NottsRammy Posted September 28, 2020 Share Posted September 28, 2020 19 minutes ago, StockholmRam said: The one who was closest to it was Steve Mac. But he was smart enough to take a few good values from Dutch football and add them into an English style understanding. It almost worked. If it wasnt for that pesky Zamora and his meddling team mates. If i remember right Steve Mac made sure as much as possible it was one touch football , it was fast and fluent .I think thats what everyones missing here . Cocu's style is take as many touches as you want but retain possession this gives the opposite team all the time in the world to challenge you . Cocus style does work and it looks sublime when it does . But to work you have to have players 2 levels above the other players in skill to pull it off .We dont have that luxury neither can we afford it . I still say one huge thing cocu is missing is a personality it does rub off onto the players he is passionless , its no use laying into players with some sort of mavis out of coronation st style rollocking . The players inside will just laugh but wont show it . Some managers bring a group mentality to teams and you really want to play for them . Has anyone wondered why Harry redknapp got players to play for him because having watched him loads on telly the bloke is as thick as a chock isnt he . But he does know how to set teams up and he has something about him call it charm, charisma , just down right approachable that makes you want to play your socks off for him . A certain Mr Clough had this as well . So did by all accounts the poison dwarf ( billy davis ) but he on other accounts upsets the people that matter running a club . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rammy03 Posted September 28, 2020 Share Posted September 28, 2020 2 hours ago, StockholmRam said: Cocu playing Dutch style at PSV worked great. In Turkey not so great. In the English championship not so great either. Its a familiar pattern. And to be honest the Dutch managers in English football have not done that great really through the years. Why can't he adapt then? The best managers get the best out of what they have. At times all this reminds me of Louie Van Gaal at Manchester United. They said the football was boring possession, no flair or excitement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rammy03 Posted September 28, 2020 Share Posted September 28, 2020 1 hour ago, NottsRammy said: Cocus style does work and it looks sublime when it does . But to work you have to have players 2 levels above the other players in skill to pull it off .We dont have that luxury neither can we afford it . We only see this one or two times a game though that's the problem. On Saturday we were actually quite impressive for the first five minutes, there were a couple of really good passing moves getting the ball forwards quickly. This is what we want to see on a consistent basis. As soon as the goal went in we just downed tools. It was really strange. I don't understand why. If cocu had lost the dressing room then surely we wouldn't have started the game as well as we did. The goal just seemed to knock everything out of us and we never recovered. But the fact that can even happen is seriously concerning though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted September 28, 2020 Share Posted September 28, 2020 1 hour ago, NottsRammy said: If i remember right Steve Mac made sure as much as possible it was one touch football , it was fast and fluent .I think thats what everyones missing here . Cocu's style is take as many touches as you want but retain possession this gives the opposite team all the time in the world to challenge you . Cocus style does work and it looks sublime when it does . But to work you have to have players 2 levels above the other players in skill to pull it off .We dont have that luxury neither can we afford it . I still say one huge thing cocu is missing is a personality it does rub off onto the players he is passionless , its no use laying into players with some sort of mavis out of coronation st style rollocking . The players inside will just laugh but wont show it . Some managers bring a group mentality to teams and you really want to play for them . Has anyone wondered why Harry redknapp got players to play for him because having watched him loads on telly the bloke is as thick as a chock isnt he . But he does know how to set teams up and he has something about him call it charm, charisma , just down right approachable that makes you want to play your socks off for him . A certain Mr Clough had this as well . So did by all accounts the poison dwarf ( billy davis ) but he on other accounts upsets the people that matter running a club . How can we play out from the back when the players in front of the defence are too static? Rooney only creates space for himself when he drops into the false LB position. Get Rooney watching Chris Martin videos so he can get back to playing at #9... and make him run laps around the field for 2 hours. Get Knight and Shinnie/Holmes either side of Bird and the defence will once again have options to pass to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk Thrust Posted September 28, 2020 Share Posted September 28, 2020 I like Cocu and think his style is good. But no manager is sacrosanct and if we are still playing this garbage in two months then surely something has to happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rammeister Posted September 28, 2020 Share Posted September 28, 2020 9 hours ago, AndyinLiverpool said: You can’t be serious I’m always serious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeicsRam Posted September 28, 2020 Share Posted September 28, 2020 We clearly need better signposting at the stadium. It seems like every manager since Nigel Clough has had difficulty finding them after a couple of losses. Maybe they move around the place after a defeat in an attempt to force the manager and players to think about their performance while they try and find them. It’s nonsense and won’t be long before the whole ‘I heard [Insert name of player] has slept with Cocu’s wife/daughter and that’s why there’s a rift’. Didn’t Marriott apparently have a thing with Christine Lampard two years ago? Wonder who it will be this time. On a separate note, shouldn’t we say that he has lost the changing room? How many times have you gone to the gym and referred to the place where the lockers are as the dressing room? He’s a football manager not a theatre director. