Derby County Versus Crewe Alexandra - Match Day Thread - ( FA Cup 1st Rd Replay )

[BaianoPOTY98]

18 minutes ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

Agree with this mostly but I’d say a lot of teams are inconsistent early season before the successful ones get it together. We were at crisis point after Stevenage in the eyes of some (quite a few) fans, from giving Warne the benefit of the doubt I was questioning him and I do have serious reservations about if he is the right man long term. However Clowes gave him the dreaded vote of confidence and since then we’ve improved home performances significantly since and Barnsley was arguably the best performance under Warne. I don’t therefore think we should use the cup tie with Crewe as the barometer of where we’re at, he’s given himself breathing space with the Northampton and Barnsley win in particular, he wins the next 2 he’s building that winning run reminiscent of last season which most agree he needs to keep his job into January and to the end of the season (in the eyes of fans not Clowes who is the ultimate decision maker). Poor results in the next 2-3 league games which are all very winnable then I’ll start seriously questioning him again and fan pressure will start to build and quite rightly.

If the Barnsley game was the best performance under Warne then we’ve still got a long way to go, up until the 35th minute and penalty I thought we were average at best. But even so we go into our next home game (cup game I know but it’s still a good game to win to keep up momentum) against lower league opponents and get royally beaten. This has been the same all season, we win one and think we’re turning the corner then wham we’re back to square one! Now you can blame the players and rightly so, but ultimately it’s the manager that picks those players and he is the one that’s reluctant to change those players that are not performing week in week out!

[SKRam]

58 minutes ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

I never actually saw the team sheet and missed the subs so assumed he was away with NI again. If he was on the bench then only strengthens the observation he should use the squad better, that’s poor from Warne. 

I thought it was only the knights who said Ni 

[Chellaston Ram]

23 minutes ago, BaianoPOTY98 said:

If the Barnsley game was the best performance under Warne then we’ve still got a long way to go, up until the 35th minute and penalty I thought we were average at best. But even so we go into our next home game (cup game I know but it’s still a good game to win to keep up momentum) against lower league opponents and get royally beaten. This has been the same all season, we win one and think we’re turning the corner then wham we’re back to square one! Now you can blame the players and rightly so, but ultimately it’s the manager that picks those players and he is the one that’s reluctant to change those players that are not performing week in week out!

If the current players can’t perform consistently then try a few of the academy lads , this can’t continue to go on

[Kathcairns]

2 hours ago, Tamworthram said:

Ironic how you’re accusing me of trying to re-interpret what you said and then can find no other interpretation for “taking responsibility” other than “not trying”. You do know that someone can try hard but still not do very well don’t you?

To try and end this conversation perhaps I should remind you that all I said originally is that I suspect there is probably an element of shared responsibility. I.e. Warne got things wrong and continues to do so but the players also make mistakes and play badly from time to time that you can’t always pin on the coaching they receive or the style of play they’re being asked to play. 

Dont know why you bother arguing with him, he only agrees with one point of view, his own.

[Tamworthram]

33 minutes ago, BaianoPOTY98 said:

If the Barnsley game was the best performance under Warne then we’ve still got a long way to go, up until the 35th minute and penalty I thought we were average at best. But even so we go into our next home game (cup game I know but it’s still a good game to win to keep up momentum) against lower league opponents and get royally beaten. This has been the same all season, we win one and think we’re turning the corner then wham we’re back to square one! Now you can blame the players and rightly so, but ultimately it’s the manager that picks those players and he is the one that’s reluctant to change those players that are not performing week in week out!

“Average at best” seems a bit harsh to me. I remember saying to the person next to me that it was looking like an entertaining 0:0 draw. Not because we were average but simply because it looked like two evenly matched teams cancelling each other out. You do have to take into account the quality of the opposition and whilst we didn’t allow them to play their finest game, they’re in the top 6 for a reason and of course, prior to Saturday, hadn’t lost on the road and only conceded 3 goals away from home.

[FlyBritishMidland]

2 hours ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

 

Is that normally how it works? Football management seems a bit of an anomaly in that it almost always is the manager who pays the price, yet in all other organisations I’ve worked in both in the public and private sector, a poor performing employee is given every opportunity to improve and if they persist with their underperformance they are more often than not managed out of the business or repurposed into a different role, it’s rarely been a manager that’s sacked despite their supposed accountability. I’ve always found in the real world as opposed to the football world that poo rolls downhill. 
This is more an observation on football management versus other industries than a specific observation on Warne. 
I guess in football the players are a business asset and less disposable than perhaps employees in the broader sense of other industries 🤔 

I get what you mean but I see it a little differently.  The way I translate it is a football manager/head coach is a bit like a head of department in a business.   If that department, as a collective, isn’t performing then it’s the head who gets replaced.

