Derby vs Leyton Orient

[Tyler Durden]

20 minutes ago, May Contain Nuts said:

I think that's a fair post overall.

The thing is though most of the anti-Warne comments are about his long term impact, so I'm not sure why a good run would or should see them feeling sheepish. They're not the ones showing short sightedness - it's those judging Warne purely on whether we go up or not who are doing that.

There's a heck of a lot left to prove and even promotion doesn't / wouldn't change that. Promotion for many is the minimum expectation, it's hitting par, anything else is a bogey - it's not something we're just hopeful might happen. If Warne gets us up and keeps us up he'll have done well. Until then the jury will remain out. Promotion followed by relegation would prove the critics correct.

I share your hope that both sides may settle down, but I think the chances of it are quite slim when there's already an increasing number of posters weaponising our positive form.

As @sage would say show me the latest polling numbers from all Derby fans with the breakdown of how many expect promotion this season as a minimum.

I've always said that a finish outside of the Top 6 would be a failure as have other forum members but then you tout your own opinion as fact by saying that the jury remains out and Warne will only have done well if he gets us promoted and keeps us up - again point me to the poll of Derby fans making this statement?

The back and forth will only settle down as you state when posts like these disappear from the forum, simple as, and it's the main reason I've been absent from here for so long.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Tyler Durden

[sage]

3 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

As @sage would say show me the latest polling numbers from all Derby fans with the breakdown of how many expect promotion this season as a minimum.

I've always said that a finish outside of the Top 6 would be a failure as have other forum members but then you tout your own opinion as fact by saying that the jury remains out and Warne will only have done well if he gets us promoted and keeps us up - again point me to the poll of Derby fans making this statement?

The back and forth will only settle down as you state when posts like these disappear from the forum, simple as, and it's the main reason I've been absent from here for so long.

Come on @May Contain Nuts 

[On the Ram Page]

22 minutes ago, May Contain Nuts said:

I think that's a fair post overall.

The thing is though most of the anti-Warne comments are about his long term impact, so I'm not sure why a good run would or should see them feeling sheepish. They're not the ones showing short sightedness - it's those judging Warne purely on whether we go up or not who are doing that.

There's a heck of a lot left to prove and even promotion doesn't / wouldn't change that. Promotion for many is the minimum expectation, it's hitting par, anything else is a bogey - it's not something we're just hopeful might happen. If Warne gets us up and keeps us up he'll have done well. Until then the jury will remain out. Promotion followed by relegation would prove the critics correct.

I share your hope that both sides may settle down, but I think the chances of it are quite slim when there's already an increasing number of posters weaponising our positive form.

So, May Contain Nuts, what is it you have seen which makes you doubt that, if promoted, we will not be able to able to achieve stability in the Championship (which was is David Clowes 5 year objective) ? So are you saying if we get promoted this season and we do not get relegated the following season, then Warne will have done well?

I think, if we get promoted we will be able to recruit some better players (ability, aggression, pace etc etc) which will give us a better chance of stablising ourselves. So are you basing your view on the fact that we will still have the same players or that we (Warne) will not be able to play differently (tactically) in the Championship. I am very interested to know.

[Tyler Durden]

26 minutes ago, sage said:

Come on @May Contain Nuts 

Rookie error I know 

[Returning ram]

58 minutes ago, May Contain Nuts said:

I think that's a fair post overall.

The thing is though most of the anti-Warne comments are about his long term impact, so I'm not sure why a good run would or should see them feeling sheepish. They're not the ones showing short sightedness - it's those judging Warne purely on whether we go up or not who are doing that.

There's a heck of a lot left to prove and even promotion doesn't / wouldn't change that. Promotion for many is the minimum expectation, it's hitting par, anything else is a bogey - it's not something we're just hopeful might happen. If Warne gets us up and keeps us up he'll have done well. Until then the jury will remain out. Promotion followed by relegation would prove the critics correct.

I share your hope that both sides may settle down, but I think the chances of it are quite slim when there's already an increasing number of posters weaponising our positive form.

Only recently you wrote "The only way Warne even begins to be a success as the manager or Head Coach of Derby County is if he secures us a promotion"

Thats all he can achieve at the moment, anything else is an unfair KPI to level at him given he isn't even in that position. 
 

