Derby County Versus Crewe Alexandra - Match Day Thread - ( FA Cup 1st Rd Replay )

[Jimbo Ram]

2 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

It’s their fault if they execute the plan, however crap that may be, badly. I wasn’t at the game last night and neither were you but, by all accounts (looking at the comments and the player ratings) most didn’t play particularly well. 
 

Only yesterday you were stating that there is no shared responsibility - it all on PW. I’m not sure if you’ve now changed your opinion. I don’t think anyone is suggesting PW got things right last night or is completely (or even remotely convinced) by his ability and tactics but you can’t in it all on PW as you seem to be trying to do.

It’s quite telling that you have been far more vocal following last nights defeat than you were following the win on Saturday. 

 

Surely within any organisation the Manager is ultimately responsible for performance, be that good or bad 🤔

[Tamworthram]

1 minute ago, duncanjwitham said:

The biggest issue is that a lot of the players we have are just not capable of doing the job that Warne wants them doing, they were mostly signed to do different jobs in a completely different setup.  Hourihane is not a mobile midfield enforcer, Sibley and Barkhuizen are not flying wingers that can cross, Collins is not a big physical target-man that you can play off, Bird and Smith are not a box-to-box midfielders etc etc etc.  A fair few of the players we've signed this summer seem to fall into this category too, which is even more worrying.

If we keep setting up in ways that require Sibley to hit the byline and cross, or Hourihane to dominate midfield on his own, or Smith to make runs into the box to support the striker etc, then both the team are going to struggle and the players themselves are going to look bad.  Those players are never going to be able to do those things.

So there are 3 options - we replace most of the squad with different players, the manager has a change of heart and completely changes tack, or we get a new manager.  I don't see anything improving until one of those things happens.

That’s a very valid and fair response. I guess, where I was coming from is based on my observations from earlier games (as I wasn’t there last night) when players have, on occasion but far to often, got some of the basics wrong which I’m not sure they can put down to playing a position/style that doesn’t suit them.

Not remotely scientific but I would put the blame at something like 80% Warne and the coaching staff, 20% the players. 

[Tamworthram]

4 minutes ago, Jimbo Ram said:

Surely within any organisation the Manager is ultimately responsible for performance, be that good or bad 🤔

They are accountable but not always totally responsible. (Imagine the outcry if, following the good result and performance on Saturday, anyone had dared to suggest it was all down to PW). That doesn’t, and shouldn’t, absolve the rest of the workforce from some degree of responsibility or deny them any recognition.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Tamworthram

[Jimbo Ram]

1 minute ago, Tamworthram said:

They are accountable but not always totally responsible. That doesn’t, and shouldn’t, absolve the rest of the workforce from some degree of responsibility. 

But they will end up losing their job, not their workforce. Just the way it works.

[Tamworthram]

4 minutes ago, Jimbo Ram said:

But they will end up losing their job, not their workforce. Just the way it works.

I’m not disputing that is often/usually how it works but it doesn’t mean the workforce should be free from any criticism.

[RoyMac5]

17 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

It’s their fault if they execute the plan, however crap that may be, badly. I wasn’t at the game last night and neither were you but, by all accounts (looking at the comments and the player ratings) most didn’t play particularly well. 
 

Only yesterday you were stating that there is no shared responsibility - it all on PW. I’m not sure if you’ve now changed your opinion. I don’t think anyone is suggesting PW got things right last night or is completely (or even remotely convinced) by his ability and tactics but you can’t in it all on PW as you seem to be trying to do.

It’s quite telling that you have been far more vocal following last nights defeat than you were following the win on Saturday. 

 

No I don't think that is the interpretation I was putting across. That is how you chose to see it. I said the players were responsible. And just like above the man in charge is ultimately responsible.

So unlike you I don't think the players weren't trying and I think they feel their responsibility. They do what they can and if they can't then that is up to Warne to deal with.

[duncanjwitham]

3 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

That’s a very valid and fair response. I guess, where I was coming from is based on my observations from earlier games (as I wasn’t there last night) when players have, on occasion but far to often, got some of the basics wrong which I’m not sure they can put down to playing a position/style that doesn’t suit them.

Not remotely scientific but I would put the blame at something like 80% Warne and the coaching staff, 20% the players. 

I suspect the playing out of position thing has the effect of magnifying any other mistakes. If a player is clearly struggling to do his job, and he makes a few sloppy mistakes on top of that, it's going to look a lot worse than a few sloppy mistakes in an other-wise accomplished performance, because you've already got your finger pointed in his direction.

I do think the tactical setup isn't helping either.  If you look at Hourihane's mistake for their second, in the highlights posted previously, he picks the ball up, and there's basically no other Derby player in shot for the entire duration he holds it, and he ends up trying to thread a difficult pass that he fails to make.  If he's got a simple pass on there, we probably don't concede that goal.

Their first goal, both Smith and Hourihane appear to have got caught up field, and struggle to get back quickly enough to influence the game.  But if you set up with a pair of 30+ year olds in midfield and have them both constantly getting forwards and chasing back, that sort of stuff is going to happen at times.

