Derby vs Leyton Orient

[europia]

23 hours ago, ram59 said:

Like Odergaard for Arsenal against Villa?

Even world class players miss easy chances, remember Collins is a lg1 player and if he was more reliable, he wouldn't be playing at this level. Having said that, he contributes all over the pitch and always puts a shift in, unlike Bielik on Friday night.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion on Collins. I accept that he's a L1 player, who does get involved, and runs around a lot. 

[norwichram]

On 10/12/2023 at 15:00, Anag Ram said:

All of his jokes come across as passive aggressive.

He should cut that out and either praise or criticise, not tease his players.

Other than that his interviews are all pretty honest.

Perfectly put @Anag Ram have thought this for a while. 
 

I love mangers and players having personality and displaying it but when PW does it I often find myself thinking why say that? Ie why say Barks scored a screamer? I know it might seem innocuous but I can’t help but think that behind the scenes he has similar traits that may not directly determine our season but I can’t help thinking a different approach (ie great to see barks get off the mark - works so hard in training/such a valuable member of the squad/reward for making g the run alongside Nat and not leaving him to it….) might provide more benefit somehow.

can’t out my finger on it .. but just simply unnecessary 

 

 

[norwichram]

On 10/12/2023 at 15:17, Caerphilly Ram said:

Warne responded to the Ramstv interviewer’s statement of “Louie Sibley opened the scoring, cracking strike” by saying;

“yeah I’m glad he scored because if he didn’t score he’d have been in deep cause he could have put Birdy in. Really pleased with Sibs, you know he had different roles if it was a 3 at the back or a 4 at the back what position he was, he was a 10 or an 8, same with the wide players they had different roles today because sometimes they attacked with a 3 the midfielder slots inside the pitch so there was a lot of information. I thought the lads dealt with that pretty well and I thought Sibs was a handful, so I was pleased for Sibs and erm yeah he was one of many of the good performers”.

Seems fairly specific praise about Sibley doing well and coping with the changing formation to me, not sure what needs to be guessed at? 

Can’t understand why it’s not a straightforward - 

“yes really pleased for Louis and what a strike it was  .. we’ve played him in various positions and he’s always worked hard for the team but obviously enjoyed playing the 10/8 today. he was a real handful today and performed well
 

great to have selection problems and it’s that attacking intent we’ve been building on which has enabled us to go  on this run supported by what is currently the best defence in the league”

 

[RodleyRam]

Quite a lot of chatter about Warne's comments about players. Are they jokes? Is it a bit of leg pulling? Is it passive aggressive? Does it point to something more toxic? 

Personally I don't see any issue with it but I get that it's not everyone's pint of Bovril. I think it points to a closeness with the players and a confidence and trust that they won't go on strike off the back of some ironic comments. He extracts the urine out of himself as much as anyone else, it's just who he is.

If the players take offense to this, I would be very surprised and I imagine they probably bounce off it as a group.

On to Warne and the improving Derby County... Like most of the pro-Warne camp I've expressed concerns about certain things we were doing that seemed to make little sense. About 5 games ago I was feeling really frustrated and I think I said I wanted to see an improvement over the next 5 games or I would be joining the ranks of serious doubters. 

As it stands we have improved with more consistency and another gear or two to go. I hope we can take that into the next 5 games, which will be tougher tests. We seem to have found different ways to win, a trait which is needed in a good promotion challenge. Hopefully we go into 2024 looking down the table beating off the chasing pack with some strong performances. Oh and let's not capitulate in February like we do every other year...

[ilkleyram]

13 minutes ago, norwichram said:

Can’t understand why it’s not a straightforward - 

“yes really pleased for Louis and what a strike it was  .. we’ve played him in various positions and he’s always worked hard for the team but obviously enjoyed playing the 10/8 today. he was a real handful today and performed well
 

great to have selection problems and it’s that attacking intent we’ve been building on which has enabled us to go  on this run supported by what is currently the best defence in the league”

 

You would have hated Sir Brian’s public comments. He might have been straightforward but he didn’t sugar coat his views in the way you suggest. Neither did his son at times. And there were fans in both eras who were critical of that despite the success that Brian in particular brought. Football, most professional sport, is a tough environment. Sink or swim.

We have, whether we like it or not, a manager who on his own admission gives wordy answers to questions, answers that are (thankfully in my view) mostly anything other than couched in football speak.  It’s a style you clearly dislike. I don’t, partly because we (and the players) get to know what he’s thinking and partly because he comes across as honest - honest in the views he expresses and honest in what he is as a person. I would bet quite a lot that he’s exactly the same in Moor Farm and at home with his family away from journalists asking daft questions just after a match. What you see is what you get.

