Max Bird - stay or go?

[Carl Sagan]

Max is really skillful, but doesn't impact the game enough. I've always thought the best he can do is to be like Michael Carrick, who was very good at what he did, and a lovely passer, but didn't reach the very highest level because he couldn't shoot or tackle. And that's Max.

Today he had a great shooting opportunity, but is not a natural shooter and scuffed it. He ran the entire length of the field with the ball (not helped by Ward's aimless run), but then didn't know what to do with it. He made one tackle in the entire match. He needs to constantly demand the ball - to be our quarterback - but he doesn't get very involved. Today he only touched the ball 33 times. I think it was an error by Warne to try to turn him into a number 10 pre-season, and to keep pushing him forward, when he is never going to score goals. Would be much better off learning to play the holding role better.

If he's reading this, I'm sure he knows it too, and I'd urge him to try to dominate the game in future. Shout for the ball and always make himself available. But if we're lucky enough to get a decent bid (anything into 7 figures), right now I don't feel it's worth hanging on to him. Brutal I know. I can understand the arguments for keeping Cashin, and Max should be playing at the same level, but he doesn't seem to be.

[Dcfcsr92]

2 hours ago, sage said:

I find your posts very strange. 

Why are they?

[Caerphilly Ram]

8 minutes ago, Carl Sagan said:

Max is really skillful, but doesn't impact the game enough. I've always thought the best he can do is to be like Michael Carrick, who was very good at what he did, and a lovely passer, but didn't reach the very highest level because he couldn't shoot or tackle. And that's Max.

Today he had a great shooting opportunity, but is not a natural shooter and scuffed it. He ran the entire length of the field with the ball (not helped by Ward's aimless run), but then didn't know what to do with it. He made one tackle in the entire match. He needs to constantly demand the ball - to be our quarterback - but he doesn't get very involved. Today he only touched the ball 33 times. I think it was an error by Warne to try to turn him into a number 10 pre-season, and to keep pushing him forward, when he is never going to score goals. Would be much better off learning to play the holding role better.

If he's reading this, I'm sure he knows it too, and I'd urge him to try to dominate the game in future. Shout for the ball and always make himself available. But if we're lucky enough to get a decent bid (anything into 7 figures), right now I don't feel it's worth hanging on to him. Brutal I know. I can understand the arguments for keeping Cashin, and Max should be playing at the same level, but he doesn't seem to be.

Now….I often think of Max as being Carrick-esque in his role at Derby, statistically you can’t see evidence of his influence on games, doesn’t score or assist enough would be the common criticism from his doubters….and yet when he’s missing from the team we don’t do as well (our good runs this season and last have coincided with his presence in the team). 

If people look up what Carrick’s team mates and managers thought of him they’d find how highly rated he was (don’t agree with your comment he didn’t reach the highest level by the way, he won 5 premier leagues, one FA Cup and a Champions League at United, fairly impressive haul in my opinion and was a key part of the midfield chosen by arguably the greatest manager other than BC), he did the simple things that knitted the teams he played in together and allowed others to do their jobs, I think Bird is similar for us, doesn’t get the glory of scoring and assisting but facilitates others doing so.
 

If Bird is a poor as some on here are keen to point out after today I’d ask them what it is that Warne, Rosenior, Rooney, Cocu see in him? He’s clearly got something to be rated by those managers and the players he’s played with 🤷🏻‍♂️ 

Edited January 1 by Caerphilly Ram

[sage]

Just now, Dcfcsr92 said:

Why are they?

I don't know, I don't write them

[europia]

Not so much interested in the hypothetical fee that might be achieved if Bird was sold, but more on how are we going to strengthen the midfield to sustain a promotion bid which, will most likely be via the play offs. 

[ziggazagga]

Thanks for confirming my point 

[DRBee]

Played further forward, as he has been recently, Bird doesn't cut it - he is indecisive when given a shooting chance but Hourihane, who Warne plays further back is much better at that ( though not necessarily having the energy now to this effectively ). The Max Bird  we knew with incisive passing has long disappeared.

[Grumpy Git]

I've said it before, (on the match thread).

Bird would look ten times the player in a good side, we're not in division three because we're a good side!

[Caerphilly Ram]

Just now, Grumpy Git said:

I've said it before, (on the match thread).

Bird would look ten times the player in a good side, we're not in division three because we're a good side!

We’re also not in league one because we’re a bad side. 

[angieram]

I thought Bird was excellent at Wigan, was instrumental in our comeback at Oxford, today his was the key pass forward that made our first goal, his run on goal was great too until Ward ran the wrong way to create an angle for the final ball. 