[Tyler Durden]

2 hours ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

 

Is that normally how it works? Football management seems a bit of an anomaly in that it almost always is the manager who pays the price, yet in all other organisations I’ve worked in both in the public and private sector, a poor performing employee is given every opportunity to improve and if they persist with their underperformance they are more often than not managed out of the business or repurposed into a different role, it’s rarely been a manager that’s sacked despite their supposed accountability. I’ve always found in the real world as opposed to the football world that poo rolls downhill. 
This is more an observation on football management versus other industries than a specific observation on Warne. 
I guess in football the players are a business asset and less disposable than perhaps employees in the broader sense of other industries 🤔 

It's strange that this group of players are, by definition, professionals in their sphere of work yet some lack self motivation, the ability to follow instructions, are ill disciplined etc which then puts into question their professionalism in the first place 

[FlyBritishMidland]

Didn’t go and listened on the radio so it’s difficult to comment on the performance.  Although it did sound like we were huffing and puffing a bit in the second half and ran out of ideas.

As others have said, I do think Warne missed a trick by not using more of the academy players.  He hinted at it on Saturday but it didn’t happen.  After some promising performances last week it would have been an ideal opportunity to give a few more some minutes. It would have been an ideal next step in their development - higher profile competition, bigger crowd but not massive, tougher opposition.  This could then lead to more time in EFL Trophy games and minutes in league matches as the season wears on.  Given the number of players out of contract, easing some in during this season could save us a few quid in the summer.

[BaianoPOTY98]

13 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

“Average at best” seems a bit harsh to me. I remember saying to the person next to me that it was looking like an entertaining 0:0 draw. Not because we were average but simply because it looked like two evenly matched teams cancelling each other out. You do have to take into account the quality of the opposition and whilst we didn’t allow them to play their finest game, they’re in the top 6 for a reason and of course, prior to Saturday, hadn’t lost on the road and only conceded 3 goals away from home.

I get what your saying Tamworth but it just shows how people see things differently, up until the penalty I was thinking here we go again another home defeat. Having said that I didn’t think we were playing badly but also I didn’t think we were playing great. Also my bar must be raised a lot higher than yours cos I don’t see Barnsley as a quality team.

[Tamworthram]

2 minutes ago, BaianoPOTY98 said:

I get what your saying Tamworth but it just shows how people see things differently, up until the penalty I was thinking here we go again another home defeat. Having said that I didn’t think we were playing badly but also I didn’t think we were playing great. Also my bar must be raised a lot higher than yours cos I don’t see Barnsley as a quality team.

They certainly didn’t look quality on Saturday but how much of that was down to how we allowed them to play? I’ve not seen enough of their other games to really judge their quality. I was just pointing out they’re in the top 6, hadn’t lost away prior to Saturday and had only conceded 3 goals. All of that must point towards some degree of quality I would say.

[G STAR RAM]

3 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

So unlike you I don't think the players weren't trying and I think they feel their responsibility.

How can you even make comments like this when you didn't even watch the game?! 😂

I'd suggest looking at Hourihanes effort to tackle for their first 2 goals and then come back and say you think he was giving his all.

[Caerphilly Ram]

42 minutes ago, FlyBritishMidland said:

I get what you mean but I see it a little differently.  The way I translate it is a football manager/head coach is a bit like a head of department in a business.   If that department, as a collective, isn’t performing then it’s the head who gets replaced.

That makes sense 

[BaianoPOTY98]

16 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

They certainly didn’t look quality on Saturday but how much of that was down to how we allowed them to play? I’ve not seen enough of their other games to really judge their quality. I was just pointing out they’re in the top 6, hadn’t lost away prior to Saturday and had only conceded 3 goals. All of that must point towards some degree of quality I would say.

But how much of that is down to the fact it’s a very poor standard of league we are playing in this season?

[Tamworthram]

17 minutes ago, BaianoPOTY98 said:

But how much of that is down to the fact it’s a very poor standard of league we are playing in this season?

Fair point but, like it or not, it's the pond we're swimming in at the moment so we probably need to readjust or expectations or expect to be disappointed pretty much every week.

[LeedsCityRam]

1 hour ago, FlyBritishMidland said:

Didn’t go and listened on the radio so it’s difficult to comment on the performance.  Although it did sound like we were huffing and puffing a bit in the second half and ran out of ideas.

As others have said, I do think Warne missed a trick by not using more of the academy players.  He hinted at it on Saturday but it didn’t happen.  After some promising performances last week it would have been an ideal opportunity to give a few more some minutes. It would have been an ideal next step in their development - higher profile competition, bigger crowd but not massive, tougher opposition.  This could then lead to more time in EFL Trophy games and minutes in league matches as the season wears on.  Given the number of players out of contract, easing some in during this season could save us a few quid in the summer.

Its definitely this point that has annoyed me the most & its on two levels.

