Kaide Gordon - signed for Liverpool

[Ghost of Clough]

52 minutes ago, Rev said:

Fact is, if being Cat 1 doesn't protect us from losing talent cheaply, why do we bother?

Cat 1 status is essentially an indicator of the quality of coaching... theoretically, the more you spend, the betting the coaching. The added benefit is playing against the best youth sides in the country.

Higher quality players coming through and developing at a faster rate.

[Rev]

7 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Cat 1 status is essentially an indicator of the quality of coaching... theoretically, the more you spend, the betting the coaching. The added benefit is playing against the best youth sides in the country.

Higher quality players coming through and developing at a faster rate.

All understood, but it doesn't stop lower rated academies bringing through such players and selling them on for big fees.

[Footymum2017]

28 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Cat 1 status is essentially an indicator of the quality of coaching... theoretically, the more you spend, the betting the coaching. The added benefit is playing against the best youth sides in the country.

Higher quality players coming through and developing at a faster rate.

It relates to the facilities and the different staff that have to be employed, which adds to the cost of running the academy which means a bigger contribution from the premier league/efl. It doesn’t necessarily mean that the coaches are better, most coaches earn roughly the same unless they’re at one of the big PL club academies.

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

20 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Cat 1 status is essentially an indicator of the quality of coaching... theoretically, the more you spend, the betting the coaching. The added benefit is playing against the best youth sides in the country.

Higher quality players coming through and developing at a faster rate.

No real benefit though if the Liverpool's of this world see them perform well and sign them for tuppence.  

We don't necessarily need to be Category 1 to bring through good young players.  Carsley, Sturridge, Kozluck, Murray, Riggott, Camp, Tudgay, Huddlestone, Barnes, Hendrick, Hughes, Addison.  Sure theres more . All brought through prior to such an academy.  Your right about the coaching of course, but quality of coach comes with a salary rather than facility. Give them the right cash they'll train them on Markeaton park. Have the right coaches and a path to the first team, you still get the quality of youngster without huge outlay on academy costs and the vultures having a meal chucked in front of them, rather than circling to find it.  Better chance of not being spotted.

Sad thing is, losing young players is a big loss to us, it's no loss to a premier league club.  If they don't make it there, they get there cash back in a couple of loan fees. As there not playing for them or selling we don't even get the add ons.  

[SparxTheRam]

Until a youth player signs a pro contract... As Bellingham did.... We are beholden to the rules of the EPPP I believe....

This is a set fee as a minimum but if we have negotiated a guaranteed 1m then we have done well.....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_Player_Performance_Plan

[Carnero]

8 hours ago, SparxTheRam said:

Until a youth player signs a pro contract... As Bellingham did.... We are beholden to the rules of the EPPP I believe....

This is a set fee as a minimum but if we have negotiated a guaranteed 1m then we have done well.....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_Player_Performance_Plan

If we are only due a set fee under EPPP then why would Liverpool agree to pay a higher fee plus add-ons?

[Ambitious]

2 minutes ago, Carnero said:

If we are only due a set fee under EPPP then why would Liverpool agree to pay a higher fee plus add-ons?

I believe the set fee is only for clubs who are in a higher tier, i.e. if a tier 1 club wanted a player from a tier 2 academy then they would have to pay the set fee. Gordan would likely go to a tribunal, therefore I believe the fee is effectively a settlement. 

[Carnero]

12 minutes ago, Ambitious said:

I believe the set fee is only for clubs who are in a higher tier, i.e. if a tier 1 club wanted a player from a tier 2 academy then they would have to pay the set fee. Gordan would likely go to a tribunal, therefore I believe the fee is effectively a settlement. 

That makes sense, cheers!

[BIllyD]

15 hours ago, Boycie said:

Really?
Delap looks good in the Man City stiffs, and he’s played a few first team cup games, and scored. But, there’s no set rule that 16 year olds will kick on and perform at a higher level.  The league’s been littered with wonder kids over the years.

Lets not forget where we are in the pecking list.

1 million for unproven talent isn’t to be sniffed at.  Don’t forget we bought many a player who got injured and were never the same again. Let alone money going to their heads.

Im not saying these lads are money mad, but let’s not forget we are still a small fish in the big pond.

 

Its not 1 million profit though is it. We have spent so much money on our academy and spent a lot of time and effort on this kid alone, let alone the cash side. What's the point of an academy if your attitude is, well he might not make it anyway let's sell him at the first opportunity.

