The Administration Thread

[May Contain Nuts]

24 minutes ago, Curtains said:

Didn’t people think Boro/ Wycombe were the problem and Mel was gifting the Stadium and paying off MSD loan !

I don't think anyone thought MM was gifting us the stadium, despite his "sell it for £1" comment years ago - people's trust in Morris to do what he says he's going to has almost entirely evaporated. I got confused and thought he's only said that on the condition we were promoted, but that was something to do with season ticket prices.  Shame we didn't get promoted, we'd have had proof that he was a narcissistic liar a few years earlier!

Boro / Wycombe were the biggest problem, and they (with the help of the EFL) ensured that they were the problem for long enough (as late into January as possible) that the damage they caused had as big a knock-on effect as possible. The main cause for us looking 90% certain for League One are the actions of Boro / Wycombe/ (& the inaction of) EFL. (Obviously the -21 isn't their fault, but without their interjection we'd have overcome that ages ago)

Just because the stadium is now a problem, it doesn't mean it always was. As a Championship club bidders would probably do a deal for it, as a League One club they won't.

 

 

Edited April 4, 2022 by Coconut's Beard

[StarterForTen]

As Mel is in danger of discovering, a football stadium without a football club in it ISN'T an asset - it's a white elephant.

From a day-to-day business cost perspective, a stadium lease negotiated on favourable terms (ie circa 4% of real estate value and with all revenue streams to the tenant) is the best way to go.

However, I suspect most of those considering buying the club want the stadium included as it gives them bricks and mortar against which to borrow.

For example... Negotiate a purchase of club and stadium for £30m and then arrange a £30m commercial mortgage at 6%, the £150k/month interest repayments to be met by the club from future incomes = true cost of cash required for individual for purchase club and stadium of £nil.

Let's be honest, the Glazers did it to buy Manchester United with it's own future revenues so it's hardly rocket science.

Edited April 4, 2022 by StarterForTen

[Curtains]

2 minutes ago, Coconut's Beard said:

I don't think anyone thought MM was gifting us the stadium, despite his "sell it for £1" comment years ago - people's trust in Morris to do what he says he's going to has almost entirely evaporated. I got confused and thought he's only said that on the condition we were promoted, but that was something to do with season ticket prices.  Shame we didn't get promoted, we'd have had proof that he was a narcissistic liar a few years earlier!

Boro / Wycombe were the biggest problem, and they (with the help of the EFL) ensured that they were the problem for long enough (as late into January as possible) that the damage they caused had as big a knock-on effect as possible. The main cause for us looking 90% certain for League One are the actions of Boro / Wycombe/ (& the inaction of) EFL

Just because the stadium is now a problem, it doesn't mean it always was. As a Championship club bidders would probably do a deal for it, as a League One club they won't.

 

 

I was being slightly facetious but I agree with all this. 

[Eatonram]

People say they wouldn’t “own” the stadium but it is possible to own the stadium but with a mortgage or loan to finance it just like we did when PP was first built or every club has done when financing a new build stadium. 

[PistoldPete]

46 minutes ago, Elwood P Dowd said:

The purchase of an existing building wouldn’t qualify for public works but the purchase of community asset might qualify for a loan

Have a read through the Prudential Code Regime for Local Authorities. 

I will take your word for it. 

[TuffLuff]

24 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

The problem with that argument is, you have to have a functioning football to team to drive all of that.  If we have no team, then we get no income.  Even after GSE had driven costs down as much as they could, we were still losing ~£7m a year.  For a club the size of Derby, with all the associated costs, we're going to struggle to do much more than break even at Championship level, let alone League 1.  If you want to actually make money from Derby, you need to invest to get the club to into the prem and keep it there. 

For me, the big worry about not owning the stadium would be what happens in 5/10/20 years time.  Yeah, we may have an agreement with Mel Morris about cheap rents etc right now, but what happens if decides to sell it, or (not wanting to wish ill on anybody etc) if he dies and it gets passed on to whoever?  It could end up being owned by literally anybody, who could charge literally anything to rent it.  You'd have to have some kind of cast-iron guarantee that the club, and only the club, was allowed to buy it.  And I have no idea how viable that is, legally.  At least if it's owned by the council, it would remove some of that worry.

Oh yeah, I agree it doesn’t make a viable business but I’m just saying in terms of anyone bidding on the club then having a loyal fanbase willing to partake with money then that does hold some value.

I think maybe a slightly forgotten aspect in terms of the Appleby bid is that he did do an interview about 18 months ago, I think with the Rams Review podcast (apologies if it was someone else) where he basically said the business he was setting up with Rush was to takeover struggling clubs and get them to a point where it’s breaking even. That’s not to say his business strategy wouldn’t include the stadium, but hopefully there is some room to get a deal done within what his being proposed. Personally I do think the council deal has been set up probably with Applebys bid in mind, or at least to tell Ashley that if you want the stadium then up your bid and stop wasting time. 

