Steve Gibson trying to liquidate Derby

[G STAR RAM]

14 minutes ago, Crewton said:

You have to wonder at the sheer hypocrisy of the guy. From a Boro forum:

I wonder when that was revalued?? ?

Had a quick glance at the accounts and they appear to have regular revaluations.

Their ground and training facilties are shown at nothing like that value in the accounts and, unless the revaluations are being treated as income for P&S, I don't really see the issue?

[Maharan]

Am I missing something here? I thought the article said several clubs had complained to the EFL about the administration team turning down offers, not that the EFL support them? I’d imagine they’ll ignore such protests surely? 
 

As some may have noticed, I’ve been fairly pessimistic about liquidation since day1, but honestly, I don’t think it’ll happen on the grounds of the cases brought by Borough and Wycombe. I have a feeling the boro case will be dropped on the 1st February. I’ve got no inside information, but I just get the feeling it’s a stalling tactic rather than an existential threat.

[RoyMac5]

Quote

Despite various stories in newspapers and on Twitter, there is no further progress with the claims of Middlesbrough and Wycombe, but these will not prevent a preferred bidder from being named. After that Carl hopes further discussions can take place with all parties and hopes an agreement can still be arrived at.

https://www.dcfcbawt.org/post/black-white-together-s-meeting-with-the-administrators-10-01-2022

 

Edited January 11, 2022 by RoyMac5

[Crewton]

42 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Had a quick glance at the accounts and they appear to have regular revaluations.

Their ground and training facilties are shown at nothing like that value in the accounts and, unless the revaluations are being treated as income for P&S, I don't really see the issue?

My point was that, back in 2019, Gibson was arguing that PP was being overvalued compared to similar grounds (i.e his). Now, low and behold, the Riverside and their training ground are valued £5M higher. Commercial property values haven't increased much if anything since then, possibly fallen in the short term due to the pandemic, so what was his issue with the valuation of PP in the first place?

[Ghost of Clough]

8 hours ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

That was the first mistake made

We were forced into accepting a deal as not doing so would have blocked any takeover from happening until resolved. Odds on that taking more than the season to be concluded being pretty slim.

[hintonsboots]

3 minutes ago, Crewton said:

My point was that, back in 2019, Gibson was arguing that PP was being overvalued compared to similar grounds (i.e his). Now, low and behold, the Riverside and their training ground are valued £5M higher. Commercial property values haven't increased much if anything since then, possibly fallen in the short term due to the pandemic, so what was his issue with the valuation of PP in the first place?

Get onto Kieran?

[Ghost of Clough]

7 minutes ago, Crewton said:

My point was that, back in 2019, Gibson was arguing that PP was being overvalued compared to similar grounds (i.e his). Now, low and behold, the Riverside and their training ground are valued £5M higher. Commercial property values haven't increased much if anything since then, possibly fallen in the short term due to the pandemic, so what was his issue with the valuation of PP in the first place?

Gibson must have sacked the valuer he used to value PPS at £20m and hired the one we used ?

Remember that Gibson actually helped in the planning of PPS to suggest improvements over his own stadium. Must be a pretty nice training ground they have up there...

[Crewton]

8 minutes ago, hintonsboots said:

Get onto Kieran?

I'm not sure what, if any, advantage the revaluation gives them in terms of FFP. Sale of stadiums is now excluded as relevant to FFP calculations, but it's worth keeping an eye on their figures for this season in case he's got another tax loss wangle under his syrup. 

[Ghost of Clough]

3 minutes ago, Crewton said:

I'm not sure what, if any, advantage the revaluation gives them in terms of FFP. Sale of stadiums is now excluded as relevant to FFP calculations, but it's worth keeping an eye on their figures for this season in case he's got another tax loss wangle under his syrup. 

I think they only have to match the losses in 20/21 to stay within limits. Looking at their transfer activity in the summer, I would guess those losses will be lower than £35m this time.