[Tamworthram]

2 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

No I don't think that is the interpretation I was putting across. That is how you chose to see it. I said the players were responsible. And just like above the man in charge is ultimately responsible.

So unlike you I don't think the players weren't trying and I think they feel their responsibility. They do what they can and if they can't then that is up to Warne to deal with.

It’s not interpretation, it’s literally what you said “shared responsibility is not a thing”.

I agree PW has to take ultimate responsibility but there are lower levels of responsibility which we seem to agree on eventually.

When did I say the players weren’t trying? Please either find my quote (maybe it’s there somewhere) or don’t put words in my mouth (something I will concede I have been guilty of in the past).

[Comrade 86]

9 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

I said the players were responsible. 

[RoyMac5]

5 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

It’s not interpretation, it’s literally what you said “shared responsibility is not a thing”.

I agree PW has to take ultimate responsibility but there are lower levels of responsibility which we seem to agree on eventually.

When did I say the players weren’t trying? Please either find my quote (maybe it’s there somewhere) or don’t put words in my mouth (something I will concede I have been guilty of in the past).

And as I said - the buck stops with Warne, as you agree. Warne should deal with these things, but you are too busy trying to re-interpret what I said than answer why Warne doesn't. The match last night was a cracking example of responsibility, did Warne get anything correct? 😄 Obviously I assumed that what you'd said about the players it could be taken to mean they weren't trying, how else to interpret them not taking responsibility?

Edited November 15, 2023 by RoyMac5

[DavesaRam]

6 hours ago, admira said:

He’d have bossed our midfield last night 

Actually we ought to sign him up straight away. He’s obviously got the ball up his jumper, so all he’s got to do is run, or lumber, towards the opposition goal and just keep on going across the goal line. Ge’d certainly take some stopping!

[Tamworthram]

7 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

And as I said - the buck stops with Warne, as you agree. Warne should deal with these things, but you are too busy trying to re-interpret what I said than answer why Warne doesn't. The match last night was a cracking example of responsibility, did Warne get anything correct? 😄 Obviously I assumed that what you'd said about the players it could be taken to mean they weren't trying, how else to interpret them not taking responsibility?

Ironic how you’re accusing me of trying to re-interpret what you said and then can find no other interpretation for “taking responsibility” other than “not trying”. You do know that someone can try hard but still not do very well don’t you?

To try and end this conversation perhaps I should remind you that all I said originally is that I suspect there is probably an element of shared responsibility. I.e. Warne got things wrong and continues to do so but the players also make mistakes and play badly from time to time that you can’t always pin on the coaching they receive or the style of play they’re being asked to play. 

[Caerphilly Ram]

41 minutes ago, Jimbo Ram said:

But they will end up losing their job, not their workforce. Just the way it works.

 

35 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

I’m not disputing that is often/usually how it works but it doesn’t mean the workforce should be free from any criticism.

Is that normally how it works? Football management seems a bit of an anomaly in that it almost always is the manager who pays the price, yet in all other organisations I’ve worked in both in the public and private sector, a poor performing employee is given every opportunity to improve and if they persist with their underperformance they are more often than not managed out of the business or repurposed into a different role, it’s rarely been a manager that’s sacked despite their supposed accountability. I’ve always found in the real world as opposed to the football world that poo rolls downhill. 
This is more an observation on football management versus other industries than a specific observation on Warne. 
I guess in football the players are a business asset and less disposable than perhaps employees in the broader sense of other industries 🤔 

Edited November 15, 2023 by Caerphilly Ram
Additional thoughts

[Gabby'sThighs]

The full match is available on RamsTV, just in case anyone is interested. I'm debating whether or not I can be arsed. I was actually looking forward to this game and a) couldn't watch it, and b) we were turds anyway.

I listened on the radio and watched the highlights so can only comment on the disappointing result, rather than performances.

More importantly, I'm worried about the long-term strategy of the club - where are we going? I think it's a massive shame that some of the young 'uns didn't get a game. I saw that the U21s played Huddersfield yesterday and smashed them 7-0. We've got some talented young boys but Warne stuck with a 'strong' team in spite of the large volume of games they've had to play lately.

A few of those I'd be happy to see go but I'd love to see a switch to focus on the youngsters before they get frustrated and leave/get poached by bigger clubs.  Both Crewe games were a missed opportunity to blood some U21 & academy players.

Next summer is a massive rebuild, with contracts currently expiring for Wildsmith, Cashin, Fozzy, Hourihane, Collins, Waghorn, Smith, NML, Barkhuizen, Sibley, plus Nyambe could leave in January. Even Thompson and D Robinson could walk away. (all based on Transfermark, btw).

The club should already know who's staying and leaving, who our transfer targets are, and which U21s are ready to step up. If Warne isn't on board, bin him off. If players are leaving (I don't blame them!), get them gone. There's so much incoherence, off the field and on, and it's not going to be resolved inside the next 8 months. I hope Mark Thomas (Director of Football) and Craig Fleming (Director of Development) can start showing their value soon.

[SKRam]

Finally caught up with comments! Phew.