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brammie Steve Posted September 28, 2020 Share Posted September 28, 2020 6 minutes ago, LeicsRam said: We clearly need better signposting at the stadium. It seems like every manager since Nigel Clough has had difficulty finding them after a couple of losses. Maybe they move around the place after a defeat in an attempt to force the manager and players to think about their performance while they try and find them. It’s nonsense and won’t be long before the whole ‘I heard [Insert name of player] has slept with Cocu’s wife/daughter and that’s why there’s a rift’. Didn’t Marriott apparently have a thing with Christine Lampard two years ago? Wonder who it will be this time. On a separate note, shouldn’t we say that he has lost the changing room? How many times have you gone to the gym and referred to the place where the lockers are as the dressing room? He’s a football manager not a theatre director. Lost your way in the gym and went in the wrong dressing room... Come on, sunshine, can't you come up with owt better than that? Cell number two sarge! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BondJovi Posted September 28, 2020 Share Posted September 28, 2020 1 hour ago, RammingStone66 said: I may get ripped apart for this but it feels like the team has had a mental issue for a long time. There were plenty of lazy individual performances and under Lampard and we also had the drinking and bad behaviour that many seemed to believe started under Lampard (possibly before him though). I know most of that squad has now left the club but there still seems to be this strange inability for players to accept any responsibility on the pitch. I wonder where this comes from, are the players confused by tactics or their individual instructions, or are they just scared to stand up and be a leader. Are they all scared of Rooney and his on pitch authority or is Cocu a tyrant behind the scenes? From what iv heard people saying, the players like Cocu and enjoy training. We seemed to have had a succession of mentally weak or unruly teams in the last few years and no manager seems to have fixed it. Lampard may have got closest but there was still roumers that allegedly the players knew he had spoken to Chelsea and it all kicked off. Has so many managers being sacked or leaving so often created a feeling of unease and not wanting to trust? It's obvious that cocu doesn't want this slow backpassing football and is waiting on certain players to get fit to truly see his vision through, he is unwilling to change to a more suitable tactics in the meantime though, that may be his undoing. But I'm unsure a new manager fixes the squads more mental issues. I agree with most of that. And to go further, I believe this attitude has come from the top, for far too long the players have had the say on the manager. I have heard it said that it is all very easy at Derby. What I do think though is that Cocu has been brought in to change this. I think the issues are understood. And I hope that we continue to back the manager. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted September 28, 2020 Author Share Posted September 28, 2020 11 minutes ago, BondJovi said: I agree with most of that. And to go further, I believe this attitude has come from the top, for far too long the players have had the say on the manager. I have heard it said that it is all very easy at Derby. What I do think though is that Cocu has been brought in to change this. I think the issues are understood. And I hope that we continue to back the manager. ? Err but it's different players and different managers! The only constant is Mel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RammingStone66 Posted September 28, 2020 Share Posted September 28, 2020 4 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: ? Err but it's different players and different managers! The only constant is Mel. True but it does seem some old players still have pull in our dressing room too. And your right that Mel is the constant, maybe this attitude comes from there it's hard to tell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BondJovi Posted September 28, 2020 Share Posted September 28, 2020 29 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: ? Err but it's different players and different managers! The only constant is Mel. My point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramarena Posted September 28, 2020 Share Posted September 28, 2020 9 hours ago, S8TY said: Yep he was agitated and was probably doing what we were all doing watching ....thinking...ffs press and was heard shouting ...just let them ducking walk through...close them down ....so...what more can he do than tell them what they’re not doing....some on here think he doesn’t have a clue but he does but it appears our players don’t listen ....the only problem I had yesterday was the weird team selection of leaving our best CB on the bench but he knows we didn’t close down and didn’t run and try hard enough ....what does he do next..?...you have to look at the players too....it’s always the managers fault and although he’s not totally blameless it wasn’t him letting BJ shoot without closing him down it wasn’t him who gave the ball away cheaply before they scored....if I was Cocu I’d leave most of that team out next game but he can’t because our squad is hardly overloaded with options at the moment ...I’m not making excuses for Cocu yesterday as I think he’s making mistakes but let’s get one thing clear ...some of these beloved heroes who pull on a rams shirt need to run through brick walls and close players down and earn the right to play ...when a few youngsters have a bit of off form we really do feel it ....Lawrence Bielik Waggy new LB and a decent striker and we have more options ....I’d also tell Mel that only one or two of the academy lads are going to be regulars or have a realistic chance of playing when all are fit ...that’s Bird and maybe Sibley that’s it....Knight and Buchanan and maybe Whittaker’s time will come but not yet we cannot have too many in at the same time but it will happen but they’re not ready yet ...also something has happened with Rooney and Cocu imo because he’s not half as interested as he was......also one last thing ....not excuses but ...having no fans is affecting things ...Rooney I think plays off the crowd and I think us fans also influence things ...it’s like a training session at times and it’s the same for both sides I know but it is affecting games....home crowds especially help ...I don’t think some would’ve got away with a lack of effort yesterday in closing down with a packed PP ...lets hope the players respond but it’s not looking good ...by all means get rid of a manager if he’s clueless but for players to not listen and do what a manger wants is criminal ....just my thoughts Indeed the players lack of effort and