Paul Warne

[RoyMac5]

45 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Ah the life of a football manager...

Brown started against Chesterfield, but didn't do an awful lot, then got subbed off.  Some people on here said it would have been better for him to come on as a finisher when the opposition are tiring.

Last night Brown comes on as a sub, doesn't do an awful lot and some people are saying he should have started... - would anyone really trust him with longer in the Championship this season, in which every point is likely to be vital?

Yes, he's a goal scorer who has been in the right place to score when he's been on the pitch.

But Warne will trust Cirewa instead?

Edited August 28 by RoyMac5

[MACKWORTHRAM]

1 hour ago, Animal is a Ram said:

I'd agree with this, but it does bring us back around to the striker problem. Happy with Yates, but he needs a partner better than Collins or Brown.

Yeah agree mate. This is what I mean with having the right personnel.

If we're playing a 352 we need a better striker to be playing up front with Yates.

[The_Sheriff]

This is where I appear to be completely on my own. I think it's a lazy narrative the football style is naff.

I enjoy the style. I probably need ghost of clough to work his magic with stats but under cocu and rooney and rosenior to an extent it was too much slow build up sideways passing.  

I haven't done the research so I may be proven wrong here but in my head we score more goals under Warne then the 3 before him. We definitely sorted out the set piece problem where we've gone from being awful at them to good.

 

 

Edited August 28 by The_Sheriff

[Barney1991]

1 minute ago, The_Sheriff said:

This is where I appear to be completely on my own. I think it's a lazy narrative the football style is naff.

I enjoy the style. I probably need ghost of clough to work his magic with stats but under cocu and rooney and rosenior to an extent it was too much slow build up sideways passing.  

I haven't done the research so I may be proven wrong here but in my head we score more goals under Warne then the 3 before him. We definitely sorted out the set piece problem where we've gone from being awful at them to good.

 

 

Aspects of it I enjoy putting bodies on the line. Being organised etc. it’s just when we have the ball. At least under the other 3 we could pass the ball. You can’t keep going in a 46 game season trying to hold on and relying on a mistake or set piece 

[Ghost of Clough]

42 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

This I think is the aspect that concerns me the most and will potentially set us back years. 

We cannot hope to progress meaningfully as a club if we can't find a way to sidestep the reality of being financially outgunned in the championship. Ultimately we need to be able to generate value through players through a combination of developing players, finding bargains and selling at profit. Our academy is the greatest asset we have in that respect as we can meaningful compete for talent at that level but it's good for nothing if we don't develop players, give them enough chances and retain them for long enough. 

Going into league 1 we had the 5 players you mentioned that you could earmark as a young core to start rebuilding a squad around. Because all of them had demonstrated to some level or another capability at playing at the level above and you'd expect them to improve. So when we hit the championship they'd either be key players or sellable for decent money. Yet three of them have left for very little, one of them is far down the pecking order and they've not really been replaced with players at similar levels developmentally internally or not (aside from Kenzo).

Not one single player from the academy has broken through in two years. You can make the argument around the academy disruption but there should be more than zero. Darren Robinson is a reasonable example, he made his first and only appearance in 2021 and is now 19. By now you'd have expected with the right coaching he'd be at point where he'd be at least a squad player. But it goes beyond that. No player has improved where they sit within the squad. Look at Thompson, he was excellent in a significant number of games in the relegation season and you'd have expected him by now at 22 to be first choice. Or with Brown, with no strikers other than Collins on the books and at a glance pretty much looks like he's nearly there you'd think we'd devote more time to seeing if he could push on early doors whilst we looked for a signifcantly better option. Yet we will probably send him out on loan to somewhere and bring in some other 19 year old on loan to middling at best success.

Minutes given to academy players (excluding games vs U21 sides) since Warne has been manager:
Brown - 130
Cybulski - 90
Robinson - 45
Oduroh - 44
Aghatise - 14
Bardell - 14
Radcliffe - 11
Fapetu - 9
Weston - 6

It doesn't make for great reading when Ozoh has already played more for our first team after 5 games (387 mins), than all of our academy players combined (363 mins) in just under 2 years of Warne as manager. John-Jules (375 mins) and Harvey White (539 mins) also played more for our first team.

It shouldn't be surprising though. Even Yates struggled to get in the side at Rotherham with just 2060 minutes across his time there. After being a frindge player for 2 seasons, he went out on loan for the next two seasons to L2 sides. Blackpool then snapped him up for just £200k and he finished the season with 23 goals and 9 assists in all competitions.

[duncanjwitham]

32 minutes ago, Gerry Daly said:

Why are the fans so quickly ready to pounce on him? Why do they have far less patience and trust in him than they might in another manager do you think? Particularly given that he achieved promotion quickly? 

