CornwallRam

I reckon there's been some mass hypnosis of football fans over the the last few years. Somehow, people now believe that tedious, short, sideways passing for most of a match is good football. It isn't, it's turgid anti-football nonsense. The brand of football peddled by Clement, Cocu and Rosenior is the least entertaining way of playing imaginable. I'm just amazed that so many people have been convinced by the excitement free, safety of the slow build up. It's Emperors new clothes writ large.

Warne's problem isn't that his brand of football isn't entertaining or effective. A fast passing game with early crosses and a high press is a great way of playing. The trouble is that we aren't playing that way. We're too slow to see the pass, too scared to take risks, not pressing as a team and delaying the crosses until the defence are organised. Warne's massive problem, and the reason he will soon be gone, is that  he has failed to get the team to play Warneball.

I wonder if that's a facet of being at a bigger club? Is he looking too far forward? There's a big thing been made that most of the recruitment has been of players with Championship experience. I suspect at Rotherham, that wasn't a thing. The players brought in were younger athletes with just enough ability to play in an organised League 1 side, but that was perfect for Warneball.

The players bought in here have more proven ability, but are that bit older and slower.  Maybe they are also less mouldable, having already seen how football is played at a higher level. Is that why a proven League 1 manager appears to be a poor fit for Derby County? He's adjusted his style for the bigger club and diluted his winning formula. 

After 50 years of watching football, the common factor with successful teans has just dawned on me. Our best sides are built around the striker's style. Warne is trying to shoehorn the strikers into his style. Yet our best managers worked out what their best strikers needed to be the most successful and set the team up to deliver it for them. 

Chris Martin was a donkey for a lot of his career, but as a pivot striker with Bryson, Ward and Russell running past and Eustace or Thorne feeding him, he looked like a world beater.

Look at the movement of Biano, Wanchope and Sturridge - all made possible by three central defenders and a holding midfielder.

Hector and O'Hare - fed by Hinton and constantly assisted by Gemmil.

Stevie Howard, Charlie George, Saunders and Goddard...etc. Even Nigel fell on a system with Shefki Kuqi starring that briefly looked brilliant until he inexplicably replaced Kuqi with Young. Warne himself accidentally got a winning formula last year with McGoldrick in the 9.5 role (yes I made that term up, but you know what I mean).

My conclusion is that the style doesn't hugely matter, as long as it suits the best strikers available at the club.

5 minutes ago, Gerry Daly said:

Close the thread, Warne isn’t going anywhere soon apparently

That may be Paul Warne's or David Clowes's current view, but football doesn't work like that, - at least not at Derby County

The only way that Warne will stay is if results in the next 20 or so games improve significantly - especially the home form. If were look like we're heading for a promotion challenge, the majority of fans will calm down and this will be like Fergie being one game away from the sack.

However, if things don't improve very quickly, Warne will be gone shortly. He's lost a significant portion of the fans and the rest are only a couple of defeats from turning on him. Derby County is it's fanbase - other clubs might be 95% dependent on their owner, but not us. We couldn't function with 5k league gates and a boycott of the concourse food. No manager can survive here without the support of the fanbase.

Football club ownership and management must both be to some extent driven by ego. Neither Clowes nor Warne would enjoy protests. They would both be looking for a way out and when fans, owner and manager all want Warne out, it's only meeting away from happening.

. 

If we want promotion, Steve McClaren is the best bet.

IMO, McClaren is a brilliant short term manager. He comes in and makes the players believe. He takes away the fear and pushes morale through the roof. He also helps a lot with skill based coaching, which does improve certain players quickly.

I think we'd go up in the top two with McClaren back.

The problem is that McClaren is poor in the medium term. He's tactically one dimensional - other coaches quickly work out how to counter his system. His recruitment decisions are generally below standard and he has no interest in the academy. He is also pretty lax on discipline so dressing room problems eventually take root.

Once the feelgood factor has worn off, there's not much left. To me, McClaren only works in very specific circumstances...it's just that we're exactly at the place now, where we need a bit of brolly magic.

35 minutes ago, Yoxoram said:

I'll have to bow to your greater knowledge of Notts County. I've only got the game against Mansfield to base my opinion on but I'm calling it how I saw it in that game.

Maybe we should get Mansfield's manager? What's his name again?

Before his injuries, Craig Forsyth was actually very quick when going flat out.

The problem is that even then, his acceleration was quite slow, so there weren't many in game opportunities for him to use his pace. I have seen a couple of times, where he had 20 yards to get moving, he left some pretty quick players for dead. He never looked like he was going that quick, but his strides were about 50% longer than most other players, so he moved faster with the same leg speed.

David McGoldrick vs Sonny Bradley. What could possibly go wrong?

Such sad news. It feels like a small part of me has died.

Dad tried hard to get me into football - first couple of matches in Brian Cloughs title year and the a season ticket for Mackay's title, but as youngster I was a bit meh.