If as you said he gets promoted this season, he is successful in his job to date, you can only take one step at a time.

[Wignall12]

1 hour ago, On the Ram Page said:

So, May Contain Nuts, what is it you have seen which makes you doubt that, if promoted, we will not be able to able to achieve stability in the Championship (which was is David Clowes 5 year objective) ? So are you saying if we get promoted this season and we do not get relegated the following season, then Warne will have done well?

I think, if we get promoted we will be able to recruit some better players (ability, aggression, pace etc etc) which will give us a better chance of stablising ourselves. So are you basing your view on the fact that we will still have the same players or that we (Warne) will not be able to play differently (tactically) in the Championship. I am very interested to know.

May contain nuts ? .....half the posts on here are written by them ! ....🥰🤣🤣

[DavesaRam]

2 hours ago, YorkshireRam said:

We go 5 wins in a row and suddenly the 'Warne-Out'ers are literally nitpicking semantics over his interviews as there's nothing else to criticise, and now developing victim complexes about the ''abuse'' they received. 

I'm not saying this didn't happen but it's kind of funny to see the rhetoric so dramatically shift 😂

The main shift has been Paul Warne realising that endlessly crossing balls into orbit doesn’t work. Whether he and his team have observed and made the right conclusions, or whether they have listened to the criticism which was hurled at them doesn’t really matter. What does matter is that we have seen changes happen, and we are beginning to see the type of football we should be seeing, and it works. Of course it could be that the change has happened because players who have been unavailable to us are now back in the fold, but fact is the ball keeps coming into the possession of the midfielders, we are starting to play st ground level and we are getting people into the penalty more than we used to.

Things are starting to look good!

[CongletonRam]

3 hours ago, YorkshireRam said:

We go 5 wins in a row and suddenly the 'Warne-Out'ers are literally nitpicking semantics over his interviews as there's nothing else to criticise, and now developing victim complexes about the ''abuse'' they received. 

I'm not saying this didn't happen but it's kind of funny to see the rhetoric so dramatically shift 😂

Couldn't agree more YR.

I actually think many of them are disappointed the results have picked up as now they have no reason to want the man out. It's pathetic; but also quite funny.

[HorsforthRam]

35 minutes ago, DavesaRam said:

The main shift has been Paul Warne realising that endlessly crossing balls into orbit doesn’t work. Whether he and his team have observed and made the right conclusions, or whether they have listened to the criticism which was hurled at them doesn’t really matter. What does matter is that we have seen changes happen, and we are beginning to see the type of football we should be seeing, and it works. Of course it could be that the change has happened because players who have been unavailable to us are now back in the fold, but fact is the ball keeps coming into the possession of the midfielders, we are starting to play st ground level and we are getting people into the penalty more than we used to.

Things are starting to look good!

Somewhat agree. As I said after the game, it still feels we lose possession very cheaply and struggle for sustained control of a game. 

[HorsforthRam]

27 minutes ago, CongletonRam said:

Couldn't agree more YR.

I actually think many of them are disappointed the results have picked up as now they have no reason to want the man out. It's pathetic; but also quite funny.

I guess this is the type of antagonistic post being talked about on some parts of this thread. “Think” something about other posters and then call it “pathetic”. Oh dear. 

[CongletonRam]

2 minutes ago, HorsforthRam said:

I guess this is the type of antagonistic post being talked about on some parts of this thread. “Think” something about other posters and then call it “pathetic”. Oh dear. 

I stand by what I said. Nitpicking semantics over his interviews  and now developing victim complexes about the ''abuse' is pathetic.

It's also unfair and bordering on bullying.

[LeedsCityRam]

2 hours ago, On the Ram Page said:

So, May Contain Nuts, what is it you have seen which makes you doubt that, if promoted, we will not be able to able to achieve stability in the Championship (which was is David Clowes 5 year objective) ? So are you saying if we get promoted this season and we do not get relegated the following season, then Warne will have done well?

I think, if we get promoted we will be able to recruit some better players (ability, aggression, pace etc etc) which will give us a better chance of stablising ourselves. So are you basing your view on the fact that we will still have the same players or that we (Warne) will not be able to play differently (tactically) in the Championship. I am very interested to know.

