The men who sell football

[Rampage]

1 hour ago, i-Ram said:

He might have got wind of stormy times ahead. Certainly a lot of dark clouds now.

It is raining puns but every cloud has a silver lining. We must remain hail and hearty about our present situation.

[i-Ram]

3 minutes ago, Rampage said:

It is raining puns but every cloud has a silver lining. We must remain hail and hearty about our present situation.

Scorchio 

 

[Rev]

There was a cold front in the directors box Saturday.

At least, I think that's what the bloke on our row called him.

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

1 hour ago, RamsFan10 said:

Hi Cressida Dick, didn't realise you were a Rams fan

She's not a Bobby,she's a social worker!

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

2 hours ago, Grumpy Git said:

 

1% equates to about 400 wrong'uns!

Let's apply that to nurses,social workers, doctors etc too then ?

[Turk Thrust]

1 hour ago, Rampage said:

It is raining puns but every cloud has a silver lining. We must remain hail and hearty about our present situation.

Rampage. I’d like to think that you deliberately spelt “hale” as “hail” to fit in with the pun of clouds, rain etc. You did didn’t you?

[Mr. P]

The only thing missing from that investigation was Matt Allwright chasing Samuelson across a car park into a crappy transit van, asking him why he’s full of poo! 

[kevinhectoring]

On 10/08/2021 at 14:09, Ghost of Clough said:

Mel's P&S loophole

didn’t quite understand that. He seemed to be saying that if an unconnected person writes off loans to the club, that pumps up the numbers for FFP purposes? Was that it? But isn’t the FFP calculation driven by EBIT and surely a loan written off would not go through the p/l.  Or am I being thick ?

[Ghost of Clough]

41 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

didn’t quite understand that. He seemed to be saying that if an unconnected person writes off loans to the club, that pumps up the numbers for FFP purposes? Was that it? But isn’t the FFP calculation driven by EBIT and surely a loan written off would not go through the p/l.  Or am I being thick ?

That'll be why it's called a loophole. Keeps Mr Pop busy I suppose

[Day]

Watched this earlier, having read this topic I feared that would be more focused on us, however it appeared to be more about Samuelson, the Mr fixit of football thankfully.

Whilst Mel suggested an idea which “went against the spirit of FFP” according to Karen Maguire, it was to leave us in the best position to move forward remaining as a minority shareholder to give us headroom to invest in the team.

This is football, if this has shocked anyone you must live under a rock. You only have to look at PSG signing Messi on top of what they have to realise the spirit of FFP isn’t something that is universally adhered to.

Let’s be honest for a minute, FFP/P&S is a joke anyway, with EPPP, parachute payments, then you look at Bielik, he’s been injured most of the time he’s been here, can’t even play him yet his transfer fee and wages still count towards that. We can chuck George Thorne into the mix here as well.

If you’re on the limit, how’s that fair? It’s not. The rules I do believe were with the best intentions, however they are too restrictive for clubs with an ounce of ambition.

The game is littered with agents and brokers, it hasn’t been a “clean” game for a number of years now, all looking to get their slice of the pie doing whatever is needed to get signatures on paper.

Samuelson did not come out of it well at all, sales of Villa and Reading to front men disguising where the money had come from.

Interesting that the end statements from all involved all looked to distance themselves from him.

Saying all that, don’t be surprised to see him mentioned in future take overs with other clubs, unless he finds a front man for himself.

Whilst he’s been exposed, comes across as an intelligent man that knows how to find a way, that will be invaluable to some that require his services.

[Rev]

I agree @David, nothing at all to batter Mel about on that documentary. 

Didn't stop Maguire half heartedly attempting to insinuate such a viewpoint though.

[Day]

1 minute ago, Rev said:

I agree @David, nothing at all to batter Mel about on that documentary. 

Didn't stop Maguire half heartedly attempting to insinuate such a viewpoint though.

I liked his, something along the lines of that would be up to the EFL to investigate...

Not out to discredit his knowledge, I'm sure he has more of an understanding than I will ever know, however he is starting to come across as a bit clickbaity almost, these things get him on radio stations, TV,  podcasts and in turn sell books.

He's doing what he needs to do to stay relevant to further his own career, I can't knock him for that even if it does feel like he has us in his crosshairs. Let's not forget he reported us to the EFL long before Gibson got involved.

[Rev]

1 minute ago, David said:

I liked his, something along the lines of that would be up to the EFL to investigate...