Is it that Derby fans are a particularly impatient, fickle and entitled lot or is it something about Warne and the way he goes about things?  

I can't tell if your question was supposed to be rhetorical, but for me it's simple.  If you aren't getting results, then you've got to have something to fall back on.  If you're playing attractive/entertaining football, then by and large the fans will give you time to get it right.  If you are clearly building something, then the fans will give you some time to get there.  If you are blooding youngsters then the fans will give them time to develop.

As it stands, we're playing absolutely awful football, and we've got a team that's largely full of players over 30 (or close to anyway) and other clubs youngsters.  Of the guys who are getting regular football for us, who do we think could potentially be a really good player for us over the next say 3 years (or at least a player who improves in value, that we can sell and reinvest)?  Cashin, Goudmijn, Zetterstrom, Wilson maybe, and that's it?  Rooney hasn't kicked a ball in a year, and was barely involved before that.  Thompson gets the odd appearance, Brown even less, and none of our other youngsters get a look in.  The rest of the squad will either be retired, have moved to club down the leagues, or have gone back to their parent clubs.  We're not building anything, we're not developing anything.  There's basically nothing to give you any hope that things will get better.

[brady1993]

8 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Minutes given to academy players (excluding games vs U21 sides) since Warne has been manager:
Brown - 130
Cybulski - 90
Robinson - 45
Oduroh - 44
Aghatise - 14
Bardell - 14
Radcliffe - 11
Fapetu - 9
Weston - 6

It doesn't make for great reading when Ozoh has already played more for our first team after 5 games (387 mins), than all of our academy players combined (363 mins) in just under 2 years of Warne as manager. John-Jules (375 mins) and Harvey White (539 mins) also played more for our first team.

It shouldn't be surprising though. Even Yates struggled to get in the side at Rotherham with just 2060 minutes across his time there. After being a frindge player for 2 seasons, he went out on loan for the next two seasons to L2 sides. Blackpool then snapped him up for just £200k and he finished the season with 23 goals and 9 assists in all competitions.

Out of curiosity out of those you mentioned who would you have expected to be at least squad players by now ?

I think the overlying trend is that he doesn't trust players who either aren't well established or his own signings and potentially an element that players from premier league academies are always going to be better than our academy because of their league position. That last bit frankly might come from his experience as a player and a manager.

[nottingram]

2 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

I can't tell if your question was supposed to be rhetorical, but for me it's simple.  If you aren't getting results, then you've got to have something to fall back on.  If you're playing attractive/entertaining football, then by and large the fans will give you time to get it right.  If you are clearly building something, then the fans will give you some time to get there.  If you are blooding youngsters then the fans will give them time to develop.

As it stands, we're playing absolutely awful football, and we've got a team that's largely full of players over 30 (or close to anyway) and other clubs youngsters.  Of the guys who are getting regular football for us, who do we think could potentially be a really good player for us over the next say 3 years (or at least a player who improves in value, that we can sell and reinvest)?  Cashin, Goudmijn, Zetterstrom, Wilson maybe, and that's it?  Rooney hasn't kicked a ball in a year, and was barely involved before that.  Thompson gets the odd appearance, Brown even less, and none of our other youngsters get a look in.  The rest of the squad will either be retired, have moved to club down the leagues, or have gone back to their parent clubs.  We're not building anything, we're not developing anything.  There's basically nothing to give you any hope that things will get better.

Utterly depressing we have got to this point two years on from having a complete blank canvas which while it meant a need to recruit a team from scratch (I can forgive our first window for that reason) it was also an amazing opportunity.

I don’t really blame Warne for it, a manager will always be short term thinking by their nature, but there has (or rather had) to be a need for an overarching football figure above the manager to oversee all this stuff. I remember when Thomas was appointed and Warne was involved in his recruitment - just utterly crazy.

i clearly have no idea on who’s role is what but is it a coincidence we have been incredibly short term thinking during the entirety of the current CEO’s tenure?

[maxjam]

41 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Yes, he's a goal scorer who has been in the right place to score when he's been on the pitch.

But Warne will trust Cirewa instead?

He trusted him for 45 mins in a relatively minor game, to give him minutes and a feel for playing for Derby.  I doubt he will start on Saturday in a game that matters considerably more.

I appreciate that Brown is 'one of our own' and has potential, but he's still young and not really performed when given opportunities.  A good Lg1 loan this season would be far better for his confidence and development than the odd bit of game time here. 

