CornwallRam

1 hour ago, Mckram said:

I think that’s the one thing we still have going for us, so I’d be gutted if we did that.

Also in terms of P&S rules I’m sure the academy doesn’t count towards it, so if we got say Mike Ashley as owner and he was happy to fund the academy then I hope he does. Only got to look at the players who have come through in the last few years and the transfer fees we should have had from them. 

No P&S in League 1

It's hard to believe that there is a better bid out there for a League 1 club with no players and a potentially punitive business plan than £50m. Especially when the man making the bid for the good ship DCFC is a former captain who managed not to sail her onto a reef.

This must surely be the end game. Anyone else interested must make a bid today, and it will need to be impressive if Natalie Jackson is correct. Then, if no one out-bids, Appleby gets a few days to either close the deal or get sufficient funding in place to enter the league for next season. If he can't, we're done. Yet I can't see that he'd bid if he couldn't complete.

The big danger is a high bid from another tyre kicker/fantasist. No more fake Sheikhs, Spanish boxers or crypto golf buddies need apply.

1 hour ago, MACKWORTHRAM said:

I'm the same.

No point in getting the money together to buy a car and then have no money left to put petrol in.

 

Although, if it's a very special special classic car which competed in the earliest motorsport events and is loved by tens of thousands of people and you're saving it from going to Albert Looms, it probably is.

9 minutes ago, atherstoneram said:

HMRC are not unsecured creditors.

Technically, they are, aren't and they might be counted as such. ?

For taxes that the club collected from others, like VAT, PAYE and employee's national insurance contributions, they are a secondary preferential creditor.

For taxes that the club owes directly, like employer's national insurance or corporation tax etc, is is an unsecured creditor. 

Just to complicate things things further, I believe that the EFL are counting the whole HMRC debt as unsecured in the 25/35% rule. I don't think that's particularly relevant though, as I can't see HMRC accepting less and any deal needs their approval. 

I can't remember where I read it, but someone said that the HMRC deal is 25% now followed by another 25% over three years. I think (without checking) that the total is £36m, meaning we'd repay £9m upfront and another £9m over the next three years. No idea how true this is, but doesn't sound too far-fetched. 

13 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

the way MSD have been offering us cash, I would be confident that they will accept a restructuring of the loan/debts.

Only guessing though. I have no ITK. But if I was one of the bidders, I would (via the Administrators) ask if the MSD debts can be paid over 5-7 years, and not starting until next season. This would make the initial investment less. There's no rule that clubs mustn't be in debt, just that they must not be defaulting on those debts.

Actually, there's another more likely option. No one, other than Mel, can buy the club whilst the MSD charge exists its cross security means that the club could be repossessed if Mel didn’t make the loan repayments. 

However, I think pretty much every owner we've had has borrowed against the ground. The new owners could buy the ground and instantly borrow against it. We could easily be back to Glick's, 'debt free other than the mortgage on the stadium' situation. 

43 minutes ago, CornwallRam said:

£20,471,158 from before administration. 

£3,500,000 after administration. 

Actually @RoyMac5 reading a bit further down, it looks like the post admin figure is now £3.75m

2 minutes ago, jono said:

As I understand it Derby County FC owe MSD ….. but Mel has given PPS as security for that debt. So if DCFC fail - I.e are liquidated or only pay x pence in the pound, MSD then go after Mel for the security he offered 

@Ghost of Clough is that right ? 

There's also an added complication that it has been stated that Mel also has given a personal guarantee secured against his personal properties

43 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

So how much do 'we' owe to MSD then?

£20,471,158 from before administration. 

£3,500,000 after administration. 

So, according to the companies house document- thanks @G STAR RAM, Gellaw  owes £123.4m to Mel who is listed as an unsecured creditor. 

So the questions are:

Does Gellaw count as part of the club - it's part of the cross-security arrangement for the MSD loans.

If so, doesn’t that give Mel a veto over any deal?

1 hour ago, Elwood P Dowd said:

I am sure when I read through the  EFL regulations some months ago the was a penalty for not paying the creditors a certain %, this is, of course, if a club were to avoid liquidation and had found a “genuine” buyer. ?

The outtake  I posted above deals with the penalties if a club goes into Liquidation.

The above is the penalty for entering administration, not liquidation. The penalty for liquidation is being a former football club.

9 minutes ago, I know nuffin said:

Wonder how much partron  is worth 

Quite a bit I'd say. The royalties from Jolene alone must be a million a year at least. ?

9 minutes ago, Boycie said:

Wasn’t it today that he had to pay his employee’s or else?

Kelly from Northampton lent him the money to cover it. She really wanted to help her fiancé out, so that bridging loan secured against her home was no problem. He'll pay her back as soon as his money clears...and he must have forgotten that he was getting a new phone as his number is now disconnected. 

14 minutes ago, Curtains said:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-10920025/Former-Derby-chairman-Andy-Appleby-officially-tables-bid-buy-crisis-ridden-club.html

This is what I'm struggling to understand- if Appleby has made a bid, why is the process ongoing?

Unless something drastic has happened, he'll walk the fit and proper test. I can't believe someone of his standing would bid without secured funding. If Appleby has bid enough to take us out of administration and retain the golden share, why has his hand not been snapped off?...assuming it hasn't. Same would go for Ashley or Morgan.

The only conclusion I can draw is that the bid isn't sufficient to retain the golden share. So why haven't Quantuma said, 'no bids can be accepted of less than £21m (or whatever the base figure happens to be), as they won't be sufficient to retain the golden share.

At this point, surely it can't be that complicated - there must be an actual minimum figure, unless everyone is trying to square HMRC

8 minutes ago, hintonsboots said:

If they were totally anonymous how does Nixon know about it ?

