Steve Gibson trying to liquidate Derby

[RadioactiveWaste]

5 minutes ago, tinman said:

They bought when values were high, and have to sell when values are low.

 

Anyone trading will know that that's the way markets sometimes go.

My shares in my old company are worth less than what I bought them for. I might have to sell them for *reasons*. That's disappointing. I didn't save my money in an ISA, I bought shares in the employee share plan instead. That was my risk and is how it goes.

Ah diddums is all I can say to Bristol city.

[vonwright]

8 minutes ago, vonwright said:

To be fair our big P and S breaches were for seasons before COVID. Theoretically if we'd not gone into administration we would have benefitted as much as any other team from some P and S related 'COVID adjustment' for seasons where it hit revenue. 

Of course we did go into administration, and we blamed COVID for that, but so far other teams haven't. (It would definitely get interesting if a few other teams went into administration and blamed COVID.)

(This is actually one of the things that puzzles me about the claims by Wycombe and Middlesbrough: did we actually break the rules in 2020/21? Or is the argument that we somehow caused them losses by our actions from several seasons earlier? How could that be some kind of contract breach or similar with Wycombe, who weren't even in the division at that point etc etc)

[Crewton]

13 minutes ago, vonwright said:

(This is actually one of the things that puzzles me about the claims by Wycombe and Middlesbrough: did we actually break the rules in 2020/21? Or is the argument that we somehow caused them losses by our actions from several seasons earlier? How could that be some kind of contract breach or similar with Wycombe, who weren't even in the division at that point etc etc)

You're spot on. Wycombe's argument is that we deliberately delayed submitting our accounts so as to avoid being punished in 20/21, and that our "systematic cheating over many seasons" meant that we deserved to be relegated that season. But Sheffield Wednesday's case is highly relevant to that argument, because at their hearing, it was revealed that the EFL had wanted SWFC to receive a PD in season 2019/20 (because it might well have relegated them) but wanted any punishment for DCFC to be applied in 2020/21 (because we were safe from any threat of relegation so they wanted the impact to hit the following season). SWFC's Tribunal dismissed this argument, saying that it was iniquitous and pointing out that it wasn't in the remit of an LAP to apply a penalty at a time to suit the EFL nor so late as to make it impossible for the club concerned to remedy that penalty on the pitch (their initial PD of -9 was announced right at the end of the season) - essentially, they said it wasn't their job to relegate teams. Couhig cannot therefore logically claim that DCFC should have received a PD in the season in which it would have most effect since, by the same argument, if SWFC had received their original 9 point deduction in season 2019/20, they'd have been relegated instead of Charlton and the make of the division in 2020/21 would have been different, and if the reduced PD of -6 had been applied that season, they'd have stayed up and thus finished above Wycombe and us in 2020/21, all other factors being unchanged.

Boro really just want compo - relegation for us, even liquidation, is just a bonus.

[Sparkle]

1 hour ago, Crewton said:

There's so many gems in that interview with the Brizzle CEO, but I think my particular favourite is how Covid has destroyed their ability to make millions from selling players, rather than the fact that they're crap and they've got very few players anyone wants.

Well, matey, Covid has put us into Administration and meant that other clubs are trying to sign our best players for peanuts, so pardon me if I don't shed a tear at your predicament.

Let’s get this factually correct Bristol city have lost over £400,000 per week for the past 10 (ten) years and their model is based on how much they can sell players for ! - their model is based on moving sand I would suggest! 

[PistoldPete]

1 hour ago, Crewton said:

You're spot on. Wycombe's argument is that we deliberately delayed submitting our accounts so as to avoid being punished in 20/21, and that our "systematic cheating over many seasons" meant that we deserved to be relegated that season. But Sheffield Wednesday's case is highly relevant to that argument, because at their hearing, it was revealed that the EFL had wanted SWFC to receive a PD in season 2019/20 (because it might well have relegated them) but wanted any punishment for DCFC to be applied in 2020/21 (because we were safe from any threat of relegation so they wanted the impact to hit the following season). SWFC's Tribunal dismissed this argument, saying that it was iniquitous and pointing out that it wasn't in the remit of an LAP to apply a penalty at a time to suit the EFL nor so late as to make it impossible for the club concerned to remedy that penalty on the pitch (their initial PD of -9 was announced right at the end of the season) - essentially, they said it wasn't their job to relegate teams. Couhig cannot therefore logically claim that DCFC should have received a PD in the season in which it would have most effect since, by the same argument, if SWFC had received their original 9 point deduction in season 2019/20, they'd have been relegated instead of Charlton and the make of the division in 2020/21 would have been different, and if the reduced PD of -6 had been applied that season, they'd have stayed up and thus finished above Wycombe and us in 2020/21, all other factors being unchanged.