19 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Minutes given to academy players (excluding games vs U21 sides) since Warne has been manager:
Brown - 130
Cybulski - 90
Robinson - 45
Oduroh - 44
Aghatise - 14
Bardell - 14
Radcliffe - 11
Fapetu - 9
Weston - 6

The same applies for these.  Are any of these better than what we have already - both last season and this season we will likely be desperate for every point we can get, not really the best time to throw untried youth in.  The better option is to loan them out and see how they progress.

Bringing in older freebies or better loans doesn't block any pathway should our loaned out players prove to be good enough, but we're not really in a position to gamble on them coming good - maybe in a few seasons when we're a midtable side, sure, but right now we need quality/experience.

[Gaspode]

22 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Minutes given to academy players (excluding games vs U21 sides) since Warne has been manager:
Brown - 130
Cybulski - 90
Robinson - 45
Oduroh - 44
Aghatise - 14
Bardell - 14
Radcliffe - 11
Fapetu - 9
Weston - 6

It doesn't make for great reading when Ozoh has already played more for our first team after 5 games (387 mins), than all of our academy players combined (363 mins) in just under 2 years of Warne as manager. John-Jules (375 mins) and Harvey White (539 mins) also played more for our first team.

It shouldn't be surprising though. Even Yates struggled to get in the side at Rotherham with just 2060 minutes across his time there. After being a frindge player for 2 seasons, he went out on loan for the next two seasons to L2 sides. Blackpool then snapped him up for just £200k and he finished the season with 23 goals and 9 assists in all competitions.

It's weird - our own young players aren't considered good enough, yet Warne seems to be completely star-struck by young players from PL teams.....

[RoyMac5]

Just now, maxjam said:

He trusted him for 45 mins in a relatively minor game, to give him minutes and a feel for playing for Derby.  I doubt he will start on Saturday in a game that matters considerably more.

I appreciate that Brown is 'one of our own' and has potential, but he's still young and not really performed when given opportunities.  A good Lg1 loan this season would be far better for his confidence and development than the odd bit of game time here...

Bringing in older freebies or better loans doesn't block any pathway should our loaned out players prove to be good enough, but we're not really in a position to gamble on them coming good - maybe in a few seasons when we're a midtable side, sure, but right now we need quality/experience.

45minutes is not opportunity when he has no service. Took his pressure penalty well.

I think a loan out would be better for his progress than staying here.

 

[Ghost of Clough]

12 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

Out of curiosity out of those you mentioned who would you have expected to be at least squad players by now ?

I think the overlying trend is that he doesn't trust players who either aren't well established or his own signings and potentially an element that players from premier league academies are always going to be better than our academy because of their league position. That last bit frankly might come from his experience as a player and a manager.

Only Brown and Robinson if given the game time over the last 2 seasons to develop would be part of the first team squad.

However, back in 2020, Cocu thought very highly of the likes of Solomon and Ibrahim. Rooney draft Cybulski in for a few games in the first team. Even last season, Weston and Fapetu played well when given a shot in the first team only to be missing from the squad the game after. Football is about opportunities and can make a big difference in a players future.

At the very least, minutes to the academy players lightens the workload for the senior players, whilst also creating a better image of our academy to potential recruits.

[brady1993]

7 minutes ago, Gaspode said:

It's weird - our own young players aren't considered good enough, yet Warne seems to be completely star-struck by young players from PL teams.....

Thinking about it I do think it makes sense to an extent when view it from where Warne has experience. Most of the clubs he played for and the one club he managed were small clubs with likely very little in the way of academy setup. They are also the kinds of clubs who often have to wheel and deal a bit with PL loans, who will come in and be better than what they have more often than not. Despite our league position our academy setup is significantly closer to one of a premier league team than Warne has ever dealt with before and it might well be that his mentality hasn't really shifted. 

[Barney1991]

We need to look at money from merchandise. he loves a bobble hat so his replacement needs to either love a scarf or an UMBRELLA ☂️ 

for kenzo with the Dutch connection  

 

Edited August 28 by Barney1991

[Steveb52a]

1 hour ago, brady1993 said:

Out of curiosity out of those you mentioned who would you have expected to be at least squad players by now ?

I think the overlying trend is that he doesn't trust players who either aren't well established or his own signings and potentially an element that players from premier league academies are always going to be better than our academy because of their league position. That last bit frankly might come from his experience as a player and a manager.

Fapetu, he's virtually the same age, the same style of player as David Ozoh and looked good in the first team when we played him. Can't believe we let him go to be honest. Very disappointed. I guess we'll find out in the future if he comed good!

[Chris_Martin]

1 hour ago, The_Sheriff said:

This is where I appear to be completely on my own. I think it's a lazy narrative the football style is naff.

