Ghost of Clough Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 52 minutes ago, Rev said: Fact is, if being Cat 1 doesn't protect us from losing talent cheaply, why do we bother? Cat 1 status is essentially an indicator of the quality of coaching... theoretically, the more you spend, the betting the coaching. The added benefit is playing against the best youth sides in the country. Higher quality players coming through and developing at a faster rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 7 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said: Cat 1 status is essentially an indicator of the quality of coaching... theoretically, the more you spend, the betting the coaching. The added benefit is playing against the best youth sides in the country. Higher quality players coming through and developing at a faster rate. All understood, but it doesn't stop lower rated academies bringing through such players and selling them on for big fees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footymum2017 Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 28 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said: Cat 1 status is essentially an indicator of the quality of coaching... theoretically, the more you spend, the betting the coaching. The added benefit is playing against the best youth sides in the country. Higher quality players coming through and developing at a faster rate. It relates to the facilities and the different staff that have to be employed, which adds to the cost of running the academy which means a bigger contribution from the premier league/efl. It doesn’t necessarily mean that the coaches are better, most coaches earn roughly the same unless they’re at one of the big PL club academies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gee SCREAMER !! Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 20 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said: Cat 1 status is essentially an indicator of the quality of coaching... theoretically, the more you spend, the betting the coaching. The added benefit is playing against the best youth sides in the country. Higher quality players coming through and developing at a faster rate. No real benefit though if the Liverpool's of this world see them perform well and sign them for tuppence. We don't necessarily need to be Category 1 to bring through good young players. Carsley, Sturridge, Kozluck, Murray, Riggott, Camp, Tudgay, Huddlestone, Barnes, Hendrick, Hughes, Addison. Sure theres more . All brought through prior to such an academy. Your right about the coaching of course, but quality of coach comes with a salary rather than facility. Give them the right cash they'll train them on Markeaton park. Have the right coaches and a path to the first team, you still get the quality of youngster without huge outlay on academy costs and the vultures having a meal chucked in front of them, rather than circling to find it. Better chance of not being spotted. Sad thing is, losing young players is a big loss to us, it's no loss to a premier league club. If they don't make it there, they get there cash back in a couple of loan fees. As there not playing for them or selling we don't even get the add ons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparxTheRam Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 Until a youth player signs a pro contract... As Bellingham did.... We are beholden to the rules of the EPPP I believe.... This is a set fee as a minimum but if we have negotiated a guaranteed 1m then we have done well..... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_Player_Performance_Plan The Scarlet Pimpernel 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnero Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 8 hours ago, SparxTheRam said: Until a youth player signs a pro contract... As Bellingham did.... We are beholden to the rules of the EPPP I believe.... This is a set fee as a minimum but if we have negotiated a guaranteed 1m then we have done well..... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_Player_Performance_Plan If we are only due a set fee under EPPP then why would Liverpool agree to pay a higher fee plus add-ons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ambitious Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 2 minutes ago, Carnero said: If we are only due a set fee under EPPP then why would Liverpool agree to pay a higher fee plus add-ons? I believe the set fee is only for clubs who are in a higher tier, i.e. if a tier 1 club wanted a player from a tier 2 academy then they would have to pay the set fee. Gordan would likely go to a tribunal, therefore I believe the fee is effectively a settlement. SparxTheRam and Carnero 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnero Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 12 minutes ago, Ambitious said: I believe the set fee is only for clubs who are in a higher tier, i.e. if a tier 1 club wanted a player from a tier 2 academy then they would have to pay the set fee. Gordan would likely go to a tribunal, therefore I believe the fee is effectively a settlement. That makes sense, cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIllyD Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 15 hours ago, Boycie said: Really? Delap looks good in the Man City stiffs, and he’s played a few first team cup games, and scored. But, there’s no set rule that 