He has worked his bloody socks off (they're not very long!) in a two man midfield with an aging partner over the last three games.

I'd like to see how wonderful that Randall would be in the same circumstances? 

Tsssh.

[Rich3478]

I think it’s time to move on from bird, we’re playing in league one and he’s still not running games. Is a nice footballer with some good passing but not sure that’s enough. 
 

[Zag zig]

3 minutes ago, DRBee said:

Played further forward, as he has been recently, Bird doesn't cut it - he is indecisive when given a shooting chance but Hourihane, who Warne plays further back is much better at that ( though not necessarily having the energy now to this effectively ). The Max Bird  we knew with incisive passing has long disappeared.

Not disputing your comments but I’d say a likely reason is age and legs. He sees Bird more mobile, doesn’t mean Hourihane doesn’t join in at times; particularly set plays or when we’re camping in the opposition half.

Just generally I suspect Warne wants Bird to develop more into the player Hourihane was. Of course, could be talking utter tosh, but it’s often crossed my mind when the Bird/Hourihane sitting or playing further up around the box comes into discussion.

[IslandExile]

Stay.

Keep the best players.

Play football.

[May Contain Nuts]

32 minutes ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

Not sure that one passes the test tbf.

He's gone from making an immediate impression as a surprisingly accomplished Championship CB to, unsurprisingly, being a highly accomplished League One CB. I think he's maintained his standard rather than improved.

Edited January 1 by May Contain Nuts

[kevinhectoring]

I’d miss his class. Loved to watch him alongside Shinnie  

[Caerphilly Ram]

1 minute ago, May Contain Nuts said:

Not sure that one passes the test tbf.

He's gone from making an immediate impression as a surprisingly accomplished Championship CB to, unsurprisingly, being a highly accomplished League One CB. I think he's maintained his standard rather than improved.

So there’s been no improvement in his game over the last two seasons? Granted it may be circumstantial due to his increased game time and experience but in my opinion he has progressed and improved over the last two years and it coincides with the current management team being here. Now...it may not necessarily directly result from their input but that would spoil my fun 

[May Contain Nuts]

8 minutes ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

So there’s been no improvement in his game over the last two seasons? Granted it may be circumstantial due to his increased game time and experience but in my opinion he has progressed and improved over the last two years and it coincides with the current management team being here. Now...it may not necessarily directly result from their input but that would spoil my fun 

What is it you think he's doing better now than he was under Rooney when playing against a higher level of opponent? IMO he looked good enough on first appearance for a top end Championship club and he still looks like a top end Championship CB now.

Edited January 1 by May Contain Nuts

[Caerphilly Ram]

1 minute ago, May Contain Nuts said:

What is it you think he's doing better now than he was under Rooney when playing against a higher level of opponent?

I think he’s reading the game better, he’s not getting as tight to the opponent he’s marking, I think his bringing the ball out and passing is improving though still inconsistent at times. 
In honesty Nuts it was a tongue in cheek post because it feels like the mood on here has turned very quickly today on the back of one poor result, prior to which we had a good run and some stronger performances. People writing off Max Bird’s Derby career and an undertone against Warne’s ability to manage and coach bubbling away quietly once more. If that’s how people feel about Bird and Warne then it’s how they feel, I’ve made my own thoughts clear on it. 

[Dcfcsr92]

6 minutes ago, sage said:

I don't know, I don't write them

Because you disagree? 

[May Contain Nuts]

13 minutes ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

I think he’s reading the game better, he’s not getting as tight to the opponent he’s marking, I think his bringing the ball out and passing is improving though still inconsistent at times. 
In honesty Nuts it was a tongue in cheek post because it feels like the mood on here has turned very quickly today on the back of one poor result, prior to which we had a good run and some stronger performances. People writing off Max Bird’s Derby career and an undertone against Warne’s ability to manage and coach bubbling away quietly once more. If that’s how people feel about Bird and Warne then it’s how they feel, I’ve made my own thoughts clear on it. 

I get where you're coming from but I'm looking at Cashin in isolation. As you say some stuff can simply be put down as experience, but I think Cashin is proving that class is permanent, I think that (to a degree) the idea that he's improved is based on him having a poor spell of form earlier this season under Warne and sometimes people forget how good he was last season.

I'm not sure I agree the mood has turned, I've not read any proper slaggings off on the back of today, just reasoned analysis. I haven't seen anything that matches the "told you so's" which have come from some quarters with our good form, I just think it's served as a reminder that not all of the criticisms of Warne's overall performance should be dismissed and thrown under the a blanket with 'haters' embroided on it.

Edited January 1 by May Contain Nuts