Derby County Versus Crewe Alexandra - Match Day Thread - ( FA Cup 1st Rd Replay )

[angieram]

10 hours ago, europia said:

I would agree with the 'square pegs in round holes' suggestion. Also to be considered, too many of the first team squad just can't perform consistently. They probably raised their game significantly for the Barnsley game, but the Tuesday cup battle was too much, either mentally or physically (perhaps both). 

I do agree with Tuesday evening being a game too many for some and that's why it's such a shame that Warne didn't start with some fresh legs and minds against Crewe.

Someone like Robinson or Weston would have been really up for a game like this, and it would have shown. 

Their number 30, who everyone is raving about, has only started 6 games for them, and come on 4 times, but he was really up for it against a "big" club. He's not pulled up any trees in his other loan spells either, but we gave him the freedom of midfield to strutt his stuff.

It might have been a different game if Robinson had been hassling him every time he got on the ball and he would certainly have let him know he was there, not stood aside while he played through us. 

[Crewton]

On 15/11/2023 at 07:59, admira said:

Cox Out! 😉

[Crewton]

19 minutes ago, angieram said:

I do agree with Tuesday evening being a game too many for some and that's why it's such a shame that Warne didn't start with some fresh legs and minds against Crewe.

Someone like Robinson or Weston would have been really up for a game like this, and it would have shown. 

Their number 30, who everyone is raving about, has only started 6 games for them, and come on 4 times, but he was really up for it against a "big" club. He's not pulled up any trees in his other loan spells either, but we gave him the freedom of midfield to strutt his stuff.

It might have been a different game if Robinson had been hassling him every time he got on the ball and he would certainly have let him know he was there, not stood aside while he played through us. 

I completely agree. Hourihane really couldn't motivate himself to do the basics (Korey Smith also possibly) and instead Warne should have selected some players who would have really been "up" for it. I don't blame the players particularly, it must have felt like turning out for the reserves and at their age, a bit of an insult.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Crewton

[RoyMac5]

24 minutes ago, Crewton said:

I completely agree. Hourihane really couldn't motivate himself to do the basics (Korey Smith also possibly) and instead Warne should have selected some players who would have really been "up" for it. I don't blame the players particularly, it must have felt like turning out for the reserves and at their age, a bit of an insult.

And yet he was on the pitch until the 83rd minute? I was surprised to see that Barks lasted the whole match. What does Warne see that others don't.

[kevinhectoring]

17 hours ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

It is a very important point and I would be surprised if it hadn't been a topic of conversation with the owner.

DC will not get maximum value from the investment in Cat 1 players if there is virtually zero opportunity to showcase their capabilities.

Warne pointed in his post match to the financial benefits of a cup run. That might well have come up in a recent discussion with DC. Maybe that was behind his decision to stick with the more senior players, despite that they were knackered 

[Van der MoodHoover]

20 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

Warne pointed in his post match to the financial benefits of a cup run. That might well have come up in a recent discussion with DC. Maybe that was behind his decision to stick with the more senior players, despite that they were knackered 

So in trying not to gamble, he in fact gambled.....

.....and lost.

Unlucky.

[jono]

21 hours ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Its definitely this point that has annoyed me the most & its on two levels.

Firstly, it didn't take too much thinking to conclude that the first team may not have been mentally up for last night's game given they'd just beaten a top 6 rival 3 days earlier in front of 28k & with an international break looming. That game was crying out for players for whom it would be a big deal - i.e. fringe players & especially the Academy lads, to match Crewe's enthusiasm. If we had played Fapetu, Weston & Robinson from the start, I honestly wouldn't have minded if we'd been beat 0-3 & I suspect I'm not alone in thinking that.