I think there are so many ifs and bits in regards to a stadium deal I’m gonna wait and see what it looks like once it’s sorted. I think ideally it’s in everyone’s interest to not be in Mels hands!

[Chester40]

1 hour ago, Coconut's Beard said:

Why, so people can throw another hissy fit? Why should they continue to take the flak for other people messing about?

They've probably decided it's utterly pointless, and they'd be right.

They've told us sweet FA because there's sweet FA to tell us. It's trying to tell us more than sweet FA that's got them into trouble multiple times already. There is no update, things are still being worked on behind the scenes, the situation changes daily, they can't reveal details. They should have just stuck to that line all along, regardless of fan unrest.

Unless the update is "this is the preferred bidder, it's set in stone, they've agreed to be named and have provided proof of funds to both ourselves and the EFL who are in agreement that the terms and conditions of their bid are acceptable. They will be assuming control of daily activities surrounding the running of Derby County Football Club, supported by ourselves and the football league until the transaction has been fulfilled" then it won't be good enough.

If the update is 'we hoped to name a PB over a week ago, but we still haven't been able to because... of fresh bidders/people dropping out/hope to get improved bid/the EFL require more information..' that's the update, doesn't seem that difficult.  

At least confirm they haven't done it. Have they actually confirmed it? Have they decided to extend the deadline? Got bids to consider? Plans to meet with anybody,  plans to meet with the people who got them to confirm this timeline they appear to have missed?

[24Charlie]

There is only one thing holding up the sale. Folk are getting all twisted up trying to understand conflicting stories from different sources.

It's survival or relegation. That's what the buyers are waiting for. They won't tell us because it doesn't look good for a saviour waiting to be lauded by Derby County supporters to really have been holding on to get us on the cheap resulting in the cause of some serious mental anguish amongst the faithful.

[May Contain Nuts]

40 minutes ago, Chester40 said:

If the update is 'we hoped to name a PB over a week ago, but we still haven't been able to because... of fresh bidders/people dropping out/hope to get improved bid/the EFL require more information..' that's the update, doesn't seem that difficult.  

At least confirm they haven't done it. Have they actually confirmed it? Have they decided to extend the deadline? Got bids to consider? Plans to meet with anybody,  plans to meet with the people who got them to confirm this timeline they appear to have missed?

They have acknowledged that it hasn't happened - it was covered by their previous statement. The statement was quite telling when it came to talk of people not engaging properly with the process, delaying things etc, but without going into (or being able to go into) specifics was written off as being just another excuse.

The actual content of it was mainly ignored in favour of people queening about being 'threatened' etc, even though the part of the statement referring to fan behaviour came about on the back of someone tweeting that Stephen Pearce needs to watch his back, something that could be perceived as an actual threat (the author of the tweet has acknowledged it wasn't his finest worded moment).

The answers you've asked for there are the sort of details they can't go into, so while it may not seem difficult they'd be prejudicing the process.

So, again, probably better just not to say anything until it's either complete or it collapses?

 

 

Edited April 4, 2022 by Coconut's Beard

[Addingham Ram]

15 minutes ago, 24Charlie said:

There is only one thing holding up the sale. Folk are getting all twisted up trying to understand conflicting stories from different sources.

It's survival or relegation. That's what the buyers are waiting for. They won't tell us because it doesn't look good for a saviour waiting to be lauded by Derby County supporters to really have been holding on to get us on the cheap resulting in the cause of some serious mental anguish amongst the faithful.

I fear you are right.

Who'd put a bid in now based on being in the Championship next year?

[Oldben]

1 hour ago, StarterForTen said:

As Mel is in danger of discovering, a football stadium without a football club in it ISN'T an asset - it's a white elephant.

From a day-to-day business cost perspective, a stadium lease negotiated on favourable terms (ie circa 4% of real estate value and with all revenue streams to the tenant) is the best way to go.

However, I suspect most of those considering buying the club want the stadium included as it gives them bricks and mortar against which to borrow.

For example... Negotiate a purchase of club and stadium for £30m and then arrange a £30m commercial mortgage at 6%, the £150k/month interest repayments to be met by the club from future incomes = true cost of cash required for individual for purchase club and stadium of £nil.

Let's be honest, the Glazers did it to buy Manchester United with it's own future revenues so it's hardly rocket science.

Binnie brothers said they would offer 30 million without the stadium included.