 

 

[rammieib]

2 minutes ago, BIllyD said:

Its not 1 million profit though is it. We have spent so much money on our academy and spent a lot of time and effort on this kid alone, let alone the cash side. What's the point of an academy if your attitude is, well he might not make it anyway let's sell him at the first opportunity.

 

 

And if he doesn't actually want to sign pro terms with us, what other option do we have?

I don't think £1 Million is bad business especially if there are plenty of additional fees linked.

How often do these star players at this age actually go on and become stars. 1 in 50 chance?

Go back ten years and find an England Under 21 team. I would guess most are not longer playing Prem Football.

Go back ten years and find an England Under 16 team and see how many are are playing Prem football? I bet none are.

 

In fact - here you go - this is from 2013 England under 16's - how many have become stars? I think 3 are in the Premiership today and none of them have played for England. Three quarters of them I don't even know.

Goalkeepers

Sam Howes   West Ham United U2110/11/1997

Ryan Sandford   21/02/1999

Lewis Ward   Reading FC05/03/1997
 

Defender

Tosin Adarabioyo   Manchester City24/09/1997

Tom Brewitt   11/02/1997

Kyle Cameron   Newcastle United15/01/1997

Archie Edwards   10/07/1997

Mandela Egbo   Crystal Palace17/08/1997

Tafari Moore   Arsenal FC05/07/1997

Reece Oxford   West Ham United16/12/1998

Ro-Shaun Williams   03/09/1998

James Yates   03/04/1998

 

Midfielder

Isaac Christie-Davies   Chelsea FC18/10/1997

Lewis Cook   Leeds United (R)03/02/1997

Tom Davies   Everton FC30/06/1998

Ryan Ledson   Everton FC U2119/08/1997

Max Lowe   Derby County11/05/1997

William Patching   18/10/1998

Adam Phillips   15/01/1998

Patrick Roberts   Fulham FC05/02/1997
 

Forward

Adam Armstrong   Newcastle United U2110/02/1997

Ben Cullen   24/09/1989

Kaylen Hinds   Arsenal FC28/01/1998

Demetri Mitchell   Manchester United11/01/1997

Layton Ndukwu   07/09/1998

Joshua Onomah   Tottenham Hotspur U2127/04/1997

Giorgio Rasulo   Milton Keynes Dons23/01/1997

Dominic Solanke   Chelsea FC U2114/09/1997

Charlie Wakefield   Chelsea FC10/04/1998

[Rab a dab doo]

Sometimes just sometimes @a bird in the hand is worth something in the bush" 

[BIllyD]

32 minutes ago, rammieib said:

And if he doesn't actually want to sign pro terms with us, what other option do we have?

I don't think £1 Million is bad business especially if there are plenty of additional fees linked.

How often do these star players at this age actually go on and become stars. 1 in 50 chance?

Go back ten years and find an England Under 21 team. I would guess most are not longer playing Prem Football.

Go back ten years and find an England Under 16 team and see how many are are playing Prem football? I bet none are.

 

In fact - here you go - this is from 2013 England under 16's - how many have become stars? I think 3 are in the Premiership today and none of them have played for England. Three quarters of them I don't even know.

Goalkeepers

Sam Howes   West Ham United U2110/11/1997

Ryan Sandford   21/02/1999

Lewis Ward   Reading FC05/03/1997
 

Defender

Tosin Adarabioyo   Manchester City24/09/1997

Tom Brewitt   11/02/1997

Kyle Cameron   Newcastle United15/01/1997

Archie Edwards   10/07/1997

Mandela Egbo   Crystal Palace17/08/1997

Tafari Moore   Arsenal FC05/07/1997

Reece Oxford   West Ham United16/12/1998

Ro-Shaun Williams   03/09/1998

James Yates   03/04/1998

 

Midfielder

Isaac Christie-Davies   Chelsea FC18/10/1997

Lewis Cook   Leeds United (R)03/02/1997

Tom Davies   Everton FC30/06/1998

Ryan Ledson   Everton FC U2119/08/1997

Max Lowe   Derby County11/05/1997

William Patching   18/10/1998

Adam Phillips   15/01/1998

Patrick Roberts   Fulham FC05/02/1997
 

Forward

Adam Armstrong   Newcastle United U2110/02/1997

Ben Cullen   24/09/1989

Kaylen Hinds   Arsenal FC28/01/1998

Demetri Mitchell   Manchester United11/01/1997

Layton Ndukwu   07/09/1998

Joshua Onomah   Tottenham Hotspur U2127/04/1997

Giorgio Rasulo   Milton Keynes Dons23/01/1997

Dominic Solanke   Chelsea FC U2114/09/1997

Charlie Wakefield   Chelsea FC10/04/1998

Has it been said then that he doesn't want to sign pro terms, missed that one, the only bits I have really seen, which one again I take with a punch of salt, is that we are selling him to pay for wages of other players ?