16 year olds will kick on and perform at a higher level. The league’s been littered with wonder kids over the years. Lets not forget where we are in the pecking list. 1 million for unproven talent isn’t to be sniffed at. Don’t forget we bought many a player who got injured and were never the same again. Let alone money going to their heads. Im not saying these lads are money mad, but let’s not forget we are still a small fish in the big pond. Its not 1 million profit though is it. We have spent so much money on our academy and spent a lot of time and effort on this kid alone, let alone the cash side. What's the point of an academy if your attitude is, well he might not make it anyway let's sell him at the first opportunity. sheeponacid and Makedoh 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rammieib Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 2 minutes ago, BIllyD said: Its not 1 million profit though is it. We have spent so much money on our academy and spent a lot of time and effort on this kid alone, let alone the cash side. What's the point of an academy if your attitude is, well he might not make it anyway let's sell him at the first opportunity. And if he doesn't actually want to sign pro terms with us, what other option do we have? I don't think £1 Million is bad business especially if there are plenty of additional fees linked. How often do these star players at this age actually go on and become stars. 1 in 50 chance? Go back ten years and find an England Under 21 team. I would guess most are not longer playing Prem Football. Go back ten years and find an England Under 16 team and see how many are are playing Prem football? I bet none are. In fact - here you go - this is from 2013 England under 16's - how many have become stars? I think 3 are in the Premiership today and none of them have played for England. Three quarters of them I don't even know. Goalkeepers Sam Howes West Ham United U2110/11/1997 Ryan Sandford 21/02/1999 Lewis Ward Reading FC05/03/1997 Defender Tosin Adarabioyo Manchester City24/09/1997 Tom Brewitt 11/02/1997 Kyle Cameron Newcastle United15/01/1997 Archie Edwards 10/07/1997 Mandela Egbo Crystal Palace17/08/1997 Tafari Moore Arsenal FC05/07/1997 Reece Oxford West Ham United16/12/1998 Ro-Shaun Williams 03/09/1998 James Yates 03/04/1998 Midfielder Isaac Christie-Davies Chelsea FC18/10/1997 Lewis Cook Leeds United (R)03/02/1997 Tom Davies Everton FC30/06/1998 Ryan Ledson Everton FC U2119/08/1997 Max Lowe Derby County11/05/1997 William Patching 18/10/1998 Adam Phillips 15/01/1998 Patrick Roberts Fulham FC05/02/1997 Forward Adam Armstrong Newcastle United U2110/02/1997 Ben Cullen 24/09/1989 Kaylen Hinds Arsenal FC28/01/1998 Demetri Mitchell Manchester United11/01/1997 Layton Ndukwu 07/09/1998 Joshua Onomah Tottenham Hotspur U2127/04/1997 Giorgio Rasulo Milton Keynes Dons23/01/1997 Dominic Solanke Chelsea FC U2114/09/1997 Charlie Wakefield Chelsea FC10/04/1998 Carnero, RoyMac5, DCFC1388 and 1 other 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rab a dab doo Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 Sometimes just sometimes @a bird in the hand is worth something in the bush" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIllyD Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 32 minutes ago, rammieib said: And if he doesn't actually want to sign pro terms with us, what other option do we have? I don't think £1 Million is bad business especially if there are plenty of additional fees linked. How often do these star players at this age actually go on and become stars. 1 in 50 chance? Go back ten years and find an England Under 21 team. I would guess most are not longer playing Prem Football. Go back ten years and find an England Under 16 team and see how many are are playing Prem football? I bet none are. In fact - here you go - this is from 2013 England under 16's - how many have become stars? I think 3 are in the Premiership today and none of them have played for England. Three quarters of them I don't even know. Goalkeepers Sam Howes West Ham United U2110/11/1997 Ryan Sandford 21/02/1999 Lewis Ward Reading FC05/03/1997 Defender Tosin Adarabioyo Manchester City24/09/1997 Tom Brewitt 11/02/1997 Kyle Cameron Newcastle United15/01/1997 Archie Edwards 10/07/1997 Mandela Egbo Crystal Palace17/08/1997 Tafari Moore Arsenal FC05/07/1997 Reece Oxford West Ham United16/12/1998 Ro-Shaun Williams 03/09/1998 James Yates 03/04/1998 Midfielder Isaac Christie-Davies Chelsea FC18/10/1997 Lewis Cook Leeds United (R)03/02/1997 Tom Davies Everton FC30/06/1998 Ryan Ledson Everton FC U2119/08/1997 Max Lowe Derby County11/05/1997 William Patching 18/10/1998 Adam Phillips 15/01/1998 Patrick Roberts Fulham FC05/02/1997 Forward Adam Armstrong Newcastle United U2110/02/1997 Ben Cullen 24/09/1989 Kaylen Hinds Arsenal FC28/01/1998 Demetri Mitchell Manchester United11/01/1997 Layton Ndukwu 07/09/1998 Joshua Onomah Tottenham Hotspur U2127/04/1997 Giorgio Rasulo Milton Keynes Dons23/01/1997 Dominic Solanke Chelsea FC U2114/09/1997 Charlie Wakefield Chelsea FC10/04/1998 Has it been said then that he doesn't want to sign pro terms, missed that one, the only bits I have really seen, which one again I take with a punch of salt, is that we are selling him to pay for wages of other players ? Maybe I also missed the bit where we are in the PL, let alone discussing playing for England? So I'm not sure the relevance of the above, we