Derby finally accept 21 point deduction.

[Bris Vegas]

7 hours ago, PistoldPete said:

Last season we had 8 points from 15 games. Yet still stayed up. This season we have 18 points from 15, so we are already 10 points ahead of last season at the same stage.  Even with a points deduction our position is not completely impossible .

The scenarios are different however.

Last season after 17 games we had 12 points. After 17 games last season Sheffield Wednesday had 9 points, Wycombe had 11 points and Rotherham had 13 points. We were only 1 point behind at this stage last season.

Now, we are currently 9 points behind. We don’t have 18 points, we have SIX points.

And the 18 points we have collected after 17 games would be around 49 over a season. Teams have been relegated from the Championship with more than that total anyway.

Just to match last season’s total of 44 points which was only good enough to stay up due to Sheffield Wednesday’s points deduction, we need another 38 points from 29 games. That would be 60 over a season. 

I’m not saying let’s give up. But, let’s be honest, we’ve only won 4 league games in the last 32 under Wayne Rooney dating back to last season. Hardly screams of mid table form. We’re going down.

 

[B4ev6is]

18 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

The scenarios are different however.

Last season after 17 games we had 12 points. After 17 games last season Sheffield Wednesday had 9 points, Wycombe had 11 points and Rotherham had 13 points. We were only 1 point behind at this stage last season.

Now, we are currently 9 points behind. We don’t have 18 points, we have SIX points.

And the 18 points we have collected after 17 games would be around 49 over a season. Teams have been relegated from the Championship with more than that total anyway.

Just to match last season’s total of 44 points which was only good enough to stay up due to Sheffield Wednesday’s points deduction, we need another 38 points from 29 games. That would be 60 over a season. 

I’m not saying let’s give up. But, let’s be honest, we’ve only won 4 league games in the last 32 under Wayne Rooney dating back to last season. Hardly screams of mid table form. We’re going down.

 

Stop being so flaming negative he has no money to spend he has to make do.

[Ram1988]

14 minutes ago, B4ev6is said:

Stop being so flaming negative he has no money to spend he has to make do.

Well said B4. I think Rooney has exceeded expectations given the sqaud we have. 

Any chance of staying up relies on us being able to bring in reinforcements in January.

[Norman]

Facts don't have feelings.

[PistoldPete]

2 hours ago, Andrew1 said:

On the BBC website is it says

“administrators are talking to the Football League about potential punishments for other financial breaches in future years.”

What does that mean?  Or am I being daft?

Andrew

We have only submitted accounts up to 2018. So anything after 2018 is in the future  if you see what I mean.

[Bris Vegas]

1 hour ago, B4ev6is said:

Stop being so flaming negative he has no money to spend he has to make do.

This wasn’t a blame Rooney post. It was simply spelling out the situation we currently face and the uphill task of staying in the league.

[jono]

3 hours ago, Bris Vegas said:

This wasn’t a blame Rooney post. It was simply spelling out the situation we currently face and the uphill task of staying in the league.

Sure it is. And technically you were right in your post,  yet when it’s in print, you so often do it with a smart ass sneer that it gets people’s backs up.
A famous manager once said “The first rule of intelligence is to remember the other person isn’t stupid.”

If you think anyone of us, (even the most happy clappy gung-ho optimists) doesn’t realise we have a monumental never before achieved task then you do think we are all stupid ! We’re not - but we are supporters and need hope - however faint. 

[jono]

5 hours ago, uttoxram75 said:

Looks like thats going to be the case dunt it. Maybe the administrators have called the EFL's bluff knowing they haven't got enough on us to go for further points?

I don't agree with 12 at all, its not been done with professionalism, its petty minded vindictiveness from bamfords like Maguire and Gibson putting public pressure on the lily livered tosspots at the EFL but so be it, we'll survive with 12 and that will absolutely destroy them all.

 

We are of one mind I think. There is no doubt to me that force majeur is a huge mitigating factor in the admin case and thus 12 points is unjust. It is also clear that we probably deserve some deductions for P and S … what we aren’t due is multi season punishments via a vindictive unjustified process designed to continue attacking us season after season which is so disproportionate it verges on farce. 