Warne's record at Championship level (including a decent start to last season) is Played 129 Won 26 Drew 34 Lost 69 - that works out at a mere 0.87 points per game, which stacks out given he relegated Rotherham 3 times from that division.

You may counter with 'well, its Rotherham....small club, small budget etc' to which I would add that either side of Warne's reign, Steve Evans, Neil Warnock & Matt Taylor all kept Rotherham up in the 3 seasons they were in charge. Its abundantly clear why people have good reason to have long term doubts about Paul Warne.

What makes you think that if we go up Warne would be able to stabilise us in the Championship?

[On the Ram Page]

1 hour ago, DavesaRam said:

The main shift has been Paul Warne realising that endlessly crossing balls into orbit doesn’t work. Whether he and his team have observed and made the right conclusions, or whether they have listened to the criticism which was hurled at them doesn’t really matter. What does matter is that we have seen changes happen, and we are beginning to see the type of football we should be seeing, and it works. Of course it could be that the change has happened because players who have been unavailable to us are now back in the fold, but fact is the ball keeps coming into the possession of the midfielders, we are starting to play st ground level and we are getting people into the penalty more than we used to.

Things are starting to look good!

Or it could just be that the players are now doing what has been asked of them all along!

[Wolfie20]

23 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Warne's record at Championship level (including a decent start to last season) is Played 129 Won 26 Drew 34 Lost 69 - that works out at a mere 0.87 points per game, which stacks out given he relegated Rotherham 3 times from that division.

You may counter with 'well, its Rotherham....small club, small budget etc' to which I would add that either side of Warne's reign, Steve Evans, Neil Warnock & Matt Taylor all kept Rotherham up in the 3 seasons they were in charge. Its abundantly clear why people have good reason to have long term doubts about Paul Warne.

What makes you think that if we go up Warne would be able to stabilise us in the Championship?

To be honest I'm more interested in his record at the level we're currently at which if I'm not mistaken shows his teams averaging 1.8 points per game. If and when we get back into the Championship and if Warne is still our manager, I will reserve judgement until then, rather than go into a new season with a pessimistic level of expectation.

[On the Ram Page]

12 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Warne's record at Championship level (including a decent start to last season) is Played 129 Won 26 Drew 34 Lost 69 - that works out at a mere 0.87 points per game, which stacks out given he relegated Rotherham 3 times from that division.

You may counter with 'well, its Rotherham....small club, small budget etc' to which I would add that either side of Warne's reign, Steve Evans, Neil Warnock & Matt Taylor all kept Rotherham up in the 3 seasons they were in charge. Its abundantly clear why people have good reason to have long term doubts about Paul Warne.

What makes you think that if we go up Warne would be able to stabilise us in the Championship?

I don’t know that he would but I am full of hope that we will continue to keep improving. Warne has been relegated 3 times with Rotherham as you state, the first time having taken over in November. They did return at the first attempt which is rare. The 3rd time they were relegated was under COVID. You are going back along way quoted Steve Evans who left in 2015 after 3 years in charge. I do think you are picking facts out which are not particularly relevant.

I have little doubt that Derby would be a bigger attraction to new players than Rotherham would have been, with due respect to them. I take it from your comment that you don’t agree!

You may be proved to be right but could just as easily be wrong - only time will tell. I have some optimism that we keep on improving. I do not go round every day thinking the worst is going to happen, but if it does you deal with it then. I take it you would have sacked Alex Ferguson when Man U were relegated - what a mistake that would have been. Try and enjoy it while we are doing better and who knows what will happen!!! Managers can also improve with experience. He has only 7 year’s experience as a Manager, so 3 promotions is pretty good going.

 

[Blondest Goat]

55 minutes ago, CongletonRam said:

I stand by what I said. Nitpicking semantics over his interviews  and now developing victim complexes about the ''abuse' is pathetic.

It's also unfair and bordering on bullying.

Your lack of self-awareness is staggering.   

[Mucker1884]

Is it ok if I take my post from the Port Vale matchday thread, and move it to here?