You - players, fans, Mrs Warne - don’t have to like it and in which case move away or don’t listen. But all the good managers I’ve worked for have largely been true to themselves and their personal style, including in their public utterances.

 

[May Contain Nuts]

10 hours ago, jono said:

I just don’t think you see the full picture. L1 isn’t vastly different from the Championship. A few weaker clubs yes, some lack of consistency certainly. Yet there are good footballers in this league, many of whom would prosper in the championship. Those few percentage points that move you from average to serious contender are very small. Add in that many of our signings that were “designed” for PW’s vision had injuries and left us both thin on the ground in numbers and having to adopt a compromised style. It hasn’t been an easy ride. There isn’t a huge cheque book, 25k every week a saying we are DCFC also doesn’t cut it when there are 11 strong men in the opposing half who are busting a gut to put one on us.

This is sport, we are in our roller coaster car with all its dints and scratches. I am just enjoying the competition and thank goodness we are at the very least a competitive group. My attitude would be different if we were below half way … but we aren’t . I seriously doubt there is a manager out there who would guarantee any team promotion with the obvious strictures they would be under given our current level of strength and stability. This isn’t happy clappy this is competition, reality, oh and support.

Not sure you can get much more patronising than claiming someone can't see the full picture just because you disagree with them.  

Nothing in your post seems to be based on what's actually playing out in front of us, it's pretty much a list of theories, preconceptions and excuses without any substance or analysis behind them.

"11 strong men..." Sorry, what? Are we playing with our U12s? "...busting a gut to put one on us". -  in theory true but it's not what we've actually come up against in the vast majority of matches.

"It hasn't been an easy ride"... it has been pretty easy actually. Especially this season with 3 very good teams removed and 2 would-be competitors suffering points deductions and ongoing ownership issues.

"There isn't a higher cheque book" - no but there's more than most teams have and a promotion level budget. 

"25k a week saying we are Derby..." - Oh please, my posts haven't said anything of the sort. Making out my view is based on us having the name Derby County and a lot of fans is again patronising and insulting.

"the obvious structures they would be under given our current level of strength and stability" - which is pretty damn good, just because we came from a bad place doesn't mean we're currently in one and have to pretend we're this meek little things who shouldn't expect to compete from promotion.

There's nothing wrong with the structure Warne is working under, he's got more than enough at his disposal to get us promoted and we're told that his only remit is getting us up so his use of the academy can't be brought into discussions, and the Chairman is on record as saying he has patience with him and would understand even if he does somehow fail to get us promoted. He's got it bloody easy and there's no reason to think another manager couldn't at least match what he's done.

"many if our signings were designed for Warne's vision"... which was to play with a back 3 with Bradley at the heart of it. Thank god for injuries, quite frankly. It's debatable whether we'd even have signed Niambe had they not happened. Our "compromised style" as you put it has been key to some of our better performances both last season and this. When most of the injured players have played they've looked no better than what we have as 'backups'.

"This isn't happy clapping. It's reality. It's support" - the patronising b******* goes on.

[Crewton]

15 minutes ago, May Contain Nuts said:

Not sure you can get much more patronising than claiming someone can't see the full picture just because you disagree with them.  

Nothing in your post seems to be based on what's actually playing out in front of us, it's pretty much a list of theories, preconceptions and excuses without any substance or analysis behind them.

"11 strong men..." Sorry, what? Are we playing with our U12s? "...busting a gut to put one on us". -  in theory true but it's not what we've actually come up against in the vast majority of matches.

"It hasn't been an easy ride"... it has been pretty easy actually. Especially this season with 3 very good teams removed and 2 would-be competitors suffering points deductions and ongoing ownership issues.

"There isn't a higher cheque book" - no but there's more than most teams have and a promotion level budget. 

"25k a week saying we are Derby..." - Oh please, my posts haven't said anything of the sort. Making out my view is based on us having the name Derby County and a lot of fans is again patronising and insulting.

"the obvious structures they would be under given our current level of strength and stability" - which is pretty damn good, just because we came from a bad place doesn't mean we're currently in one and have to pretend we're this meek little things who shouldn't expect to compete from promotion.

There's nothing wrong with the structure Warne is working under, he's got more than enough at his disposal to get us promoted and we're told that his only remit is getting us up so his use of the academy can't be brought into discussions, and the Chairman is on record as saying he has patience with him and would understand even if he does somehow fail to get us promoted. He's got it bloody easy and there's no reason to think another manager couldn't at least match what he's done.