Firstly, it didn't take too much thinking to conclude that the first team may not have been mentally up for last night's game given they'd just beaten a top 6 rival 3 days earlier in front of 28k & with an international break looming. That game was crying out for players for whom it would be a big deal - i.e. fringe players & especially the Academy lads, to match Crewe's enthusiasm. If we had played Fapetu, Weston & Robinson from the start, I honestly wouldn't have minded if we'd been beat 0-3 & I suspect I'm not alone in thinking that.

The second point is with regard to the long term development of youth players at a club that prides itself in having a Category 1 Academy. So far this season the kids have been trusted with one game - against a Wolves under 21 side who needed a big win to knock us out. That doesn't really come across as a serious pathway for what are clearly some talented players & as you rightly say, investment this season could accelerate their development in time for next summer. The 2021-22 season under Rooney showed how fast young players can develop when given opportunities - Ebiowei, Plange, Ebosele, Cashin & Thompson all came from nowhere to make first team contributions simply because they got the gametime to make mistakes & learn. Philip Cocu would also have played kids last night (and I suspect in the League Cup & throughout the EFL Trophy too) - picking Bird, Sibley & Knight away at Forest in League Cup in late 2019 was heavily criticised at the time but all 3 were making telling first XI contributions 3/4 months later.

We do not have the right manager in charge to develop youth & this is at odds with where the club wants & needs to go long term in order to be sustainable.

Edited November 15, 2023 by LeedsCityRam

[duncanjwitham]

15 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

That doesn't really come across as a serious pathway for what are clearly some talented players & as you rightly say, investment this season could accelerate their development in time for next summer.

And it’s not just those guys, it’s a selling point for other academy players that we might try and recruit.  I’m sure I’ve seen things from the likes of Plange and Ebiowei, saying that the clear path to the first team was a big reason they chose us over other higher profile clubs.

[BaianoPOTY98]

17 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Its definitely this point that has annoyed me the most & its on two levels.

Firstly, it didn't take too much thinking to conclude that the first team may not have been mentally up for last night's game given they'd just beaten a top 6 rival 3 days earlier in front of 28k & with an international break looming. That game was crying out for players for whom it would be a big deal - i.e. fringe players & especially the Academy lads, to match Crewe's enthusiasm. If we had played Fapetu, Weston & Robinson from the start, I honestly wouldn't have minded if we'd been beat 0-3 & I suspect I'm not alone in thinking that.

The second point is with regard to the long term development of youth players at a club that prides itself in having a Category 1 Academy. So far this season the kids have been trusted with one game - against a Wolves under 21 side who needed a big win to knock us out. That doesn't really come across as a serious pathway for what are clearly some talented players & as you rightly say, investment this season could accelerate their development in time for next summer. The 2021-22 season under Rooney showed how fast young players can develop when given opportunities - Ebiowei, Plange, Ebosele, Cashin & Thompson all came from nowhere to make first team contributions simply because they got the gametime to make mistakes & learn. Philip Cocu would also have played kids last night (and I suspect in the League Cup & throughout the EFL Trophy too) - picking Bird, Sibley & Knight away at Forest in League Cup in late 2019 was heavily criticised at the time but all 3 were making telling first XI contributions 3/4 months later.

We do not have the right manager in charge to develop youth & this is at odds with where the club wants & needs to go long term in order to be sustainable.

So true LeedsCityRam and I think even the most ardent Warne supporters would agree with you on the youth development point.

[Van der MoodHoover]

It is a very important point and I would be surprised if it hadn't been a topic of conversation with the owner.

DC will not get maximum value from the investment in Cat 1 players if there is virtually zero opportunity to showcase their capabilities.

[hintonsboots]

20 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

It is a very important point and I would be surprised if it hadn't been a topic of conversation with the owner.

DC will not get maximum value from the investment in Cat 1 players if there is virtually zero opportunity to showcase their capabilities.

Exactly. With Villa and Southampton rumoured to be interested in Robinson, surely he’s good enough to develop in the first team. 

[europia]

6 hours ago, duncanjwitham said:

The biggest issue is that a lot of the players we have are just not capable of doing the job that Warne wants them doing, they were mostly signed to do different jobs in a completely different setup.  Hourihane is not a mobile midfield enforcer, Sibley and Barkhuizen are not flying wingers that can cross, Collins is not a big physical target-man that you can play off, Bird and Smith are not a box-to-box midfielders etc etc etc.  A fair few of the players we've signed this summer seem to fall into this category too, which is even more worrying.

If we keep setting up in ways that require Sibley to hit the byline and cross, or Hourihane to dominate midfield on his own, or Smith to make runs into the box to support the striker etc, then both the team are going to struggle and the players themselves are going to look bad.  Those players are never going to be able to do those things.

So there are 3 options - we replace most of the squad with different players, the manager has a change of heart and completely changes tack, or we get a new manager.  I don't see anything improving until one of those things happens.

I would agree with the 'square pegs in round holes' suggestion. Also to be considered, too many of the first team squad just can't perform consistently. They probably raised their game significantly for the Barnsley game, but the Tuesday cup battle was too much, either mentally or physically (perhaps both).