[kevinhectoring]

6 hours ago, Bris Vegas said:

The scenarios are different however.

Last season after 17 games we had 12 points. After 17 games last season Sheffield Wednesday had 9 points, Wycombe had 11 points and Rotherham had 13 points. We were only 1 point behind at this stage last season.

Now, we are currently 9 points behind. We don’t have 18 points, we have SIX points.

And the 18 points we have collected after 17 games would be around 49 over a season. Teams have been relegated from the Championship with more than that total anyway.

Just to match last season’s total of 44 points which was only good enough to stay up due to Sheffield Wednesday’s points deduction, we need another 38 points from 29 games. That would be 60 over a season. 

I’m not saying let’s give up. But, let’s be honest, we’ve only won 4 league games in the last 32 under Wayne Rooney dating back to last season. Hardly screams of mid table form. We’re going down.

 

How did we do last season with Bielik on the pitch? Don’t you think Rooney can identify a decent striker who will join in Jan? What are the chances of at least 1 of the 17 - 21 placed teams falling like a stone? Or further points deductions for others? 

The squad’s mentality will be improved by knowing exactly what needs to be done. Yes there is a mountain to climb but we can survive the drop. 

[kevinhectoring]

7 hours ago, Andrew1 said:

On the BBC website is it says

“administrators are talking to the Football League about potential punishments for other financial breaches in future years.”

What does that mean?  Or am I being daft?

Andrew

It means the admins and EFl are agreeing everything that needs to be agreed to clear the decks, ie

- 15 points (12 plus 3) final sanction for administration and FFP 

- agreed amort basis going forward 

- agreement of FFP headroom ongoing (crucial for January)

- release of embargo 

what have I forgotten? I’d guess the admins might even throw in a few fit and proper owner tests and guidelines about business plans? 
 

Maybe not all of that would find its way into a press release 
 

One interesting question is whether we will be required to agree that waiver of the MM ‘soft’ loans will not count as profit for FFP purposes  ...

It’s a powerful calling card the admins have: “we’re appointed by the court,  get in our way and we’ll go back to court and sort you out for the benefit of creditors .”  It’s better than, “hi I’m Mel you hate my guts can you do me a favour ?

 

Edited November 9, 2021 by kevinhectoring

[CornwallRam]

27 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

It means the admins and EFl are agreeing everything that needs to be agreed to clear the decks, ie

- 15 points (12 plus 3) final sanction for administration and FFP 

- agreed amort basis going forward 

- agreement of FFP headroom ongoing (crucial for January)

- release of embargo 

what have I forgotten? I’d guess the admins might even throw in a few fit and proper owner tests and guidelines about business plans? 
 

Maybe not all of that would find its way into a press release 
 

One interesting question is whether we will be required to agree that waiver of the MM ‘soft’ loans will not count as profit for FFP purposes  ...

It’s a powerful calling card the admins have: “we’re appointed by the court,  get in our way and we’ll go back to court and sort you out for the benefit of creditors .”  It’s better than, “hi I’m Mel you hate my guts can you do me a favour ?

 

We also have to agree a two year business plan. I suppose the EFL could theoretically use this as a soft punishment if they imposed draconian limits.

[Crewton]

When the EFL imposed points deductions on Birmingham and Wednesday, they "wiped the slate clean" in respect of breaches of P&S limits caused by the seasons covered by the period the clubs had been punished for. It'll be interesting to see how they treat us. Provided we sign up to the same regime as the other two, I'd expect any further potential sanctions to be suspended, like the wages issue is. 

[PistoldPete]

9 hours ago, Coconut's Beard said:

Regardless of what lead to what or how reluctant the amortisation decision, how adamant the club were on this, that or the other it's a fact that we are officially guilty of the amortisation stuff, and have faced our punishment for it.

That the punishment cascaded downwards and lead directly to us failing FFP is neither here nor there unfortunately. We're not dealing with a compassionate organisation.

The only thing I'm saying is impossible is us having that overturned or somehow using how close a decision it was as a bargaining tool, which is what you suggested in your first post! We lost, they won. It's hard to accept but accept it we must, because it isn't changing.