"many if our signings were designed for Warne's vision"... which was to play with a back 3 with Bradley at the heart of it. Thank god for injuries, quite frankly. It's debatable whether we'd even have signed Niambe had they not happened. Our "compromised style" as you put it has been key to some of our better performances both last season and this. When most of the injured players have played they've looked no better than what we have as 'backups'.

"This isn't happy clapping. It's reality. It's support" - the patronising b******* goes on.

You'll struggle to find anyone who didn't think Bradley was a good signing at the time. The edgy performances that have marred his time at DCFC so far are hard to explain from his past record and reputation, so claiming now that Warne's intentions were misguided is pure hindsight.

It's true though that we probably hadn't planned to sign Nyambe until the injuries hit, but nor would we have been able to in the transfer window because at the time he wasn't interested in playing in L1. 

[Tyler Durden]

16 hours ago, sage said:

Got any examples of Warne supporters being abused on here?

Just think about what you're saying here....any "abuse" will be deleted by the mods so it's pretty much impossible to cite any such examples from the forum or by definition it wouldn't be abusive.

Happy to DM you some examples of abusive comments aimed at myself which subsequently were deleted by the mods together with the offending forum member as I really don't want to start naming folks on here and stir up another hornets nest.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Tyler Durden

[sage]

3 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

Just think about what you're saying here....any "abuse" will be deleted by the mods so it's pretty much impossible to cite any such examples from the forum or by definition it wouldn't be abusive.

Happy to DM you some examples of abusive comments aimed at myself which subsequently were deleted by the mods together with the offending forum member as I really don't want to start naming folks on here and stir up another hornets nest.

Personal abuse is deleted. As it should. I was referring to general abuse. I am convinced that those supporting Warne have been ruder than those who aren't convinced. My main issue is any form of criticism of Warne was labelled a 'hater'.  

[Tyler Durden]

4 minutes ago, sage said:

Personal abuse is deleted. As it should. I was referring to general abuse. I am convinced that those supporting Warne have been ruder than those who aren't convinced. My main issue is any form of criticism of Warne was labelled a 'hater'.  

I think we're delving into the realms of semantics again as another poster has already commented on, abuse is abuse.

I can only refer you to the abusive comments directed at myself which were subsequently deleted by the mods, quite rightly too as you said. 

[Caerphilly Ram]

18 minutes ago, sage said:

Personal abuse is deleted. As it should. I was referring to general abuse. I am convinced that those supporting Warne have been ruder than those who aren't convinced. My main issue is any form of criticism of Warne was labelled a 'hater'.  

There are examples of ridicule, condescension, dismissive comments and superior behaviour from posters in any and all camps on this forum over the last few months, the examples are there if you go looking on Warne in/Warne out threads, matchday threads and the like. And there are examples of well reasoned arguments and concerns being raised by people on either side of the Warne debate as well as those in the middle.

Generalised phrases such as Haters/Happy Clappers/Blind Faithers/Moaners/Head in the sand/Impatient have been volunteered by many posters, some may regret what they’ve said and others may stand by it. There’s been division on here and among the fan base because we’re all passionate about the team we support and have strong views on that front. 
 

Hopefully the continued upturn in form sees further reduction in that division, with people on either side of the fence getting what they want which is the success of the team….now if only he’d play the damned kids eh?! 😉 

[May Contain Nuts]

2 hours ago, Crewton said:

You'll struggle to find anyone who didn't think Bradley was a good signing at the time. The edgy performances that have marred his time at DCFC so far are hard to explain from his past record and reputation, so claiming now that Warne's intentions were misguided is pure hindsight.

It's true though that we probably hadn't planned to sign Nyambe until the injuries hit, but nor would we have been able to in the transfer window because at the time he wasn't interested in playing in L1. 

I agree he looked a good signing on paper but it became immediately obvious that he wasn't suited to the role, not in the way we set up as a team anyway

Nethertheless we keep trying to shoehorn him into it, so it's clearly something he's eager to implement, even with the benefit of hindsight.

Every time we look worse defensively for it. Fortunately most of the time we've managed to get away it (although It cost us a victory against Portsmouth and contributed massively to the loss against Oxford, and very nearly lead to us throwing away the Bristol game befoire NML saved us) because the opposition don't/can't capitaise on the extra space and impetus it gives them. Granted there are times when letting the opposition come at us has allowed us to breakaway and score - but I doubt that is the main intention of the tactic.