I enjoy the style. I probably need ghost of clough to work his magic with stats but under cocu and rooney and rosenior to an extent it was too much slow build up sideways passing.  

I haven't done the research so I may be proven wrong here but in my head we score more goals under Warne then the 3 before him. We definitely sorted out the set piece problem where we've gone from being awful at them to good.

 

 

what do you enjoy about the style?

I agree it was slow build up under Cocu & Rosenior's very limited time in charge. However, it's not just posession for posession's sake. If you have the ball, you mostly dictate how the game will go.

There is a huge caveat when comparing those managers though. Warne is the only one to have managed a top team in a lesser league. The others had mid to low end table teams in a tougher league. 

i agree with you on set pieces, but if it's at the expense of the actual gameplay, i'd rather go back to what we had before.

[Gerry Daly]

2 hours ago, duncanjwitham said:

I can't tell if your question was supposed to be rhetorical, but for me it's simple.  If you aren't getting results, then you've got to have something to fall back on.  If you're playing attractive/entertaining football, then by and large the fans will give you time to get it right.  If you are clearly building something, then the fans will give you some time to get there.  If you are blooding youngsters then the fans will give them time to develop.

As it stands, we're playing absolutely awful football, and we've got a team that's largely full of players over 30 (or close to anyway) and other clubs youngsters.  Of the guys who are getting regular football for us, who do we think could potentially be a really good player for us over the next say 3 years (or at least a player who improves in value, that we can sell and reinvest)?  Cashin, Goudmijn, Zetterstrom, Wilson maybe, and that's it?  Rooney hasn't kicked a ball in a year, and was barely involved before that.  Thompson gets the odd appearance, Brown even less, and none of our other youngsters get a look in.  The rest of the squad will either be retired, have moved to club down the leagues, or have gone back to their parent clubs.  We're not building anything, we're not developing anything.  There's basically nothing to give you any hope that things will get better.

My post wasn't rhetorical at all, it was in response to Sherriff who was basically saying we are all on the managers back unfairly. I agree with you entirely. My best years watching Derby were seeing Arthur Cox building the club back up from just as weak a position. You could see what he was trying to do. You could see the progress. Sure we didn't win every game but the fans were right behind him for the reasons you give in your first paragraph

[tomsdubs]

2 hours ago, The_Sheriff said:

This is where I appear to be completely on my own. I think it's a lazy narrative the football style is naff.

I enjoy the style. I probably need ghost of clough to work his magic with stats but under cocu and rooney and rosenior to an extent it was too much slow build up sideways passing.  

I haven't done the research so I may be proven wrong here but in my head we score more goals under Warne then the 3 before him. We definitely sorted out the set piece problem where we've gone from being awful at them to good.

 

 

You enjoy this style? Come on Paul logoff and get back on the training pitch.

[duncanjwitham]

1 minute ago, Gerry Daly said:

My post wasn't rhetorical at all, it was in response to Sherriff who was basically saying we are all on the managers back unfairly. I agree with you entirely. My best years watching Derby were seeing Arthur Cox building the club back up from just as weak a position. You could see what he was trying to do. You could see the progress. Sure we didn't win every game but the fans were right behind him for the reasons you give in your first paragraph

There was definitely a hint of "I can't imagine what is it about Paul Warne's terrible, abysmal football that makes Derby fans get on his back so quickly..." in your post 😉

[The_Sheriff]

1 hour ago, Chris_Martin said:

what do you enjoy about the style?

I agree it was slow build up under Cocu & Rosenior's very limited time in charge. However, it's not just posession for posession's sake. If you have the ball, you mostly dictate how the game will go.

There is a huge caveat when comparing those managers though. Warne is the only one to have managed a top team in a lesser league. The others had mid to low end table teams in a tougher league. 

i agree with you on set pieces, but if it's at the expense of the actual gameplay, i'd rather go back to what we had before.

I knew I needed a tinfoil hat to go against the grain so appreciate you making it a discussion instead of berating my opinion.

Can't argue Warne got to impose his style in a lesser league (obviously) however it's a fact it worked.  

Under other managers it felt like we were passing for passing sake and not scoring goals. Under cocu I'm pretty sure we went on a terrible run of binary code scorelines which I think has scarred me.

What I like about the PW style is I feel like we are always in the game, I think there's explosive break aways available to us and in my head we don't concede loads and we score goals. 

With our squad and our budget I just can't see us playing any other way and having success from it.  I think so far we have looked OK. Blackburn we were on top at 1-1 then collapsed.   

Middlesbrough we did the right thing by not going toe to toe as they would smash us if we did with our squad quality compared to theirs.

Watford we could have got a point on another day so I think the reaction now is just fans who have been waiting to jump on Warne at the first given moment.