The second point is with regard to the long term development of youth players at a club that prides itself in having a Category 1 Academy. So far this season the kids have been trusted with one game - against a Wolves under 21 side who needed a big win to knock us out. That doesn't really come across as a serious pathway for what are clearly some talented players & as you rightly say, investment this season could accelerate their development in time for next summer. The 2021-22 season under Rooney showed how fast young players can develop when given opportunities - Ebiowei, Plange, Ebosele, Cashin & Thompson all came from nowhere to make first team contributions simply because they got the gametime to make mistakes & learn. Philip Cocu would also have played kids last night (and I suspect in the League Cup & throughout the EFL Trophy too) - picking Bird, Sibley & Knight away at Forest in League Cup in late 2019 was heavily criticised at the time but all 3 were making telling first XI contributions 3/4 months later.

We do not have the right manager in charge to develop youth & this is at odds with where the club wants & needs to go long term in order to be sustainable.

I am opposed to changing our manager now, I just think it’s fundamentally wrong for so many reasons but yours is the best counter argument I have seen. He missed an opportunity in bigger picture terms. My guess this time round is he thought a group buoyed by Saturdays win would cruise through this game with confidence and vigour which is a rational assumption

I don’t think he got any tactics wrong but his players didn’t meet his expectations when younger hungrier lads might have done. No guarantee of course, it was a reasonable decision but it didn’t work.
 

I am still ok with Warne, I still want him given time (This full season ) but too many more choices that don’t bear fruit will make me question 

[popside ossie end popside]

On 15/11/2023 at 10:54, RoyMac5 said:

But he is played out of position. If only Warne would play him regularly as fullback when we had that long unbeaten run last season. That'll show them.

There have been stats provided, numbers you can't argue with showing how little Sibley plays but how well he does with the minimum time he gets. But better to just say at 22 he's a busted flush.

Surely he has been told again and again about stupid tackles and picking up bookings?  The lad just does not learn and hasn't got a footballing brain, some players never do. He will make a career, but not the sort i thought it was going to be

[RoyMac5]

6 minutes ago, jono said:

I am opposed to changing our manager now, I just think it’s fundamentally wrong for so many reasons but yours is the best counter argument I have seen. He missed an opportunity in bigger picture terms. My guess this time round is he thought a group buoyed by Saturdays win would cruise through this game with confidence and vigour which is a rational assumption

I don’t think he got any tactics wrong but his players didn’t meet his expectations when younger hungrier lads might have done. No guarantee of course, it was a reasonable decision but it didn’t work.
 

I am still ok with Warne, I still want him given time (This full season ) but too many more choices that don’t bear fruit will make me question 

Of course he did, we lost. Not only that but he himself admits he doesn't know why we lost. As for him bringing younger players on - see his comments about that:

 

[RoyMac5]

2 minutes ago, popside ossie end popside said:

Surely he has been told again and again about stupid tackles and picking up bookings?  The lad just does not learn and hasn't got a footballing brain, some players never do. He will make a career, but not the sort i thought it was going to be

What? He's hardly the only player to get booked. And if you want to talk about stupid booking try looking at Collins!

[Ghost of Clough]

6 minutes ago, popside ossie end popside said:

Surely he has been told again and again about stupid tackles and picking up bookings?  The lad just does not learn and hasn't got a footballing brain, some players never do. He will make a career, but not the sort i thought it was going to be

Players who have a worse minutes per card ratio than Sibley in the league this season: Thompson, Collins, Cashin, Forsyth, Hourihane.

Sibley is judged harsher than anyone else in our squad - be that bad performances, fouls or just about anything.

The best thing for his career is to move away from his boyhood club for the exact same reasons as Wildsmith stated when he joined us.

[DavesaRam]

28 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

What? He's hardly the only player to get booked. And if you want to talk about stupid booking try looking at Collins!

You can’t look at Collins - he’s Paul Warne’s love child.

[Van der MoodHoover]

1 hour ago, DavesaRam said:

You can’t look at Collins - he’s Paul Warne’s love child.

I thought that was Sonny Bradley?

He certainly seemed to pursue him like a lovestruck spaniel, and then there was that video of Sonny being shown around clowes towers and meeting DC....

[jono]

2 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

What? He's hardly the only player to get booked. And if you want to talk about stupid booking try looking at Collins!