Maybe I also missed the bit where we are in the PL, let alone discussing playing for England? So I'm not sure the relevance of the above, we are already talking about JK for example being touted to go for several million, he is 3 years older. What does 1m get you these days in terms of a replacement players good enough to play in the championship ?

Additional fees fair enough, but once again go back to my original comment which is around 1m being an amount not to be sniffed at, which is what I was discussing, not really if he is good enough to play for England or in the PL.

 

[rammieib]

54 minutes ago, BIllyD said:

Has it been said then that he doesn't want to sign pro terms, missed that one, the only bits I have really seen, which one again I take with a punch of salt, is that we are selling him to pay for wages of other players ?

Maybe I also missed the bit where we are in the PL, let alone discussing playing for England? So I'm not sure the relevance of the above, we are already talking about JK for example being touted to go for several million, he is 3 years older. What does 1m get you these days in terms of a replacement players good enough to play in the championship ?

Additional fees fair enough, but once again go back to my original comment which is around 1m being an amount not to be sniffed at, which is what I was discussing, not really if he is good enough to play for England or in the PL.

 

People on the thread was saying £1 Million is not sufficient.

I think it is because statistically speaking, he's unlikely to actually ever make the grade and become a player of value. 

We're also a selling club and we're in a buyers market right now. Anyone who has money to spend, fair play to them, because you'll get some cracking deals at the moment.

[Wistaston Ram]

Can someone who watches the U18s, tell me a little about Kaide Gordon? i.e. his position, strengths, weaknesses etc.  I know very little about the lad and would welcome other people's views who have watched him play.

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

1 hour ago, BIllyD said:

Its not 1 million profit though is it. We have spent so much money on our academy and spent a lot of time and effort on this kid alone, let alone the cash side. What's the point of an academy if your attitude is, well he might not make it anyway let's sell him at the first opportunity.

 

 

I thought he didn't want to sign an offered contract? If that's true we have done well to sell for £1m. Cash flow dictates we need to sell rather than sit and invest. Facts of life with Covid, no fans and lots of bills. We are not a PL club and we have no parachute payments.

[Philmycock]

Some Man U plastic "fans" will be upset

[dcfcreece1601]

1 minute ago, Philmycock said:

Some Man U plastic "fans" will be upset

How sad are these people ? bed bugs the lot of them ? 

[BIllyD]

12 minutes ago, rammieib said:

People on the thread was saying £1 Million is not sufficient.

I think it is because statistically speaking, he's unlikely to actually ever make the grade and become a player of value. 

We're also a selling club and we're in a buyers market right now. Anyone who has money to spend, fair play to them, because you'll get some cracking deals at the moment.

Statistically speaking on a grade that is going to represent England and PL ? Based on the number of players that have gone to leave out academy for that amount, how many have for example gone on to make an appearance for a PL club ? 

Is 1m sufficient ? Based on what level he is at today, based upon how much money we have put into the academy and how much time and effort we have put into the player ? There is a reason why several PL clubs are tracking him and willing to pay that amount is based upon his potential, same as Sterling for example. 
 

For me it's not about statistics, if that was the case why have an academy, why plough several million per year into it ?
 

Yes we are a selling club, still doesn't mean 1m is a good deal for us.

[RoyMac5]

Just now, BIllyD said:

Yes we are a selling club, still doesn't mean £1m is a good deal for us.

How could we get more?

[BIllyD]

15 minutes ago, The Scarlet Pimpernel said:

I thought he didn't want to sign an offered contract? If that's true we have done well to sell for £1m. Cash flow dictates we need to sell rather than sit and invest. Facts of life with Covid, no fans and lots of bills. We are not a PL club and we have no parachute payments.

I think that was an ITK, that was later retracted as being badly worded.

Even if that was the case, yes 1m for a player that doesn't want to sign is an ok deal in those circumstances because we can do no more. 1m though for a player we are selling to balance the books IMO is not even if I understand that the current position requires it.