[ram59]

12 minutes ago, 24Charlie said:

There is only one thing holding up the sale. Folk are getting all twisted up trying to understand conflicting stories from different sources.

It's survival or relegation. That's what the buyers are waiting for. They won't tell us because it doesn't look good for a saviour waiting to be lauded by Derby County supporters to really have been holding on to get us on the cheap resulting in the cause of some serious mental anguish amongst the faithful.

Agreed, I don't think the sale will go through until our fate is known, unless the bidders have been asked to submit 2 bids each, one based on championship football and one lg1. This could complicate matters whereby the PB for the championship could be different to the PB for lg1.

Regarding the sale of PP, I can see MM's side of the argument. If he accepts a low price, he is not giving the stadium to us, he's giving to some very rich people at a bargain price. However, he could accept a low price off the council and in effect give it to the people of Derbyshire at a low price. At the figures being discussed, the ground would give a decent annual return on the investment, with the possibility of selling the ground to the clubs owners in better times, for a considerable profit.

[Kathcairns]

1 hour ago, PistoldPete said:

They can borrow money for Public Works. Investment in PPS would count as that I think. So borrow £81 m from Treasury, buy PPS back at a price of £81m on condition Morris pays off our debts. Including money owed by DCFC to the treasury. Sorted. 

They managed to build a 30million velodrome which is now a white elephant, im sure our ground woud be a better investment.

[Stive Pesley]

2 minutes ago, ram59 said:

he could accept a low price off the council

I keep seeing this stuff about "the City Council buying the ground" as some sort of solution, but I don't get why that makes any difference?

If all the new owners want to own the ground - then surely a scenario where MM sells to the council (at whatever price) is still just as unattractive to the bidders? They still don't own the ground

 

[Sparkle]

1 hour ago, Unlucky Alf said:

All the above makes sense, But, Why would anyone buy a Football Club that doesn't own the Stadium, They're buying debt, With very little assets, A few players in contract, Not 100% sure what Moor Farm entails ie lease or ownership, A team that could be either in league 1 or worse liquidated.

This is the biggest mess since a lorry load of trifle crashed on the M1 causing huge jams

Absolutely - yet an initial outlay may open up to the possibility of purchasing the stadium later on especially if we were fortunate to actually make it to the money league - I know it’s hard to find positives and logic currently to the mess 

[Curtains]

Just now, Stive Pesley said:

I keep seeing this stuff about "the City Council buying the ground" as some sort of solution, but I don't get why that makes any difference?

If all the new owners want to own the ground - then surely a scenario where MM sells to the council (at whatever price) is still just as unattractive to the bidders? They still don't own the ground

 

It’s a whole different scenario if the Council owned the ground as opposed to a private company.

The Council have the best interests of the City at heart .

Surely you can see that 

[strawhillram]

8 minutes ago, Kathcairns said:

They managed to build a 30million velodrome which is now a white elephant, im sure our ground woud be a better investment.

Once the council get in the saddle I think we will see the wheels start to turn and there will be a chain reaction

[DavesaRam]

5 minutes ago, Curtains said:

It’s a whole different scenario if the Council owned the ground as opposed to a private company.

The Council have the best interests of the City at heart .

Surely you can see that 

"The Council SHOULD have the best interests of the City at heart" would be a better way to express it, but history shows that it doesn't pan out like that - Assembly Rooms, A52 bridge anybody?

[NottsRam77]

2 hours ago, Unlucky Alf said:

All the above makes sense, But, Why would anyone buy a Football Club that doesn't own the Stadium, They're buying debt, With very little assets, A few players in contract, Not 100% sure what Moor Farm entails ie lease or ownership, A team that could be either in league 1 or worse liquidated.

This is the biggest mess since a lorry load of trifle crashed on the M1 causing huge jams

Theyre buying a fanbase, theyre buying a city effectively.

Football isnt like any other sort of industry.

theres historic data thatt doesnt just suggest but tells u that if u get that team in black and white playing the This city (not the one im in lol) will back this club to the hilt.

weve had shitstorm after shitstorm thrown at us and last time i looked we were still the 3rd best supported club in the league only 4k average off forest in top who are having their best season in 20 years 

thats what someone is buying 

coyr!!!!!!!!!

[Ram-Alf]

20 minutes ago, Sparkle said:

Absolutely - yet an initial outlay may open up to the possibility of purchasing the stadium later on especially if we were fortunate to actually make it to the money league - I know it’s hard to find positives and logic currently to the mess 

I posted yesterday that I thought that if the Council do buy PP, Then there could be an opportunity for the purchaser of DCFC to buy PP at a later date.

My feeling is this will go to the wire ie when the season has finished and a sale will be completed...no evidence just optimism and hope