I didn't say the outcome of anything else in our case was decided, but you're putting forward a situation where we hold as strong a hand as the EFL just because they don't want us to set a precedent. We don't (imo) and personally I think we'd have to be kidding ourselves to believe that was the case.

We're running out of time to get this all sorted, they have all the time in the world.

Our bargaining chip is not setting a precedent for future exploitation of an unprecedented situation. Their bargaining chip is the existence of the club.

As far as I am aware the controversial amortisation decision by the FAP does not set a legal precedent. So it cannot be used again and again to hit us in future years.

it only relates to the 2015 to 2018 period.

[Crewton]

12 hours ago, plymouthram said:

Just had a nose on the Bristol City forum, Mr (Have a) Pop at us is not a happy bunny. If we get any kind of result with the adminstration 12 point deduction and the other deduction being less than 9 points, he will probably write a letter to Gibson at Boro. The guy must spend hours writting about us on their forum, makes me wonder if he actually gets to any Bristol games.

I've a fair idea he lives abroad, possibly somewhere East, maybe 4+ hours ahead of us - a few clues, particularly the fact that his posts are often after midnight our time. I'm thinking maybe somewhere sad ageing blokes go to exploit young women. I think, therefore, it's unlikely that he gets down the 'Gate' much these days. 

[TooFarInToTurnRed]

1 hour ago, kevinhectoring said:

It means the admins and EFl are agreeing everything that needs to be agreed to clear the decks, ie

- 15 points (12 plus 3) final sanction for administration and FFP 

- agreed amort basis going forward 

- agreement of FFP headroom ongoing (crucial for January)

- release of embargo 

what have I forgotten? I’d guess the admins might even throw in a few fit and proper owner tests and guidelines about business plans? 
 

Maybe not all of that would find its way into a press release 
 

One interesting question is whether we will be required to agree that waiver of the MM ‘soft’ loans will not count as profit for FFP purposes  ...

It’s a powerful calling card the admins have: “we’re appointed by the court,  get in our way and we’ll go back to court and sort you out for the benefit of creditors .”  It’s better than, “hi I’m Mel you hate my guts can you do me a favour ?

 

Forest claimed a £5m “profit” in their latest accounts from the writing off of a loan. Precedent now set on that I think. 

[BathRam72]

Just a thought. It is widely known that MM gambled and it didn't pay off. As such the club is suffering and he is away Scot free (albeit with a dented purse).

So the club are left to pick up the pieces.

However who sanctions the owner and checks them against the fit and proper scheme etc? would that be the EFL? Maybe we should give them a deduction and  fine.

 

 

Tongue in cheek obviously, but they should shoulder some of the blame for being inept.

[eccles the ram]

I pray this will be done and dusted by the time we play Bournemouth. Hope it's only an extra 3 points which will give us a chance if we can get new faces in January and ownership sorted. We then know how many points we need to stay up. I am now rather upbeat as I can see Reading getting a 9 points deduction bringing them closer to us. I see back end of the season we are in a mini league of six teams where three will go down. I think the last home match against Cardiff will be bigger than the one against Wednesday last season! UTR

[Woodley Ram]

15 minutes ago, Crewton said:

I've a fair idea he lives abroad, possibly somewhere East, maybe 4+ hours ahead of us - a few clues, particularly the fact that his posts are often after midnight our time. I'm thinking maybe somewhere sad ageing blokes go to exploit young women. I think, therefore, it's unlikely that he gets down the 'Gate' much these days. 

bit naughty @Crewton you need to take the exploit young women comment back. That's not an appropriate label to give anyone

[Donnyram]

12 hours ago, Papahet said:

Don't understand why we appealed anyway...?

 

We broke the rules and knew the consequences. Take the punishment 

More likely leverage in negotiation against further punishment…….

[BathRam72]

14 minutes ago, eccles the ram said:

I pray this will be done and dusted by the time we play Bournemouth. Hope it's only an extra 3 points which will give us a chance if we can get new faces in January and ownership sorted. We then know how many points we need to stay up. I am now rather upbeat as I can see Reading getting a 9 points deduction bringing them closer to us. I see back end of the season we are in a mini league of six teams where three will go down. I think the last home match against Cardiff will be bigger than the one against Wednesday last season! UTR

Can you let me know the lottery numbers for next week please?