intelligence annoyed me as much as the result! But there’s the rub.......if the players aren’t listening then we’ve got serious problems. If things deteriorate further then Cocu wont have long left, the players have the power here we can’t get rid of half the squad, it’s easier and cheaper to replace the manager an hope for a change. this is why I think this is a key moment in his time here. Turn it around and we’ll grow stronger, struggle on and he’s on borrowed time. Personally I hope he overcomes this as I like him and want him and our club to succeed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StockholmRam Posted September 28, 2020 Share Posted September 28, 2020 1 hour ago, Rammy03 said: Why can't he adapt then? The best managers get the best out of what they have. At times all this reminds me of Louie Van Gaal at Manchester United. They said the football was boring possession, no flair or excitement. Well, from what I have seen in my 55 years, the Dutch all play to the same system which has hybrids of it going on. Ive got a few mates from that neck of the woods who tell me they start out with the system at schools and in junior levels. Even on half size pitches. So if thats right, then by the time a player is good enough to get into Ajax and PSV teams then its second nature to them and the move into first team football is smooth. Weird then, that we have gone and signed the only Dutch player in history who looks like he learned his football in Derby Taverners league 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted September 28, 2020 Share Posted September 28, 2020 1 hour ago, Rammy03 said: As soon as the goal went in we just downed tools. It was really strange. I don't understand why. If cocu had lost the dressing room then surely we wouldn't have started the game as well as we did. The goal just seemed to knock everything out of us and we never recovered. But the fact that can even happen is seriously concerning though. I think we're missing leadership on the pitch - Not in the dressing/changing room We started the game well, doing what the manager seems to want from the side - Keep the ball when the opposition are organised and when you see a gap exploit it as fast as possible - They seemed to be set up okay But as soon as there's a mistake made everything goes to hell - Rooney loses the ball and every player seems to be all over the shop - Then we concede and the whole thing falls apart - No-one coordinating, no one talking, no one telling the younger/less experienced lads where to be - No one telling them where the gaps in the defence are At the very highest level you can (somewhat) rely on experienced players to "do their own job" - But at our level you need someone on the pitch shouting at them telling them where to be and what to do - The major problem being we have a captain who is learning his position as much as any of the kids are - Rooney is a midfield playmaker now but he's not an organiser - We need the GK to tell the defence where to go and someone in defence to organise the guys in front of them Anyone else think this is essentially a rollover problem from last season? Since we lost Keogh we've had no organisation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta Posted September 28, 2020 Share Posted September 28, 2020 1 minute ago, cheron85 said: I think we're missing leadership on the pitch - Not in the dressing/changing room We started the game well, doing what the manager seems to want from the side - Keep the ball when the opposition are organised and when you see a gap exploit it as fast as possible - They seemed to be set up okay But as soon as there's a mistake made everything goes to hell - Rooney loses the ball and every player seems to be all over the shop - Then we concede and the whole thing falls apart - No-one coordinating, no one talking, no one telling the younger/less experienced lads where to be - No one telling them where the gaps in the defence are At the very highest level you can (somewhat) rely on experienced players to "do their own job" - But at our level you need someone on the pitch shouting at them telling them where to be and what to do - The major problem being we have a captain who is learning his position as much as any of the kids are - Rooney is a midfield playmaker now but he's not an organiser - We need the GK to tell the defence where to go and someone in defence to organise the guys in front of them Anyone else think this is essentially a rollover problem from last season? Since we lost Keogh we've had no organisation No leadership on the pitch is a big problem that's for sure. For all the things Wayne Rooney can be, an inspirational captain isn't one of them as far as I can tell. He is about as inspiring as a tin of beige paint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted September 28, 2020 Share Posted September 28, 2020 3 minutes ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said: No leadership on the pitch is a big problem that's for sure. For all the things Wayne Rooney can be, an inspirational captain isn't one of them as far as I can tell. He is about as inspiring as a tin of beige paint. I think he's inspiring in a way - Everyone wants to step up and show they're worth playing alongside Rooney But he's not an organiser - He's the guy who you watch putting hours of training and effort in - When he's tired you see the team drop - I wonder whether his lack of fitness at the moment is making other players think they don't need to run as hard? That plus he's learning the ropes of that position as much as any of the younger players We need an organiser - We haven't had one since Keogh got injured Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler Durden Posted September 28, 2020 Share Posted September 28, 2020 Not sure about losing the dressing room but suspect judgement giving Rooney the captainship after the last few games - has Cocu actually explained to him that he needs to be leading by example and setting an exemplary standard for his players to follow? Message doesn't have seem to have got through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jono Posted September 28, 2020 Share Posted September 28, 2020 14 hours ago, RoyMac5 said: Really? Did he say owt? I bet he sched lots ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YorkshireRam Posted September 28, 2020 Share Posted September 28, 2020 14 hours ago, RoyMac5 said: Christ, you need to get a life mate. If I was half as dull as you and bothered to analyse your posts what would I find? ? bit ironic coming from the guy that posted 118 times about 'Cocu Out'... ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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