh and masses of HMRC debt, oh and no stadium, oh and a limited squad? 

Otherwise we are in great shape

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

Sage there is a document I can’t fully access at the mo - Notice of Administrators Proposals - registered at Companies House in November. The MSD debt was £20m, and is owed by the Club. Page 43 and 45, and other pages of that document confirm it. Morris structured the deal in a way that the Club does indeed owe the money, but offered supporting security of the stadium, which is owned by Gellaw Newco 202, and ultimately owned by Morris via his holding company Gellaw Newco 204. So your first two statements are not correct. You are more correct regarding your third statement - a new owner can buy the ground, subject to the security (if MSD agree and the debt is transferred) or if the MSD debt is repaid.

@PistoldPete as to your point, it would seem that Binnie’s proposal only works on the basis that he as the Club and MSD renegotiate that debt over a longer term, still cross secured by Morris/Gellaw/Stadium during that period, until such time as Binnie/the Club buys back the Stadium from Morris/Gellaw, when MSD would probably be repaid in full. Binnie/the Club will presumably service the MSD debt until that point from moneys that might otherwise be due payable to Morris/Gellaw under the terms of the lease. All messy, but doable if all parties are agreed, and MSD effectively stay any claim for repayment until sometime after administration is finalised/Binnie takes control.

 

I'm not an administrator, so do not fully understand the Statement of Affairs filed at Companies House.

Not sure if you know the answer or not, but why is the £20m NOT shown as a liability if it is owed by the club?

[i-Ram]

4 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

I'm not an administrator, so do not fully understand the Statement of Affairs filed at Companies House.

Not sure if you know the answer or not, but why is the £20m NOT shown as a liability if it is owed by the club?

You are an accountant though. What’s your point, as I am out at the mo, for the next hour or two, so only have my phone at hand ?. Perhaps copy the page or pages for ease. 

[Charlie George]

36 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

My belief was that we would have been sustainable over the current season if not for the ST situation and servicing debt. I have very little doubt that next season, if we remain in the Championship, will be sustainable.

We're running with annual costs of something like £20-25m (£12m wages). Revenue in non-covid times would be £30m+. Match receipts and TV money takes us to more than £17m. In 17/18, we received £5m in sponsorship. It's hard to believe that figure hasn't risen given all of the media attention in the following years...

 

The asking price is what I'd expect based on debt which must be repaid. Roughly speaking, I make it to be the following:

Employees - 600k (100%)

HMRC - £26.5m (25% upon agreeing)

Player fees - £8.4m (some already paid off, rest to be paid when due)

Admin fees - £5m (100%)

Admin loan - £5m (100%)

Others - £8m (25%)

Take off the admin fees and give or take a couple of quid that £28 million - the Binnie bid.

Football debts paid in full and other debts paid at the 25% minimum required to exit administration penalty free.

Kieran Maguire talking nonsense and scaremongering. Clearly has agenda against Derby County. 

[Gritstone Ram]

How much money have these Binnies got? It is the family who have put the offer in not Carlisle Capital.

[DarkFruitsRam7]

8 minutes ago, Charlie George said:

Kieran Maguire talking nonsense and scaremongering. Clearly has agenda against Derby County. 

99% of the people accused of having an agenda against Derby do not have an agenda against Derby.

[Ram-Alf]

40 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

Christ, that doesn’t paint Mel in a good light!

To quote Jimmy Cricket...There's More!