That still doesn't mean it's a good tactic, or that Warne's vision wasn't flawed - he should, after all, know a lot more about his potential signings than the fans -  or that the injuries didn't unexpectedly benefit us in some way.

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by May Contain Nuts

[On the Ram Page]

3 hours ago, May Contain Nuts said:

Not sure you can get much more patronising than claiming someone can't see the full picture just because you disagree with them.  

Nothing in your post seems to be based on what's actually playing out in front of us, it's pretty much a list of theories, preconceptions and excuses without any substance or analysis behind them.

"11 strong men..." Sorry, what? Are we playing with our U12s? "...busting a gut to put one on us". -  in theory true but it's not what we've actually come up against in the vast majority of matches.

"It hasn't been an easy ride"... it has been pretty easy actually. Especially this season with 3 very good teams removed and 2 would-be competitors suffering points deductions and ongoing ownership issues.

"There isn't a higher cheque book" - no but there's more than most teams have and a promotion level budget. 

"25k a week saying we are Derby..." - Oh please, my posts haven't said anything of the sort. Making out my view is based on us having the name Derby County and a lot of fans is again patronising and insulting.

"the obvious structures they would be under given our current level of strength and stability" - which is pretty damn good, just because we came from a bad place doesn't mean we're currently in one and have to pretend we're this meek little things who shouldn't expect to compete from promotion.

There's nothing wrong with the structure Warne is working under, he's got more than enough at his disposal to get us promoted and we're told that his only remit is getting us up so his use of the academy can't be brought into discussions, and the Chairman is on record as saying he has patience with him and would understand even if he does somehow fail to get us promoted. He's got it bloody easy and there's no reason to think another manager couldn't at least match what he's done.

"many if our signings were designed for Warne's vision"... which was to play with a back 3 with Bradley at the heart of it. Thank god for injuries, quite frankly. It's debatable whether we'd even have signed Niambe had they not happened. Our "compromised style" as you put it has been key to some of our better performances both last season and this. When most of the injured players have played they've looked no better than what we have as 'backups'.

"This isn't happy clapping. It's reality. It's support" - the patronising b******* goes on.

Wow, Jono’s really got under your skin hasn’t he! I agree with most of what he says. It is you with the theories, preconceptions without providing any evidence or sensible arguments, just your own bias against the manager.

[May Contain Nuts]

45 minutes ago, On the Ram Page said:

Wow, Jono’s really got under your skin hasn’t he! I agree with most of what he says. It is you with the theories, preconceptions without providing any evidence or sensible arguments, just your own bias against the manager.

I know you'd rather any voicing any sort of criticism about the manager should just shut up and be silent, and that anyone not fully on board with Warne is prime to be ganged up on and dismssed as some sort of imbecile, but If someone replies to me in a condesending tone I have every right to answer the point this out and try to address the points they've made.

Replying to someone doesn't mean they've got under your skin - It's a message board for discussing all things Derby County (and beyond), from all sides of the argument afterall, not an echo chamber, and It would be rude to just ignore the post.

Simply trying to turn my own argument against me shows that you don't really have anything of value to add, and can't actually dispute the things I've said, for which, despite your claim, is all evidence based.

Edited December 12, 2023 by May Contain Nuts

[On the Ram Page]

21 minutes ago, May Contain Nuts said:

I know you'd rather any voicing any sort of criticism about the manager should just shut up and be silent, and that anyone not fully on board with Warne is prime to be ganged up on and dismssed as some sort of imbecile, but If someone replies to me in a condesending tone I have every right to answer the point this out and try to address the points they've made.

Replying to someone doesn't mean they've got under your skin - It's a message board for discussing all things Derby County (and beyond), from all sides of the argument afterall, not an echo chamber, and It would be rude to just ignore the post.

Simply trying to turn my own argument against me shows that you don't really have anything of value to add, and can't actually dispute the things I've said, for which, despite your claim, is all evidence based.

Very happy for you to have your views but don’t take the view that you are factually correct, when you provide no evidence to support the argument. Give me the facts (not your opinion) of your case and we can have a decent conversation. “It’s just worse this season than last”  - by which you mean?

[May Contain Nuts]

17 minutes ago, On the Ram Page said:

Very happy for you to have your views but don’t take the view that you are factually correct, when you provide no evidence to support the argument. Give me the facts (not your opinion) of your case and we can have a decent conversation. “It’s just worse this season than last”  - by which you mean?