Roy, you know a lot about the game, you’ve watched a lifetime of football, I know from our PM’s that you are a sound, well read intelligent and thoughtful man, but honestly with the anti Warne thing and the Sibley my love child stance you are being a bit of an obsessional scratched record and seriously one dimensional. Come on, regardless of position or a run of starts and whatever caveats are chucked in, has Sibs really got even close to his early promise or his occasional purple patches. ? I am sure you’d lambast the likes of Lawrence or Ince for the level of performance we’ve seen from him, but somehow Sibs gets a free pass time and again. I Just don’t get it ?
 

he’s a good lad with some ability, that  from time to time shows up. That said he isn’t a Will Hughes or anything even close. You wouldn’t build a team round him, you wouldn’t chose him as a dead cert on a 1 V 1, you wouldn’t say he’s Mr 100% graft and passion. You wouldn’t say he was team spirit personified or possessed of vision and a football brain. He’s a Ram and I’ll back him all the way when he’s playing but seeing him as a wronged and misused super star in the making is bonkers. .. And that is how you come across. Hey, each to his own, it is just opinions but there does come a point when hard evidence negates even the most sincere feelings and instincts. 

[RoyMac5]

10 minutes ago, jono said:

Roy, you know a lot about the game, you’ve watched a lifetime of football, I know from our PM’s that you are a sound, well read intelligent and thoughtful man, but honestly with the anti Warne thing and the Sibley my love child stance you are being a bit of an obsessional scratched record and seriously one dimensional. Come on, regardless of position or a run of starts and whatever caveats are chucked in, has Sibs really got even close to his early promise or his occasional purple patches. ? I am sure you’d lambast the likes of Lawrence or Ince for the level of performance we’ve seen from him, but somehow Sibs gets a free pass time and again. I Just don’t get it ?
 

he’s a good lad with some ability, that  from time to time shows up. That said he isn’t a Will Hughes or anything even close. You wouldn’t build a team round him, you wouldn’t chose him as a dead cert on a 1 V 1, you wouldn’t say he’s Mr 100% graft and passion. You wouldn’t say he was team spirit personified or possessed of vision and a football brain. He’s a Ram and I’ll back him all the way when he’s playing but seeing him as a wronged and misused super star in the making is bonkers. .. And that is how you come across. Hey, each to his own, it is just opinions but there does come a point when hard evidence negates even the most sincere feelings and instincts. 

He's younger than Wilson, he's never had a run of games anywhere other than fullback. He scores goals and provides assists, he runs at players. He gets stick for not being f****** Superman in the 10 minutes he gets here and there. His every mistake is examined in minutiae. But yeah you know what he's not better than Bellingham. 

[jono]

6 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

He's younger than Wilson, he's never had a run of games anywhere other than fullback. He scores goals and provides assists, he runs at players. He gets stick for not being f****** Superman in the 10 minutes he gets here and there. His every mistake is examined in minutiae. But yeah you know what he's not better than Bellingham. 

Whatever .. but he’s had a lot lot more than 10 minutes here and there 

[RoyMac5]

2 minutes ago, jono said:

Whatever .. but he’s had a lot lot more than 10 minutes here and there 

From a @Ghost of Clough stats post:

""Over the past 5 weeks, Sibley has 2 goals and 2 assists from the 5 games he started.

Notts County - 90 mins played (mostly on the wings), 2 goals

Shrewsbury - 90 mins played (RW)

Exeter - 71 mins (AM)

Stevenage - 45 mins (AM), 1 assist

Northampton - not used

Crewe - 11 mins (AM), 1 assist

Barnsley - 5 mins (CF)

Crewe - 59 mins (RW), 1 assist

That's 2 goals and 3 assists in just 371 minutes over the past 5 weeks.

He started 4 games in a row (2 goals and an assist), yet HE'S the problem (!!!) so needs to be brought off at half time shortly after assisting our equaliser - we failed to score in the 2nd half. Dropped to the bench in the following game and not even used. 2 more assists in the following 75 minutes on the pitch (spread over 3 games), but he'll no doubt be back on the bench against Bristol.