 

Duh, haven't you been paying attention? The EFL demanded that they see all correspondence! ?

16 minutes ago, Brailsford Ram said:

Morris only came in a day or two before we played QPR at Wembley when he bought a 25% share of the club. He had nothing to do with building the team that got to the playoffs final. He completed a full takeover in September of the following season and things were never quite the same again and I include the Villa final in that. That day Morris was rolling his dice in the Last Chance Saloon and he lost.

https://amp-theguardian-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/amp.theguardian.com/football/2015/sep/03/derby-mel-morris-takeover?amp_js_v=a6&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw%3D%3D#aoh=16552991919270&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From %1%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Ffootball%2F2015%2Fsep%2F03%2Fderby-mel-morris-takeover

1 hour ago, TuffLuff said:

And I made a joke about it!

Very nearly:-)

18 minutes ago, CBX1985 said:

I think the club's immortality, at present, is difficult for many to comprehend.

We are flailing around in the Pacific Ocean with sharks everywhere.  We are hundreds of miles from shore.  We need a boat, a dinghy, a high flying jet to call for help and bring someone to us.  If someone comes and offers us a hand up, but we're sleeping with the livestock so be it.   We can start our lives again when we get onto dry land.  

We are beggars and we cannot be choosers.  

 

Sheep sh@g army! ?

54 minutes ago, Eatonram said:

The EFL insolvency rules require 25% to preferred creditors (HMRC) or 35% over 3 years. If you fail to exit admin in that way it is -15

No, I believe the rules say 25/35 to the unsecured creditors, which is only a very small amount of the debt. 

The difference between 10% and 25% is considerably less than a £1m and definitely not worth taking -15.

I'm with Mostyn on this. It's a full deal or no deal. 

The only way I can see -15 is if we fail another term of the insolvency rules - which don't appear to be in the public domain so it's impossible to know. However, the penalty for failing any part of it is upto -15.

One option is not being able to show a 10 year tenancy agreement for the stadium. 

26 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

hang on, who said he'd failed the anti laundering checks? For all you know, his money is still held up and he just gave up to allow the club to move on.

I didn't say he had failed, I said that it logic dictated that it was one of two likely scenarios. 

If he did not fail the AML check, he never sent the money in the first place - which I think is the most likely.

His bid will have incurred costs. He would not walk away whilst there was a chance of it succeeding, ie, if his payment was still being 'processed'.

6 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

in a nutshell, yes. He is young and ambitious and so far the ONLY person that's shown willing to save the club. He cannot possibly have thought his money would fail any checks. Have you ever considered he and his advisors have no prior expertise in this field? Many people fail things, it isn't always down to character flaw ffs!

I believe(d) that CK, simply by aligning with Cook, Rooney and Stretford, had vision and belief, and was basically backing himself/Derby to succeed, and that is what I wanted from whoever owns us.

What I don't want is owners NOT committed to a vision of success.

I think you're being a bit naive there Mostyn. Failing an anti money laundering check has inherent reputational damage. Anyone with £21m can afford a good lawyer. The authorities will not block transfers without good reasons.

6 minutes ago, NottmRAM said:

Q should have stuck with the idea of asking for £5m deposit for PB status.

If they had, there'd have been zero interested parties. We owe more than £30m to HMRC who would only negotiate with a preferred bidder. No one was going to risk a nonrefundable £5m to flnd out that the overall deal was £68m. It was always pie in the sky.

20 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

of course he could quite easily have thought "screw this" after all the abuse, accusations and harassment. I know I would've reconsidered paying over the odds for a Lg1 club with no assets and I'm a Derby fan!

Man claims to have sent money. Money doesn't arrive.

Man claims money has been sent but the delay is anti money laundering check.

Money never does arrive.

Logically there are two options.

A, it was never sent.

B, it failed the anti money laundering check.

Whichever was the case, was that really someone we wanted owning our club?

39 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

The problem is, there's an absolute floor to the price here - if you don't pay enough to clear the MSD/Stadium issue (whether it be you, a 3rd party, Morris, whatever) and enough to clear football creditors and whatnot, there is no deal - the club will simply not be allowed back into the league and the purchaser will not follow through on it.  That doesn't really exist with something like the Missguided deal - that's a straight game of brinkmanship between the purchaser and the creditors - you just find the sweet spot between the two positions, and the deal goes through.

Ashley currently seems to be offering below that floor, so either he has to up his bid significantly (which is money he seemingly doesn't want to spend), negotiate something with someone somewhere (which takes time), or accept 3rd party ownership of the stadium (which he is apparently not happy with).

I completely agree with you about the floor price. That's exactly how I understand it. The thing is though, logically we must both be wrong.

If it was a simple as saying floor pice is (figures just as illustration) £20m for stadium and either £25m upfront or £15m upfront plus anther £15m over three years - why do we have interested parties?

If the figures were set in stone, surely they'd either be bidders or not interested? Logically, there has to be some scope for negotiation or we'd have either been bought or liquidated by now. Struggling to come up with viable options.

Maybe squeezing Mel to take less for the stadium whilst still paying off MSD? Maybe trying to get a court to sanction a restructuring plan where HMRC get get wrung out to 10%? Taking the EFL to court and arguing that this is 50% their fault so they'll have to pay 50% of the football creditors? None look very likely, but Ashley especially must see some wiggle room somewhere. 

On the plus side, the next time a club goes into administration, DCFCFans is the goto place for info and advice. We've all learnt so much over these last few months.

1 hour ago, RAMS1992 said:

I thought Morgan had bowed out?

He did, but then he decided that it was time for an encore and moonwalked back on. He's now break dancing like a refugee from 1984 on a piece of cardboard, hoping that Quantuma reject Mike Ashley's 3rd rate Def Leopard impression.