@Tamworthram and @RoyMac5 can we have a team hug please. I agree with many of Tamworth’s posts and not so many with RoyMacs, respect to both, all about opinions, but as an official (in my humble) happy clapper I hope we all draw a line under a most underwhelming game after a few hours recovery time. It’s a blip if we turn it on next league game which we all agree is far more important than any cup game. Something more should we not turn over BRFC. 
My biggest contention is this reluctance to throw the kids on. Please PW, as a fan of yours give them half an hour for goodness sake, in games like last night. Hell do himself a huge favour by explaining g why he won’t allow more game time to some very exciting prospects. This one thing is what disappoints me most about his tenure. 
I’m aware that opens up a list for some posters but above everything let’s get back on track with a near full squad for a ‘huge’ (again) home game in ten days. 
ps I’m only on my second pint in Crown & Kettle which is a big Blue Moon boozer in Manchester. Hope I’ve not bored everyone off. 

[jono]

18 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

He picked them. We were struggling and he put Mr Whizz Bradley on. 😄

Yes, but whoever was on the pitch they did need to “run more” which was what I think you challenged ? . I think you want to imply that Warne is simplistic or even crude ? Well that’s the message I got from your original post. Sorry Roy, perhaps I am mistaken ? but I certainly felt the sneer and dismissiveness in your tone ? Is that what you were suggesting or is it something else ? 
 

From my point of view, having been at that match, it WAS very simple .. There wasn’t much between the sides in skill deployed. We didn’t hoof it or play “bad” football. (You might argue that played football badly though. )

Very simply, Crewe were as good as we were individually but worked harder. They deserved their win simply because of that. 
This loss wasn’t about style of play or tactics .. this was about effort and errors .. Collectively there was not enough of one and too many of the other. 

Edited November 15, 2023 by jono

[BramcoteRam84]

8 hours ago, angieram said:

Robinson was on the bench.

This guy off on international duty. 

I never actually saw the team sheet and missed the subs so assumed he was away with NI again. If he was on the bench then only strengthens the observation he should use the squad better, that’s poor from Warne. 

[RoyMac5]

Just now, jono said:

Yes, but whoever was on the pitch they did need to “run more” which was I think you challenged ? . I think you want to imply that Warne is simplistic or even crude ? Well that’s the message I got from your original post. Sorry Roy, perhaps I am mistaken ? but I certainly felt the sneer and dismissiveness in your tone ? Is that what you were suggesting or is it something else ? 
 

From my point of view, having been at that match, it WAS very simple .. There wasn’t much between the sides in skill deployed. We didn’t hoof it or play “bad” football. (You might argue that played football badly though. )

Very simply, Crewe were as good as we were individually but worked harder. They deserved their win simply because of that. 
This loss wasn’t about style of play or tactics .. this was about effort and errors .. Collectively there was not enough of one and too many of the other. 

Yes that's what I'm saying, not implying. It's not a sneer it a scoff. He's absolutely one-dimensional - or is that just how it comes across? He went to wingbacks to put more crosses in? 

[BramcoteRam84]

8 hours ago, Tamworthram said:

I agree to an extent in the sense that cup games should (potentially) be excluded (I don’t imagine Portsmouth fans are losing too much sleep over losing to Chesterfield) but, wouldn’t you say we have already been fundamentally inconsistent in the league even before the Bristol and Vale games? I would turn it around and suggest we have been inconsistent and it will take a longer run of good results (or at least good performances) to prove otherwise.

Agree with this mostly but I’d say a lot of teams are inconsistent early season before the successful ones get it together. We were at crisis point after Stevenage in the eyes of some (quite a few) fans, from giving Warne the benefit of the doubt I was questioning him and I do have serious reservations about if he is the right man long term. However Clowes gave him the dreaded vote of confidence and since then we’ve improved home performances significantly since and Barnsley was arguably the best performance under Warne. I don’t therefore think we should use the cup tie with Crewe as the barometer of where we’re at, he’s given himself breathing space with the Northampton and Barnsley win in particular, he wins the next 2 he’s building that winning run reminiscent of last season which most agree he needs to keep his job into January and to the end of the season (in the eyes of fans not Clowes who is the ultimate decision maker). Poor results in the next 2-3 league games which are all very winnable then I’ll start seriously questioning him again and fan pressure will start to build and quite rightly.

[jono]

13 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Yes that's what I'm saying, not implying. It's not a sneer it a scoff. He's absolutely one-dimensional - or is that just how it comes across? He went to wingbacks to put more crosses in? 

So, you don’t think they needed to run more and make fewer individual mistakes ? Change the manager again ? It’s not the players having a bad day ? It’s all down to bad coaching ? It has nothing to do with an opponent who made fewer mistakes, were more hungry for the ball and worked their bollox off ? 
 

Let’s take Cashin - probably tops of our lot for desire and effort but they worked him over, pure and simple.  No coaching, “dimensions” or tactics are going to change that. We didn’t exhibit enough team play or effort and we misplaced too many passes. We got beaten by a side that were better than us on the night. Virtually the same team that bossed Barnsley and came out on top. … I’d be asking the players to question themselves rather than reverting to a sack the boss knee jerk reaction.