Sibley has to play well every game, or he is subbed off and dropped the first time he 'plays badly'. Thompson can play well every game but still won't start unless we have an injury crisis. Hourihane and Smith can be poor in several consecutive games but still start next week."

[Carnero]

11 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

From a @Ghost of Clough stats post:

""Over the past 5 weeks, Sibley has 2 goals and 2 assists from the 5 games he started.

Notts County - 90 mins played (mostly on the wings), 2 goals

Shrewsbury - 90 mins played (RW)

Exeter - 71 mins (AM)

Stevenage - 45 mins (AM), 1 assist

Northampton - not used

Crewe - 11 mins (AM), 1 assist

Barnsley - 5 mins (CF)

Crewe - 59 mins (RW), 1 assist

That's 2 goals and 3 assists in just 371 minutes over the past 5 weeks.

He started 4 games in a row (2 goals and an assist), yet HE'S the problem (!!!) so needs to be brought off at half time shortly after assisting our equaliser - we failed to score in the 2nd half. Dropped to the bench in the following game and not even used. 2 more assists in the following 75 minutes on the pitch (spread over 3 games), but he'll no doubt be back on the bench against Bristol.

Sibley has to play well every game, or he is subbed off and dropped the first time he 'plays badly'. Thompson can play well every game but still won't start unless we have an injury crisis. Hourihane and Smith can be poor in several consecutive games but still start next week."

I agree with you regarding the frustration at Sibley's lack of a proper run in the team to show what he can do as a regular starter.

However this is not a new issue, it's been going on under every manager since Cocu. At some point us Sibley-ites might need to look at the man himself rather than the manager(s), unfortunately.

[RoyMac5]

6 minutes ago, Carnero said:

I agree with you regarding the frustration at Sibley's lack of a proper run in the team to show what he can do as a regular starter.

However this is not a new issue, it's been going on under every manager since Cocu. At some point us Sibley-ites might need to look at the man himself rather than the manager(s), unfortunately.

If there was an obvious reason? He gets pulled off when others get left on. He doesn't get a start when others do. So if he's picked to play he must be a good person - he played how many consecutive games at fullback? It's obviously that he doesn't play a game that Warne likes/wants. Hourihane said as much for himself, if you don't play the way Warne wants you don't play.

When he's had a good run in a forward position and done squat then I'll agree with you. FFS he was on for how long the other match and hit the bar with a blistering shot. 

Edited November 16, 2023 by RoyMac5

[LeedsCityRam]

3 hours ago, jono said:

I am opposed to changing our manager now, I just think it’s fundamentally wrong for so many reasons but yours is the best counter argument I have seen. He missed an opportunity in bigger picture terms. My guess this time round is he thought a group buoyed by Saturdays win would cruise through this game with confidence and vigour which is a rational assumption

I don’t think he got any tactics wrong but his players didn’t meet his expectations when younger hungrier lads might have done. No guarantee of course, it was a reasonable decision but it didn’t work.
 

I am still ok with Warne, I still want him given time (This full season ) but too many more choices that don’t bear fruit will make me question 

Totally respect your opinion on Warne overall Jono. As a general rule, I absolutely hate dismissing managers, its such a waste of money & invariably they are never given enough time to fully implement their ideas. The only exception I tend to make is if there is a fundamental mismatch & I believe that's the case with Derby & Warne, in a number of areas.

I guess the collective hope is that we manage to scramble our way to promotion this season, the perception of him from the majority turns to favourable & if we do struggle in the Championship thereafter, it's less painful financially to part ways at that point. Barnsley last Saturday gave a glimpse of what we are capable of, we just need that consistency & a Cup defeat to Crewe isn't really relevant to that. Unfortunately that still doesn't square the sustainability or youth development dilemma but it may be Clowes is willing to overlook that until May just to drag us out of this backwater.