Boro really just want compo - relegation for us, even liquidation, is just a bonus.

Even if we had been relegated last year, if we hadn’t got a point against Sheffield Wednesday on the last day then Wednesday would have stayed up and Wycombe still relegated.

[PistoldPete]

1 hour ago, Crewton said:

You're spot on. Wycombe's argument is that we deliberately delayed submitting our accounts so as to avoid being punished in 20/21, and that our "systematic cheating over many seasons" meant that we deserved to be relegated that season. But Sheffield Wednesday's case is highly relevant to that argument, because at their hearing, it was revealed that the EFL had wanted SWFC to receive a PD in season 2019/20 (because it might well have relegated them) but wanted any punishment for DCFC to be applied in 2020/21 (because we were safe from any threat of relegation so they wanted the impact to hit the following season). SWFC's Tribunal dismissed this argument, saying that it was iniquitous and pointing out that it wasn't in the remit of an LAP to apply a penalty at a time to suit the EFL nor so late as to make it impossible for the club concerned to remedy that penalty on the pitch (their initial PD of -9 was announced right at the end of the season) - essentially, they said it wasn't their job to relegate teams. Couhig cannot therefore logically claim that DCFC should have received a PD in the season in which it would have most effect since, by the same argument, if SWFC had received their original 9 point deduction in season 2019/20, they'd have been relegated instead of Charlton and the make of the division in 2020/21 would have been different, and if the reduced PD of -6 had been applied that season, they'd have stayed up and thus finished above Wycombe and us in 2020/21, all other factors being unchanged.

Boro really just want compo - relegation for us, even liquidation, is just a bonus.

Isn’t that what our amortisation method was based on? That we would sell players rather than let them leave for nowt at the end of their contracts?

[PistoldPete]

2 hours ago, vonwright said:

To be fair our big P and S breaches were for seasons before COVID. Theoretically if we'd not gone into administration we would have benefitted as much as any other team from some P and S related 'COVID adjustment' for seasons where it hit revenue. 

Of course we did go into administration, and we blamed COVID for that, but so far other teams haven't. (It would definitely get interesting if a few other teams went into administration and blamed COVID.)

So why can teams avoid points deductions when COVID is the excuse, but we can’t? 
 

they are saying they couldn’t sell players because of COVID. We are saying Mel couldn’t sell the club because of cOVID. 

[RadioactiveWaste]

6 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

So why can teams avoid points deductions when COVID is the excuse, but we can’t? 
 

they are saying they couldn’t sell players because of COVID. We are saying Mel couldn’t sell the club because of cOVID. 

They can sell players, they just can't get a good price. Ah diddums.

[Tamworthram]

28 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Even if we had been relegated last year, if we hadn’t got a point against Sheffield Wednesday on the last day then Wednesday would have stayed up and Wycombe still relegated.

Is that relevant? 
 

Wycombe aren’t disputing or looking to change our result on the last day of the season just that our points deduction should have been applied last season (unless I’m missing an update).

[PistoldPete]

4 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

Is that relevant? 
 

Wycombe aren’t disputing or looking to change our result on the last day of the season just that our points deduction should have been applied last season (unless I’m missing an update).

If our points deduction had been applied last season we would have been relegated before the last game and had nothing to play for. 

 Their claim is that they have lost money because they were relegated. Which could well have happened anyway. 

[Tamworthram]

1 minute ago, PistoldPete said:

If our points deduction had been applied last season we would have been relegated before the last game and had nothing to play for. 

 Their claim is that they have lost money because they were relegated. Which could well have happened anyway. 

Doesn’t mean we would have actually lost that last game though. There are probably plenty of examples of when teams with nothing to play for deliver an unexpected result although you do have a valid point. Iif we had received our points deduction last season (early enough for us to have a chance to overcome them) then it’s anyone’s guess if the results would have remained the same.