are already talking about JK for example being touted to go for several million, he is 3 years older. What does 1m get you these days in terms of a replacement players good enough to play in the championship ? Additional fees fair enough, but once again go back to my original comment which is around 1m being an amount not to be sniffed at, which is what I was discussing, not really if he is good enough to play for England or in the PL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rammieib Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 54 minutes ago, BIllyD said: Has it been said then that he doesn't want to sign pro terms, missed that one, the only bits I have really seen, which one again I take with a punch of salt, is that we are selling him to pay for wages of other players ? Maybe I also missed the bit where we are in the PL, let alone discussing playing for England? So I'm not sure the relevance of the above, we are already talking about JK for example being touted to go for several million, he is 3 years older. What does 1m get you these days in terms of a replacement players good enough to play in the championship ? Additional fees fair enough, but once again go back to my original comment which is around 1m being an amount not to be sniffed at, which is what I was discussing, not really if he is good enough to play for England or in the PL. People on the thread was saying £1 Million is not sufficient. I think it is because statistically speaking, he's unlikely to actually ever make the grade and become a player of value. We're also a selling club and we're in a buyers market right now. Anyone who has money to spend, fair play to them, because you'll get some cracking deals at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wistaston Ram Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 Can someone who watches the U18s, tell me a little about Kaide Gordon? i.e. his position, strengths, weaknesses etc. I know very little about the lad and would welcome other people's views who have watched him play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scarlet Pimpernel Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 1 hour ago, BIllyD said: Its not 1 million profit though is it. We have spent so much money on our academy and spent a lot of time and effort on this kid alone, let alone the cash side. What's the point of an academy if your attitude is, well he might not make it anyway let's sell him at the first opportunity. I thought he didn't want to sign an offered contract? If that's true we have done well to sell for £1m. Cash flow dictates we need to sell rather than sit and invest. Facts of life with Covid, no fans and lots of bills. We are not a PL club and we have no parachute payments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philmycock Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 Some Man U plastic "fans" will be upset Bubbles 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcfcreece1601 Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 1 minute ago, Philmycock said: Some Man U plastic "fans" will be upset How sad are these people ? bed bugs the lot of them ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIllyD Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 12 minutes ago, rammieib said: People on the thread was saying £1 Million is not sufficient. I think it is because statistically speaking, he's unlikely to actually ever make the grade and become a player of value. We're also a selling club and we're in a buyers market right now. Anyone who has money to spend, fair play to them, because you'll get some cracking deals at the moment. Statistically speaking on a grade that is going to represent England and PL ? Based on the number of players that have gone to leave out academy for that amount, how many have for example gone on to make an appearance for a PL club ? Is 1m sufficient ? Based on what level he is at today, based upon how much money we have put into the academy and how much time and effort we have put into the player ? There is a reason why several PL clubs are tracking him and willing to pay that amount is based upon his potential, same as Sterling for example. For me it's not about statistics, if that was the case why have an academy, why plough several million per year into it ? Yes we are a selling club, still doesn't mean 1m is a good deal for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 Just now, BIllyD said: Yes we are a selling club, still doesn't mean £1m is a good deal for us. How could we get more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIllyD Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 15 minutes ago, The Scarlet Pimpernel said: I thought he didn't want to sign an offered contract? If that's true we have done well to sell for £1m. Cash flow dictates we need to sell rather than sit and invest. Facts of life with Covid, no fans and lots of bills. We are not a PL club and we have no parachute payments. I think that was an ITK, that was later retracted as being badly worded. Even if that was the case, yes 1m for a player that doesn't want to sign is an ok deal in those circumstances because we can do no more. 1m though for a player we are selling to balance the books IMO is not even if I understand that the current position requires it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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