[i-Ram]

10 hours ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

Unfortunately I-ram the game has changed since Saturday I think. Administrators were clearly confident they could resolve the Boro thing but EFL not supporting them, and now other clubs are whinging because we have the audacity to reject their low ball offers.

Sure we may be able to extend Jags and Baldock but I’d be amazed if we brought anyone in, too many clubs fighting against it. If we can’t have a preferred bidder named and an exit strategy approved then unless we can get funding from prospective buyer (can we do this if we haven’t finalised our exit plan I don’t know?) or MSD then we will be forced to sell.

Quantuma being shafted by Boro and the EFL, that’s the delay, it’s quite obvious now.

I still think this is being blown out of proportion by too much weight being given to Percy’s tweet/article. The statement by BAWT doesn’t seem half as sensational, and the key is getting a preferred bidder selected who is prepared to take the Middlesborough claim on (through the courts if necessary). They are owed nothing until a Court awards them such status. No Court is going to do that, and Gibson knows it. He will have no desire to waste money on Costs.

[Bad Sheep]

16 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

People need to read my posts ? 

The post below is an amazing (estimated) breakdown, which shows we made losses greater than £4m in more than just 3 seasons.
The final penalty was for 3 failed periods (2014-2017, 2016-2019 and 2017-2021), so 3 breaches. Based on precedent, those 3 failed periods should have seen us deducted 17 points.

Note, this was WITH the stadium sale included.

OK, makes sense given those numbers but why do your figures vary so greatly from those published in this Guardian article?

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/jan/16/Derby-charged-breaching-financial-fair-play-rules-efl-football-league

[TigerTedd]

20 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

I still think this is being blown out of proportion by too much weight being given to Percy’s tweet/article. The statement by BAWT doesn’t seem half as sensational, and the key is getting a preferred bidder selected who is prepared to take the Middlesborough claim on (through the courts if necessary). They are owed nothing until a Court awards them such status. No Court is going to do that, and Gibson knows it. He will have no desire to waste money on Costs.

Problem is though, as a business man, is it worth buying a business with pending court cases. It seems like a slam dunk in our favour, but you never know, is it worth the risk. At the very least it would devalue Derby. I’d definitely be using this as a way to negotiate the price down. If I’ve got to fights someone else’s court cases, I’m not paying top dollar. 

[TigerTedd]

30 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

I think they only have to match the losses in 20/21 to stay within limits. Looking at their transfer activity in the summer, I would guess those losses will be lower than £35m this time.

I would love them to be the next ones dicked by FFP.

Someone should redo that meme with gibbo has the EFL on strings. Because, honestly, they’ll never get done for FFP because he does have them on strings.

but maybe, that meme will tempt fate just enough for the EFL to want to cut those strings. 

[Ghost of Clough]

3 minutes ago, Bad Sheep said:

OK, makes sense given those numbers but why do your figures vary so greatly from those published in this Guardian article?

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/jan/16/Derby-charged-breaching-financial-fair-play-rules-efl-football-league

That article is from when we were first charged (2 years ago). Figures will have been under the 'Derby amortisation policy' rather than the EFL's accepted version. This means figures from 15/16 onward had to be recalculated, hence the disparity between what is in the Guardian article (and the submitted accounts) compared with my estimates.

[i-Ram]

17 minutes ago, TigerTedd said:

Problem is though, as a business man, is it worth buying a business with pending court cases. It seems like a slam dunk in our favour, but you never know, is it worth the risk. At the very least it would devalue Derby. I’d definitely be using this as a way to negotiate the price down. If I’ve got to fights someone else’s court cases, I’m not paying top dollar. 

It’s a fair point TT. I think Ashley might if he was given legal opinion that he would win. Two thoughts.

1) Morris has some equity in the stadium he sold to himself, and he allegedly wants £20m upon sale back to the club. How about he only gets that if any court claim does not proceed, or is unsuccessful.