Then Franny Lee thumped Norman Hunter and the BBG was the most exciting and loudest place on the planet. I was hooked and my interest in Derby County has never wained from that evening.

RIP Franny.

14 hours ago, sage said:

We know a little more than that.

We don't know exact figures but most of our players have played in the championship or higher directly before coming to us or played in the championship with us.

 

So you're saying that they were cheaper because they were on a downward trajectory and no other club wanted them?

1 hour ago, Tyler Durden said:

Oh no, so another 6 months of tedious arguments about what our budget actually is 

18 actually. In March we'll know last season's figures, which isn't hugely relevant as we were under an embargo and Warne spent more on a coffee machine than actual players.

35 minutes ago, sage said:

We have a top 6 budget. 

All we know is that the owner says we have 'a good budget for League 1'. 

1 minute ago, Ghost of Clough said:

What do you think our club wage budget is? Midtable (12th / 13th) would put us at around £6m

My feeling is that the wage budget is around £6m. That was the budget in administration, but that was in the Championship. We'll have been able to increase the percentage against turnover,  but projected turnover will be lower, so ending with the same budget.

Hourihane, Mendez-Laing, Collins, Smith, Barkhuizen and and possibly Wildsmith are all likely to be on more than average, so it's likely that the first £2m is already spoken for.

Every time that I have seen a club sign a lot of new players in one go, the club has struggled in the first half of the season. We were always going to be inconsistent to start with and won't properly gel until Christmas.

I've also read that posters are convinced that we have a big budget. I don't believe that to be the case. We're restricted by the business plan and several of the signings at the start of last season are likely to be on relatively high wages. I'd suggest that Warne's budget has been very mid-table. Of course none of us will actually find out until the accounts surface. 

I'm concerned that Warne appears unable to get the team to play in the style that he describes, but I honestly think that many of his more vocal critics are being somewhat unrealistic. Warne has been hamstrung by the business plan and the need to add so many players. IMO, most managers would finding things tough.

Success this season will look like being in the top half as we go into 2024 and then being the best team in the league in the last half of the season.

The only problem is that I don't think Warne will survive to see the upturn. I've never seen a manager remain at Derby County for more than a few days after loosing the fans. IMO, Warne is only one abject performance away from match day protests and our situation almost guarantees that at least one of the next three games will see a poor performance. My prediction is Warne will be gone in the next fortnight. 

Ridiculously, I can see McClaren coming in and actually getting us promoted.  

41 minutes ago, Ram@Lincoln said:

Located where I am, my radio picks up several different football commentaries, there's some terrible waffle on many a local station. Some barely talk and sound like they're commentating on snooker or cricket, others mention the game probably once a blue moon. It's a horrendous listen. 

Whilst anything is obviously subjective, the job Ed does is for me very good indeed. He balances the actual game commentary with a Derby supporters angle. If I can't get to a game, I want to feel that I'm at the game. With Ed and any of the pundits, I do feel that I'm at the game with the excitement, the groans, moans and everything in between.

Sure, there's the odd occasion that I don't agree with some conversations, but that's natural, it's an opinion lead sport. Just look at the lineups given by posters here pre match, different selections, formations and tactics. That's football.

Was going to post similar. I've listened to match commentary from several other local radio stations and not one compares favourably with Radio Derby. I think sometimes we take RD for granted. It's so intertwined with the club. Graham Richards, Colin Broomfield and Ed Dawes have been the voice of Derby County for so many.

Personally, I really enjoy Ed's commentary. Yes, he gets swept up in the moment sometimes...but so do I when watching Derby County play. What's the point if you don't get passionate?

I'm so sorry to hear that Ed is struggling. We nearly lost our club and the man was in tears. I kind of remember a saying - we're all Derby aren't we? Maybe a show of support for a true Ram?

Can we do a clap on Saturday? Anyone got any ideas on an appropriate minute?

I reckon the time to sack a manager is 6 weeks before a transfer window opens to give the manager time to assess. So late November is review time for me.

I suppose it helps that I want the vision of football which Warne describes. The problem for me is he's not getting the team to play it. We're just slow and and uncreative. He needs a few more weeks to try to sort things out, but no improvement by the the time the lights go on in the Market Square and he should go.

2 hours ago, Chris_Martin said:

Don't agree with that at all to be honest. 

Heres an example, playing under clough we were a fairly average mid table championship side. Mac comes in and implements an attacking, passing style of play, with the exact same players, and we transformed into promotion material. 

Yes the rebuild has had to be cheap, but thanks to a clever and widely respected rosenior, we were able to attract some quality players, especially for this level. Why do we need to have spirit, fitness, organisation and play pragmatic football to get out this division. That will just make us like 95% of the other teams. We need to be better than them, not the same. How can you say trying to pass our way out of this division with this squad would be a disaster? The vast majority of our squad are used to playing that way and were signed with that style of play in mind.

