Max Bird - stay or go?

[Caerphilly Ram]

9 minutes ago, May Contain Nuts said:

I get where you're coming from but I'm looking at Cashin in isolation. As you say some stuff can simply be put down as experience, but I think Cashin is proving that class is permanent, I think that (to a degree) the idea that he's improved is based on him having a poor spell of form earlier this season under Warne and sometimes people forget how good he was last season.

I'm not sure I agree the mood has turned, I've not read any proper slaggings off on the back of today, just reasoned analysis. I haven't seen anything that matches the "told you so'" which have come with our good form, I just think it's served as a reminder that not all of the criticisms of Warne's overall performance should be dismissed and thrown under the a blanket named 'haters'.

Hence why I said an undertone, and I’ve rarely dismissed anything anyone has to say or thrown a blanket over anyone in terms of generalisations. I’m happy to own my opinions and back them up with rationale if and when I see fit. Any “I told you so’s” on my part that I can think of probably came very specifically in the Oxford thread in which I spoke about the room for optimism early in the game and then got caught up in the joy at the end result. I don’t think I’ve done any other outward gloating as I’ve repeatedly professed patience with Warne, the team, and the season good or bad (marathon not a sprint type thinking).
 

Where I think there’s a conversation to be had I’ll have one, I just saw an opportunity to post an image of Cashin in response to the earlier post that was meant tongue in cheek in an attempt to raise a smile, clearly it didn’t land how I intended. I apologise to everyone for derailing the Max Bird thread with my poor humour. 

Edited January 1 by Caerphilly Ram

[May Contain Nuts]

10 minutes ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

Hence why I said an undertone, and I’ve rarely dismissed anything anyone has to say or thrown a blanket over anyone in terms of generalisations. I’m happy to own my opinions and back them up with rationale if and when I see fit. Any “I told you so’s” on my part that I can think of probably came very specifically in the Oxford thread in which I spoke about the room for optimism early in the game and then got caught up in the joy at the end result. I don’t think I’ve done any other outward gloating as I’ve repeatedly professed patience with Warne, the team, and the season good or bad. 
 

Where I think there’s a conversation to be had I’ll have one, I just saw an opportunity to post an image of Cashin in response to the earlier post that was meant tongue in cheek in an attempt to raise a smile, clearly it didn’t land how I intended. 

As always I don't include your good self in comments about told you so's etc.

My issue is with the blind faithers who, given opportunity to put considered arguments forward for why the doubters should keep faith, could never really come up with a substantiated answer but have seen recent good form as cause to feather their nest and "s*** on the b******* below" as it were and take the high ground.

Again, you have never been part of that group and you're a poster who's opinion I value, you've never resorted to any of the  underhand b******* a few specialise in.

Edited January 1 by May Contain Nuts

[Caerphilly Ram]

4 minutes ago, May Contain Nuts said:

As always I don't include your good self in comments about told you so's etc.

My issue is with the blind faithers who, given opportunity to put considered arguments forward for why the doubters should keep faith, could never really come up with a substantiated answer but have seen recent good form as cause to feather their nest and "s*** on the b******* below" as it were and take the high ground.

Again, you have never been part of that group and you're a poster who's opinion I value, you've never resorted to any of the  underhand b******* a few specialise in.

Extremists on all sides, Warne in Warne out, Warne shake it all about. Max Bird is a god, no he’s the devil etc. 

I don’t think for a promotion push the squad needs major surgery or to lose a player like Bird (or Cashin), Warne’s development of young players may well be an issue…but he won’t be here forever such is the nature of the beast. I’d rather we keep the Birds and Sibley’s of the world whilst upgrading the Smith’s and Hourihane’s for younger models so that WHEN (not IF) we go up the squad is in theory better placed to stay in the championship either with Warne or A N Other as manager. 

[May Contain Nuts]

2 minutes ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

Extremists on all sides, Warne in Warne out, Warne shake it all about. Max Bird is a god, no he’s the devil etc. 

I don’t think for a promotion push the squad needs major surgery or to lose a player like Bird (or Cashin), Warne’s development of young players may well be an issue…but he won’t be here forever such is the nature of the beast. I’d rather we keep the Birds and Sibley’s of the world whilst upgrading the Smith’s and Hourihane’s for younger models so that WHEN (not IF) we go up the squad is in theory better placed to stay in the championship either with Warne or A N Other as manager. 

100% agreed. Essentially, IMO, some people trust Warne to provide that, some don't 

[S8TY]

1 hour ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

Now….I often think of Max as being Carrick-esque in his role at Derby, statistically you can’t see evidence of his influence on games, doesn’t score or assist enough would be the common criticism from his doubters….and yet when he’s missing from the team we don’t do as well (our good runs this season and last have coincided with his presence in the team). 

If people look up what Carrick’s team mates and managers thought of him they’d find how highly rated he was (don’t agree with your comment he didn’t reach the highest level by the way, he won 5 premier leagues, one FA Cup and a Champions League at United, fairly impressive haul in my opinion and was a key part of the midfield chosen by arguably the greatest manager other than BC), he did the simple things that knitted the teams he played in together and allowed others to do their jobs, I think Bird is similar for us, doesn’t get the glory of scoring and assisting but facilitates others doing so.
 