2) If we were to lose the Court case we use the verdict, and any precedents forthcoming, to run cases ourselves against other transgressors of FFP / P&S rules.  QPR and Villa come to mind.

[Comrade 86]

2 hours ago, TigerTedd said:

Problem is though, as a business man, is it worth buying a business with pending court cases. It seems like a slam dunk in our favour, but you never know, is it worth the risk. At the very least it would devalue Derby. I’d definitely be using this as a way to negotiate the price down. If I’ve got to fights someone else’s court cases, I’m not paying top dollar. 

What pending court cases are you referring to though? No case has been filed, rather Gibson and Couhrig are attempting a smash and grab raid via the administration process. There can't be many more UK businessmen more adept at taking firms out of admin and returning them to ongoing status than Mike Ashley and he's tabled a £50 million offer, so to my mind it's pretty clear which party is causing the current delays.

To my mind this latest hold up has nothing to do with the 'value of the asset'; let's not forget, the current bids were tabled AFTER the two made their intentions known, so that bridge has effectively been crossed. Clearly then, neither Appleby and co, nor Ashley, are remotely fussed about Gibson's claims, unless of course Gibson somehow persuades the EFL to add Boro and that tin-pot club with no name to the creditors list. Frankly, I don't see a mechanism by which this is achievable, but I can see how both bidders might be wary of the EFL caving in to his demands as unlike the possible fallout from a doomed civil case, that really could present them with problems, if only for as long as appealing any such decision might take.

I also suspect Gibson is threatening the to sue the EFL if they do not acquiesce to his demands and that it is their dilly-dallying that is holding up the nomination of a preferred bidder and the first steps to move the club out of administration. Frankly, they appear absolutely terrified by Gibson and given their complete lack of backbone, perhaps they should be. After all, the rod across their back is entirely of their own making and even Derby will not fit the role of scapegoat this time around.

Devil and the deep blue sea I reckon and nothing less than they deserve. 

Edited January 11, 2022 by angieram
Remove personal insults

[strawhillram]

Unlikely but if we have to pay £50m or anything like that, that will blow our next  P&S / FFP even further again

[Tamworthram]

2 hours ago, Maharan said:

Am I missing something here? I thought the article said several clubs had complained to the EFL about the administration team turning down offers, not that the EFL support them? I’d imagine they’ll ignore such protests surely? 
 

As some may have noticed, I’ve been fairly pessimistic about liquidation since day1, but honestly, I don’t think it’ll happen on the grounds of the cases brought by Borough and Wycombe. I have a feeling the boro case will be dropped on the 1st February. I’ve got no inside information, but I just get the feeling it’s a stalling tactic rather than an existential threat.

I’m fairly confident that a lot of the story must be a load of rubbish. I really can’t see how any clubs feel they have the right to go crying to the EFL because we haven’t sold players to them at the price they have offered especially as the transfer window is still open.

I would imagine it it did happen that and the EFL took their complaints seriously and challenged the administrators they would probably either say “we think the player is worth more and we think we can get a better price which would be better for the creditors” or “we expect to have a preferred bidder, with a business plan and agreed terms with creditors shortly (not imminently ?) which means the club can hold onto that player”

If any clubs genuinely do think they have the right to force a sale, or the EFL feel they can interfere with the administrators doing job then the world really has gone mad.

[BriggRam]

I'm finding it quite quinge that some people are appealing to other clubs fans to have empathy for our plight......duck them all, siege mentality is getting this team fighting, I don't give a poo what other fans think, we're Derby County we'll fight to the end COYR

[Tamworthram]

6 minutes ago, StrawHillRam said:

Unlikely but if we have to pay £50m or anything like that, that will blow our next  P&S / FFP even further again

I really can’t see it being anywhere near £50m if anything at all. But couldn’t it be spread over a number of years? I haven’t ploughed back through previous posts but I thought I’d read somewhere this had happened in another case.