Why do we have to give it this season and next season to try for promotion? We have the players now, we just need someone who knows how to use them. 

It took Nigel several years and numerous Shaun Barker fees to build that squad and it still fell short. I'd say that your example supports my argument, rather than yours.

Your last point is very difficult to sustain. Isn't a manager with 3 promotions and a 7th place in 4 seasons in this division possibly the most likely manager to know how to use the players?

And how is it waiting for promotion? I think you have really missed the point. Pragmatic football is far more likely to result in promotion with a squad necessarily lacking in quality. Trying to get promoted by playing passing football would, IMO, be waiting for promotion.

Don't get me wrong, it would be better in the medium term to build a squad which could pass its way to promotion. Our weakness will be the same as Paul Warne's Rotherham sides - great for escaping League 1, but outclassed by 90% of Championship teams.

If we could've rebuilt with better quality it would have been far better, but we couldn't, so the reality is pragmatic football is where we are.

5 hours ago, Jimbo Ram said:

A very long post but is the gist we have to play hoof ball 🤔

Maybe I'm missing something, but I have never noticed a Warne team playing hoofball, other than in desperation in the final five minutes. IMO, Warne's aim is to use movement and one/two touch passing to get the ball forward as quickly as possible. It's direct, but not exactly 1980s Wimbledon and Watford.

7 minutes ago, angieram said:

In  that case, he really needs to get rid of the rest of our football playing squad, because Hourihane, Mendez-Laing, Bird, Cashin, Thommo, Sibbs have no future under that style of play. 

That's a bit of an oversimplification. Even with a direct style we need attacking players. Formation changes will suit some players and reduce the effectiveness of others, but generally good players can play direct football if their attitude is right.

OK, the ball players will need strong, aggressive and mobile players around them to play pragmatic football, but some are always needed.

12 hours ago, Rammy03 said:

4 play off defeats in 6 years. 2 finals lost. When will our luck change

When we go back to having blue shorts. Gypsy curses are obviously superstitious nonsense, but the bad Karma created by playing in Robert Maxwell's colours is an albatross around our necks 😙

David Clowes saved our club, but we're still not free of the restrictions caused by administration. We are currently an artificially reduced club. Our turnover, fanbase and history should feed into increased revenue with sponsorship deals and TV appearances. If we'd just been relegated, we would be able, given the right management, to dominate this league.

The problem is that we had 5 players, very few academy players capable of stepping up and serious restrictions on our finances and recruitment. 

Thanks to hard work and commitment from David Clowes, Liam Rosenior and Paul Warne, we are now at a point where we are a 'normal' club again. We have a full squad and the academy has been strengthen. But don't be fooled. We're still not a big Championship club about to boss our way out of League 1.

The calls for passing football are, IMO, naive. You only get promoted by playing passing football if you have a squad full of high quality players that are simply too good for the rest of the division. The restrictions which we've been under have meant that the rebuild has had to be cheap. Quality players aren't cheap. The only way this squad is getting promoted is with spirit, fitness, organisation and pragmatic football. It doesn't matter if we replace Warne tomorrow - trying to pass our way out of this division with this squad would be a disaster. 

I'd also argue that Warne hasn't had any quality academy players to include, so criticising him for not playing them is difficult to justify. 

At this point we need a pragmatic manager. If we replace Warne it will be with someone similar. The restrictions have forced us to build the squad this way and it is logical to give this type of squad this season and next to try for promotion. If that fails, then it will be time to review and maybe bring in a manager who will rebuild with expensive passing players and academy products. By that time the restrictions will be long gone and the size of our club should enable us to be more dominant in the transfer market.

Chris Martin

36 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

Because a wingback starts maybe 10 or 20 yards deeper, has no support from an overlapping fullback, and faces much more serious consequences if they lose the ball.  A winger can afford to gamble and just try and go past a fullback, knowing they have cover in behind, a wingback knows if they lose it doing that, the other team is breaking straight onto our (slow) back 3.  So wingers are normally crossing from better positions (closer to the byline) and in more space (because the defence has to cover the overlapping fullback too, or the winger has already gone past the last defender).

But apart from that? 🤣

28 minutes ago, Loughborough Ram said:

Sonny Bradley will do OK for us. Some players take longer to settle than others

Like Claude Davis?

My guess is that the EFL will fine us a couple of million and dock us 22 points for imitating Plymouth Argyle.

BIG TRAV

BIG TRAY

BIG TRZY

BIG TZZY

BIG OZZY

BIF OZZY

BMF OZZY

IMF OZZY

IM FOZZY

I can't believe that no one has spotted the clue. Just change one letter each time and it's there. Irrefutable evidence that Big Trav is Craig Forsyth.

25 minutes ago, David said:

Ruined my month then 

Quick, someone cheer @David up by posting that old topless barmaid picture.