[Sparkle]

9 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

If our points deduction had been applied last season we would have been relegated before the last game and had nothing to play for. 

 Their claim is that they have lost money because they were relegated. Which could well have happened anyway. 

We messed about so much last season that I believe we would have easily gained more points if we needed to - which we didn’t 

[RadioactiveWaste]

14 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

Is that relevant? 
 

Wycombe aren’t disputing or looking to change our result on the last day of the season just that our points deduction should have been applied last season (unless I’m missing an update).

Unless the claim is on the basis "DCFC defended their position and were found to be in breach, that defence led to the points deduction not happening until this season instead of last. As such, DCFC defending themselves caused us to get relegated and they thus owe us compensation"

Seriously. I think that's the basis from Wycombe.

[Indy]

4 minutes ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

Unless the claim is on the basis "DCFC defended their position and were found to be in breach, that defence led to the points deduction not happening until this season instead of last. As such, DCFC defending themselves caused us to get relegated and they thus owe us compensation"

Seriously. I think that's the basis from Wycombe.

I think Wycombe’s claim is that we submitted the revised accounts after the new season had started to deliberately avoid having any sanctions imposed to last season’s results. This ignores:

1. The ruling quoted above saying that points deductions shouldn’t be imposed without the chance to redeem themselves on the pitch (excluding automatic administration points)

2. The date to submit the accounts (18th August) wasn’t set by us. 

[RadioactiveWaste]

1 minute ago, Indy said:

I think Wycombe’s claim is that we submitted the revised accounts after the new season had started to deliberately avoid having any sanctions imposed to last season’s results. This ignores:

1. The ruling quoted above saying that points deductions shouldn’t be imposed without the chance to redeem themselves on the pitch (excluding automatic administration points)

2. The date to submit the accounts (18th August) wasn’t set by us. 

Derby county did do everything in their power to improve my interests at the expense of their own interests do I deserve compensation....

[vonwright]

58 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

So why can teams avoid points deductions when COVID is the excuse, but we can’t? 
 

they are saying they couldn’t sell players because of COVID. We are saying Mel couldn’t sell the club because of cOVID. 

I was talking about our P+S penalty and how that was for breaches that had nothing to do with COVID. 

P+S breaches - and how the are calculated during a pandemic - are one thing, since all clubs will have lost revenue. Penalties for going into administration are another: we are the only club to do so, and we were clearly running up large debts before the pandemic. We had the option of pursuing our claim that COVID caused administration and we dropped it. 

(For what it's worth I don't think the claim 'We couldn't sell players!' has much merit. I'm just saying COVID wasn't behind our P+S breaches. It might still cause other clubs to breach P+S.)

[Ramtastic ones]

Just seen this.

 

Middlesbrough and Stoke also face severe scrutiny as Covid-inflicted collapse in transfer values makes it impossible to offset FFP losses

 

God I hope it's true for gobson and his oh so perfect 'boro.

 

 

[PistoldPete]

2 hours ago, Tamworthram said:

Doesn’t mean we would have actually lost that last game though. There are probably plenty of examples of when teams with nothing to play for deliver an unexpected result although you do have a valid point. Iif we had received our points deduction last season (early enough for us to have a chance to overcome them) then it’s anyone’s guess if the results would have remained the same.

To be honest I have no idea what Wycombe's claim is based on. I hadn't heard they were saying we delayed our accounts for 2019/20  simply to avoid a points penalty. The original EFL charge was for periods ending 2017/18 and that was not decided on until after the 2020/21 season had ended.. because EFL has appealed, and made one application that was turned down and Boro had an application turned down too all delaying things, not due to Derby. So how we could have finalised our 2019/20 accounts with the amortistation issue undecided until May 2021 I have no idea.  

[Ramtastic ones]

3 hours ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

They can sell players, they just can't get a good price. Ah diddums.

So if you can't get good price because everybody knows your skint it's ok but if it's because of Covid it isn't. Think we might have got a tad more than we did for Bogle and Lowe with a positive bank balance.

[Ram1988]

3 hours ago, Ramtastic ones said:

Just seen this.

 

Middlesbrough and Stoke also face severe scrutiny as Covid-inflicted collapse in transfer values makes it impossible to offset FFP losses

 

God I hope it's true for gobson and his oh so perfect 'boro.

 

 

If Gibson and Boro get punished it couldn't happen to a nicer person....