Hope nobody minds!  👀

 

Quote

#Worst post-victory matchday thread chit chat ever.

 

 

[LeedsCityRam]

25 minutes ago, Wolfie20 said:

To be honest I'm more interested in his record at the level we're currently at which if I'm not mistaken shows his teams averaging 1.8 points per game. If and when we get back into the Championship and if Warne is still our manager, I will reserve judgement until then, rather than go into a new season with a pessimistic level of expectation.

That's a reasonable viewpoint to have but the original point was about whether those not backing Warne felt sheepish given our recent run of form. Some fans (myself included) don't feel a short term run of results is going to prove whether Warne is successful or not and that a longer term appraisal of his performance is necessary.

 

24 minutes ago, On the Ram Page said:

I don’t know that he would but I am full of hope that we will continue to keep improving. Warne has been relegated 3 times with Rotherham as you state, the first time having taken over in November. They did return at the first attempt which is rare. The 3rd time they were relegated was under COVID. You are going back along way quoted Steve Evans who left in 2015 after 3 years in charge. I do think you are picking facts out which are not particularly relevant.

I have little doubt that Derby would be a bigger attraction to new players than Rotherham would have been, with due respect to them. I take it from your comment that you don’t agree!

You may be proved to be right but could just as easily be wrong - only time will tell. I have some optimism that we keep on improving. I do not go round every day thinking the worst is going to happen, but if it does you deal with it then. I take it you would have sacked Alex Ferguson when Man U were relegated - what a mistake that would have been. Try and enjoy it while we are doing better and who knows what will happen!!! Managers can also improve with experience. He has only 7 year’s experience as a Manager, so 3 promotions is pretty good going.

 

I think you're basing your belief on faith rather than the evidence. I don't disagree that managers can improve with experience but the fact Warne was relegated 3 times with Rotherham doesn't suggest he particularly learnt lessons from the first 2 occasions.

I will certainly enjoy the better results and genuinely hope we do go up automatically. Just because I don't especially rate Warne doesn't mean I won't be backing the team or relishing success. 

Just FYI, Ferguson never relegated Man Utd or was even close to doing so. His record at a previous club (Aberdeen) was also far superior to Warne's achievements.

Edited December 12, 2023 by LeedsCityRam

[May Contain Nuts]

3 hours ago, sage said:

Come on @May Contain Nuts 

I've had a think about it over the 2 and a half hours it took me to get home from Rotherham and when running round like a blue arsed fly to get myself back out the house and to the pub for darts, and I've decided that...

..sorry, someone is going to have to jump in my stead because I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in entering into any kind of discourse with Tyler either today or at any time in the future. Ideally I wouldn't even have to register or acknowledge his presence.

[May Contain Nuts]

As for the rest, apologies I'm not ignoring the posts just haven't had time to respond them.

After a quick read it seems my opinions have been perfectly put by other posters stepping into the breach so thanks to them. For the benefit of doubt the reason I don't think Warne is right for the long term is that, even though the quality of players may change, the simplicity of the tactical approach and lack of tactical intelligence is unlikely to do so, and I don't feel he's putting anything in place  that provides a stable basis for ongoing improvement, and I feel he's more interested in looking after his own skin than he is looking at the best interests of the club long term.

I acknowledge that it's one step at a time, however I just don't think it's unfair to critically assess the chances of him fulfilling the criteria laid out by the chairman for us to become an 'established' in the Championship club, simply because we aren't in that league yet. I find the idea that we'll cross that bridge when we come to it an incredibly short term view.

At every point, I've maintained my belief that Paul Warne absolutely will get us promoted, but we have hired a promotion expert, given him a good budget with more backing to come. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that getting promoted is the easy part of his job. Given his credentials and out resources  it should be straightforward for him  - and that is just an opinion, before someone else tried to accuse me of stating opinions as facts, but one I feel is backed up by the reality of our situation and the standard of the league this season.

Unfortunately one or two still seem utterly intent on showing their true colours and proving everything I've said about the attitude to people who aren't convinced by Warne to be true. As someone else said, the lack of self awareness (especially by anyone crying bully) is magnificent in its hypocrisy.

Edited December 12, 2023 by May Contain Nuts