Not out to discredit his knowledge, I'm sure he has more of an understanding than I will ever know, however he is starting to come across as a bit clickbaity almost, these things get him on radio stations, TV,  podcasts and in turn sell books.

He's doing what he needs to do to stay relevant to further his own career, I can't knock him for that even if it does feel like he has us in his crosshairs. Let's not forget he reported us to the EFL long before Gibson got involved.

Yeah, we've got Boro at home next.

I've got an idea to make up posters of Steve Gibson, as Pubic Enemy No 1*, and distribute them amongst the crowd.

Unfortunately I've neither the drive nor the talent to make such a thing happen, but the ideas out there if someone else fancies it!

*Not a misprint, just a reflection on his Barnet.

 

[kevinhectoring]

6 hours ago, David said:

 

Whilst Mel suggested an idea which “went against the spirit of FFP” according to Karen Maguire, it was to leave us in the best position to move forward remaining as a minority shareholder to give us headroom to invest in the team.

......................

Samuelson did not come out of it well at all, sales of Villa and Reading to front men disguising where the money had come from.

........................

Whilst [Samuelson has ]been exposed, he comes across as an intelligent man that knows how to find a way, that will be invaluable to some that require his services.

The programme sheds a lot of light on the BZI and Alonso deals and suggests Samuelson duped a naive Mel. It supports the theories that

- BZI was not the principal but there was a Mr Big in the shadows who backed out

- Alonso was funded by a shady Asian businessman and was a front. 
 

The Alonso deal would have been a disaster (what was Mel thinking of?) and there’s no telling whether the BZI one would have taken us to the top or to rock bottom. Or both in that order. 
 

Samuelson is completely discredited. He’s in his 70s I think and after this expose it’d be incredible if he could get anywhere near a deal involving the EFl  

As for Mel’s FFP loophole,  agree with what you say. But given the problems he has since had with the EFL, surely he’d now think twice. And I don’t think anyone reputable would buy the club relying on that loophole.  
 

I actually don’t understand how the loophole works so if anyone can explain that, please do.

 

Edited August 12, 2021 by kevinhectoring

[Crewton]

Re: the "loophole" : often when a club is sold to a new owner, the old owner will write-off part or all of any loans they've made to the club as part of the deal. Both the Doughty family and Fawaz did this at Forest, and the new owners were able to set this against losses in the year of the transaction. I believe these write-offs were allowed to be treated as "revenue" in the FFP calculations as well as in the statutory accounts (though I don't know why this is allowed).

I think, by writing off smaller tranches over a number of seasons, the idea is that the FFP benefit is spread more beneficially and less noticeably - it doesn't set as many hares running. I think as a minority shareholder, again the origin of the loans becomes less transparent. 

I'd be interested to hear what any accountants here think about it. 

[Ghost of Clough]

If my understanding is correct... cancelling loans from a majority shareholder isn't allowed to count towards P&S. However, if loans from another party (even a minority shareholder) are cancelled it can be included.

[MackworthRamIsGod]

2 hours ago, kevinhectoring said:

The programme sheds a lot of light on the BZI and Alonso deals and suggests Samuelson duped a naive Mel. It supports the theories that

- BZI was not the principal but there was a Mr Big in the shadows who backed out

- Alonso was funded by a shady Asian businessman and was a front. 
 

The Alonso deal would have been a disaster (what was Mel thinking of?) and there’s no telling whether the BZI one would have taken us to the top or to rock bottom. Or both in that order. 
 

Samuelson is completely discredited. He’s in his 70s I think and after this expose it’d be incredible if he could get anywhere near a deal involving the EFl  

As for Mel’s FFP loophole,  agree with what you say. But given the problems he has since had with the EFL, surely he’d now think twice. And I don’t think anyone reputable would buy the club relying on that loophole.  
 

I actually don’t understand how the loophole works so if anyone can explain that, please do.

 

BZI werent the principle buyers, they were a broker, the main buyer was a construction firm based in Dubai. They pulled out last minute and the delay was down to BZI trying to find someone else dumb enough to buy us.

[i-Ram]

10 hours ago, Rev said:

I agree @David, nothing at all to batter Mel about on that documentary. 

Didn't stop Maguire half heartedly attempting to insinuate such a viewpoint though.

Not sure I would agree, although I don’t want to ‘batter’ Morris just seen him gone.