If Bird is a poor as some on here are keen to point out after today I’d ask them what it is that Warne, Rosenior, Rooney, Cocu see in him? He’s clearly got something to be rated by those managers and the players he’s played with 🤷🏻‍♂️ 

It doesn’t matter what other managers might see in Bird I thought yet again he was not great today doesn’t tackle enough and doesn’t look like scoring ..he’s one of ours I get it but reality is we need more productive players in CM he definitely isn’t an attacking midfielder and I don’t see him as particularly strong as a defensive midfielder ….you can’t keep judging players by another teams interest ….what he produces for us is all that matters 

 

[Caerphilly Ram]

5 minutes ago, S8TY said:

It doesn’t matter what other managers might see in Bird I thought yet again he was not great today doesn’t tackle enough and doesn’t look like scoring ..he’s one of ours I get it but reality is we need more productive players in CM he definitely isn’t an attacking midfielder and I don’t see him as particularly strong as a defensive midfielder ….you can’t keep judging players by another teams interest ….what he produces for us is all that matters 

 

I’m not judging him by another team’s interest, I’m judging him on what I think he offers as a player in this team, which I’ve articulated, and the names I listed were all his managers at this club who picked him and spoke about the quality he offered/offers to the side. Essentially what I’m saying is I have my own opinion on what Max Bird offers to the team, and that I trust the judgement of his current and former managers that just maybe there’s something about him as a player 

[RoyMac5]

14 hours ago, VulcanRam said:

Been broadly disappointing in my opinion since we dropped to league 1. He's not helped by Warne's tactics but even so, I expected a lot more. If we can get decent money and a replacement that benefits the first team the way Warne wants to play then it's tempting. 

Is it this with some of our young players - Bird/Sibley/Thommo or Warne? We don't play through midfield, Bird's looked ordinary, Sibley looked spare and Tommo will go the same way. Sell them all and buy more wingers?

[MadAmster]

He was twice the player Hourihane was yesterday.

[Papahet]

Bird offers more than Hourihane both defensively and going forward..

Genuinely baffled what the latter actually brings to the side, ditto Korey Smith (no coincidence we go on a runs when he's out the eleven).

Unless we can prize Brannagan away from Oxford, I'd keep Bird till the Summer.

[DRBee]

2 minutes ago, Papahet said:

Bird offers more than Hourihane both defensively and going forward..

Genuinely baffled what the latter actually brings to the side, ditto Korey Smith (no coincidence we go on a runs when he's out the eleven).

Unless we can prize Brannagan away from Oxford, I'd keep Bird till the Summer.

You missed the oxford game then ??   Cos the evidence of that contradicts what you say  - how many effective balls did Hourihane deliver into the box as well as for his actual assist?

[Srg]

1 minute ago, DRBee said:

You missed the oxford game then ??   Cos the evidence of that contradicts what you say  - how many effective balls did Hourihane deliver into the box as well as for his actual assist?

Thing is, for as maligned as Sibley is, he put in a great corner yesterday and also the ball that lead to us winning the penalty - not advocating for him playing instead, just pointing out that we have others who are capable. Hourihane’s free kicks are often good, but they’re not a reason to keep someone in the team. He was a turnstile out of possession yesterday and he can’t run anymore. I think he has value to us, but not in a “must start every game” capacity as he has been doing. 

[VulcanRam]

28 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Is it this with some of our young players - Bird/Sibley/Thommo or Warne? We don't play through midfield, Bird's looked ordinary, Sibley looked spare and Tommo will go the same way. Sell them all and buy more wingers?

I don't think so. I think Thommo is perfect for a Warne team and now that he's fit I hope to see a lot more of him. Sibley is, well Sibley, he's played for four managers and can't get in the team whoever is in charge so there are clearly other day to day or training ground things there. I think at the moment he's a squad player who has value as such, but he's still young and has plenty of time to become first choice, here or elsewhere. It's something that may have to come from him though as I'd love to know what Cocu, Rooney, Rosenior and Warne all thought that saw him fail to get a regular spot. I presume there would be some consistency in their answers.

Bird is slightly different as expectations on him are higher and of the three I think is seen to be more naturally talented and capable of playing at a higher level.  

Ideally we would have a manager who plays to his strengths, which is possession based. But Warne has a four year contract and there's no sign he's going anywhere or suddenly going to change his style, so you have to ask how much of an asset Max is as he is going to be used by the current manager.  Equally, he looked good enough in the Championship to suggest he'd be a standout in League One, but in my opinion he isn't. There could be lots of reasons for this. I think our midfield is our weakest point, both defensively and creativity-wise, and you have to ask both why and what the best solution is.

[ollycutts1982]

For me, as many have also said, Bird doesn't offer enough. He doesn't show for the ball enough, he needs to watch reels of Thorne to learn how to receive the ball from the CB's on the half turn and be progressive. If you watch him he often hides and doesn't look for the space to be available for a pass. He can't tackle, he doesn't assist or score enough, he can't take a set piece and his positional sense is lacking both in and out of possession. He's a tidy passer but too often goes backwards or sideways.