Where did I say I was factually correct? I've stated that my view is based on things I see happening in front of me rather than vague and broad statements that don't seem to be backed up being what's presented on the pitch.

All my opinions were quantified and backed up in the initial post - the 'worse than last season' comment owing to the quality of teams going up being higher than that of those coming down coupled with points deductions for two of the relegated teams for example - so I'm not going to repeat myself when you've already either ignored or dismissed what I've said.

Edited December 12, 2023 by May Contain Nuts

[YorkshireRam]

We go 5 wins in a row and suddenly the 'Warne-Out'ers are literally nitpicking semantics over his interviews as there's nothing else to criticise, and now developing victim complexes about the ''abuse'' they received. 

I'm not saying this didn't happen but it's kind of funny to see the rhetoric so dramatically shift 😂

[May Contain Nuts]

30 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said:

We go 5 wins in a row and suddenly the 'Warne-Out'ers are literally nitpicking semantics over his interviews as there's nothing else to criticise, and now developing victim complexes about the ''abuse'' they received. 

I'm not saying this didn't happen but it's kind of funny to see the rhetoric so dramatically shift 😂

I know this is all a bit "well he started it", but...

You do realise the conversation came up (again) because someone (CongletonRam) started playing the victim and calling 'abuse' on behalf of the 'Warne in' camp, right?

...and the only example put forward of a 'Warne out' poster being potentially abusive towards another was in response soneone calling them "a joke' and 'an absolute fool' with 'no idea what you're talking about', asking them 'are you really that stupid' and terming other people who shared his opinion as 'morons'? Lovely, respectful stuff there.

I'm not really sure what rhetoric you think has shifted, this s*** has been going on for months, long before any turn in form. 🤣

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by May Contain Nuts

[YorkshireRam]

Just now, May Contain Nuts said:

You do realise the conversation came up (again) because someone (CongletonRam) started playing the victim and calling abuse on behalf of the 'Warne in' camp, right?

...and the only example put forward of a 'Warne out' poster being potentially abusive towards another was in response soneone calling them "a joke' and 'an absolute fool' with 'no idea what you're talking about', asking them 'are you really that stupid' and terming other people who sharted his opinion as 'morons'? Lovely, respectful stuff there.

I'm not really sure what rhetoric you think has shifted, this s*** has been going on for months, long before any turn in form. 🤣

 

In all honesty, I've not seen much abuse either way. Again, not saying it's not happened, just I haven't seen it. Realistically, if we can continue this form, it should serve as a unifying force, as ultimately, we all want to see Derby do well. Anything kicking off now is likely just a bit of a storm in a teacup.

Anyone that vocally called for Warne to be sacked probably feels a bit sheepish (pun fully intended) at the moment as those comments now seem a tad short-sighted. I think fans who were ambivalent but disagreed with the negativity kind of got pushed unwittingly into the 'Warne In' camp, just as his success would validate their calls for patience- which has happened.

Both of these sides will settle down now, especially if we keep winning. Ironically it's like Warne often says about things not being entirely perfect, nor dismal; it's nearly always somewhere in the middle. 

 

[May Contain Nuts]

8 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said:

In all honesty, I've not seen much abuse either way. Again, not saying it's not happened, just I haven't seen it. Realistically, if we can continue this form, it should serve as a unifying force, as ultimately, we all want to see Derby do well. Anything kicking off now is likely just a bit of a storm in a teacup.

Anyone that vocally called for Warne to be sacked probably feels a bit sheepish (pun fully intended) at the moment as those comments now seem a tad short-sighted. I think fans who were ambivalent but disagreed with the negativity kind of got pushed unwittingly into the 'Warne In' camp, just as his success would validate their calls for patience- which has happened.

Both of these sides will settle down now, especially if we keep winning. Ironically it's like Warne often says about things not being entirely perfect, nor dismal; it's nearly always somewhere in the middle. 

 

I think that's a fair post overall.

The thing is though most of the anti-Warne comments are about his long term impact, so I'm not sure why a good run would or should see them feeling sheepish. They're not the ones showing short sightedness - it's those judging Warne purely on whether we go up or not who are doing that.

There's a heck of a lot left to prove and even promotion doesn't / wouldn't change that. Promotion for many is the minimum expectation, it's hitting par, anything else is a bogey - it's not something we're just hopeful might happen. If Warne gets us up and keeps us up he'll have done well. Until then the jury will remain out. Promotion followed by relegation would prove the critics correct.

I share your hope that both sides may settle down, but I think the chances of it are quite slim when there's already an increasing number of posters weaponising our positive form.