The bigger picture is being lost here. Two years ago Mel Morris was very keen to get into the sale of the club in a deal being brokered by Samuelson. The programme shows Morris entering into some pretty detailed negotiations with Samuelson and a third party representative of an unknown Mr X. The programme, the way it was presented, seemed to suggest that all Morris would have known about Mr X was that he was Hong Kong Chinese (perhaps with a Cypriot passport ?) and with shed loads of money. Whether that is all that Morris knew about Mr X is pure speculation. He could have been being completely duped.

What is less speculation is that there must have been a very strong whiff about Samuelson at that time. I don’t really follow other football clubs news too much, but I do know that at the time (2019) when Morris was speaking to the representatives of Mr X there were many troubling stories circulating about the financial and shareholder troubles of both Reading and Aston Villa. Anton Zingarevich had already been bombed out of Reading leaving them in a huge mess (2014). He didn’t have any of the monies he said he had when he bought the club. Tony Xia’s ownership of Aston Villa in 2018 was regular back page news for non-payment of debts, and he was bombed out in 2019. He couldn’t get his money out of China supposedly, not that it was ever proved he had any. So the two high profile deals that Samuelson was clearly very proud of involved two individuals with a lump sum of money (somebody else’s money perhaps?) but not much behind that to support their capabilities of owning and running a football club. Now for football fans we just get the tittle tattle off the back pages, but in football circles one might imagine that a lot more about Samuelson and his dealings would have been known (particularly by the EFL). 

Morris has often been quoted as saying he wants to sell the club on to the right kind of people. I would suggest he just wants to sell and get back as much as he can. The fact that Samuelson appears to have been involved in the BZI deal as well, some 12 months later on from Mr X, and the well documented issues that were discussed on here, suggests again that the sale might have been more important than the person. I won’t bore you with my thoughts on the Erik Alonso saga. Total fantasist that bloke.

So as a long time supporter of the Rams, I think the current situation at the Club is of huge concern, and based on the programme contents, and the information that filtered out on the subsequent failed deals with BZI and Alonso, I think I have good reason to worry about who might get their hands on our great club in the months to come.

[Rev]

Fair points, well made @i-Ram.

[DarkFruitsRam7]

18 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

Not sure I would agree, although I don’t want to ‘batter’ Morris just seen him gone.

The bigger picture is being lost here. Two years ago Mel Morris was very keen to get into the sale of the club in a deal being brokered by Samuelson. The programme shows Morris entering into some pretty detailed negotiations with Samuelson and a third party representative of an unknown Mr X. The programme, the way it was presented, seemed to suggest that all Morris would have known about Mr X was that he was Hong Kong Chinese (perhaps with a Cypriot passport ?) and with shed loads of money. Whether that is all that Morris knew about Mr X is pure speculation. He could have been being completely duped.

What is less speculation is that there must have been a very strong whiff about Samuelson at that time. I don’t really follow other football clubs news too much, but I do know that at the time (2019) when Morris was speaking to the representatives of Mr X there were many troubling stories circulating about the financial and shareholder troubles of both Reading and Aston Villa. Anton Zingarevich had already been bombed out of Reading leaving them in a huge mess (2014). He didn’t have any of the monies he said he had when he bought the club. Tony Xia’s ownership of Aston Villa in 2018 was regular back page news for non-payment of debts, and he was bombed out in 2019. He couldn’t get his money out of China supposedly, not that it was ever proved he had any. So the two high profile deals that Samuelson was clearly very proud of involved two individuals with a lump sum of money (somebody else’s money perhaps?) but not much behind that to support their capabilities of owning and running a football club. Now for football fans we just get the tittle tattle off the back pages, but in football circles one might imagine that a lot more about Samuelson and his dealings would have been known (particularly by the EFL). 

Morris has often been quoted as saying he wants to sell the club on to the right kind of people. I would suggest he just wants to sell and get back as much as he can. The fact that Samuelson appears to have been involved in the BZI deal as well, some 12 months later on from Mr X, and the well documented issues that were discussed on here, suggests again that the sale might have been more important than the person. I won’t bore you with my thoughts on the Erik Alonso saga. Total fantasist that bloke.

So as a long time supporter of the Rams, I think the current situation at the Club is of huge concern, and based on the programme contents, and the information that filtered out on the subsequent failed deals with BZI and Alonso, I think I have good reason to worry about who might get their hands on our great club in the months to come.

Agreed.

This programme, and the fact that anyone with half a brain cell could see Alonso was a chancer, suggests he doesn’t really care who he sells to.

Edited August 12, 2021 by DarkFruitsRam7