What sums it up for me is that just from the last 2 games I would take Brannagan and Posh's 22 and 14 over him in a heartbeat, all offer athleticism, directness and the ability to cause he opposition problems.

Bird isn't a bad player but I think it is the usual case that if he wasn't a youth team product he wouldn't be as highly rated. Same goes with Sibley.  

[jimtastic56]

14 minutes ago, ollycutts1982 said:

For me, as many have also said, Bird doesn't offer enough. He doesn't show for the ball enough, he needs to watch reels of Thorne to learn how to receive the ball from the CB's on the half turn and be progressive. If you watch him he often hides and doesn't look for the space to be available for a pass. He can't tackle, he doesn't assist or score enough, he can't take a set piece and his positional sense is lacking both in and out of possession. He's a tidy passer but too often goes backwards or sideways.

What sums it up for me is that just from the last 2 games I would take Brannagan and Posh's 22 and 14 over him in a heartbeat, all offer athleticism, directness and the ability to cause he opposition problems.

Bird isn't a bad player but I think it is the usual case that if he wasn't a youth team product he wouldn't be as highly rated. Same goes with Sibley.  

Spot on . Rosenior wanted to play out from the back . But as the D M , Bird was not capable of taking the ball on the turn . The whole system fell apart . Can’t believe that Hull would be interested.

[Ghost of Clough]

1 hour ago, Srg said:

Thing is, for as maligned as Sibley is, he put in a great corner yesterday and also the ball that lead to us winning the penalty - not advocating for him playing instead, just pointing out that we have others who are capable. Hourihane’s free kicks are often good, but they’re not a reason to keep someone in the team. He was a turnstile out of possession yesterday and he can’t run anymore. I think he has value to us, but not in a “must start every game” capacity as he has been doing. 

Pablo Hernandez was still one of the most technically gifted players in the league when Leeds were promoted. However, Bielsa knew his legs had gone so reduced his game time to the odd start and coming on for the final 20-30 minutes. It worked, because he was putting in killer balls against defenders who were mentally and physically tired. Their attackers were also tired when he came on, so he had to make fewer recovery runs. That's the sort of role Hourihane should now have, wit the likes of Bird, Fornah, Thompson and Sibley starting games.

Edited January 2 by Ghost of Clough

[Papahet]

1 hour ago, DRBee said:

You missed the oxford game then ??   Cos the evidence of that contradicts what you say  - how many effective balls did Hourihane deliver into the box as well as for his actual assist?

How many games outside that?  You can't base his Derby success on one or two games, he's been underwhelming TBH, especially considering he's played most his career in Championship or Prem.

If NML needs resting, so does Hourihane 

[DavesaRam]

1 hour ago, RoyMac5 said:

Is it this with some of our young players - Bird/Sibley/Thommo or Warne? We don't play through midfield, Bird's looked ordinary, Sibley looked spare and Tommo will go the same way. Sell them all and buy more wingers?

As ever, in your usual forthright manner you have hit the bail on the head. It isn’t so much the players, it is the use that is being made of them. Thankfully our recent good run coincided with us playing more football instead of our sole approach being to sling the crosses in. We are using the midfield more, but the focus is still to end up with crosses. I’m sort of ok with it because the result was 25 points out of 27, but it still won’t get us seeing the best of our footballing midfielders. Maybe Bird doesn’t control matches because our tactics aren’t set up to allow him to. But if they get us promoted, so be it.

[RoyMac5]

11 minutes ago, DavesaRam said:

As ever, in your usual forthright manner you have hit the bail on the head. It isn’t so much the players, it is the use that is being made of them. Thankfully our recent good run coincided with us playing more football instead of our sole approach being to sling the crosses in. We are using the midfield more, but the focus is still to end up with crosses. I’m sort of ok with it because the result was 25 points out of 27, but it still won’t get us seeing the best of our footballing midfielders. Maybe Bird doesn’t control matches because our tactics aren’t set up to allow him to. But if they get us promoted, so be it.

I mean would Knighty have stayed if we'd had a 'proper' midfield? So be it, if you don't mind.😉 But yeah it is what it is. #COYR

[DiggerB]

1 hour ago, Srg said:

Thing is, for as maligned as Sibley is, he put in a great corner yesterday and also the ball that lead to us winning the penalty - not advocating for him playing instead, just pointing out that we have others who are capable. Hourihane’s free kicks are often good, but they’re not a reason to keep someone in the team. He was a turnstile out of possession yesterday and he can’t run anymore. I think he has value to us, but not in a “must start every game” capacity as he has been doing. 

Hence why Hourihane should stay further up the pitch if he is on from the start, and Bird deeper. Though Bird isn’t strong enough in the tackle, so we still need a central enforcer.

[Srg]

4 minutes ago, DiggerB said:

Hence why Hourihane should stay further up the pitch if he is on from the start, and Bird deeper. Though Bird isn’t strong enough in the tackle, so we still need a central enforcer.

Dont agree. Hourihane isn’t one to operate in tight spaces, he can’t drop a shoulder or anything like that. He’s better when the game is in front of him at this point.