Palestine

[PistoldPete]

1 hour ago, GboroRam said:

No need to hide who posted it, it was me. And I will apologise, I certainly didn't know I'd posted anything antisemitic. 

I find it hard not to make a comparison with the persecution of the Jews in the 30s, and the attacks on Palestinians now. Perversely, the people who were receiving the persecution now have a state apparatus doing the persecution of Palestinians, in the name of driving out Hamas. I mean, would we have said any different if the UK state had blown up whole catholic areas of Northern Ireland, with the intention of driving out the IRA? 

Of course the actions of the Israeli state aren't the actions of all Jews and I don't think anyone is suggesting they are, but can anyone deny there's horrible echoes here, with over a million people fleeing for their lives? It feels very wrong. 

There's a lot of support in the west for Israel and it's hard to say much negative without being cast as antisemitic. I don't believe I am, but perhaps I don't quite agree with the current definition of antisemitism. Offending posts have been removed and I'll try to be mindful of the guidelines as to the definition of antisemitism. Apologies if anyone took offence. 

Thanks Gboro I get that, appreciate it. You will know that often racism is not always intentional. 

 

Comparison with IRA is not really valid.. they never murdered 1,300 people in one go did they? The Hamas attacks (like those on 9/11) are a different game altogether. I do think it is a reasonable view that Israel's response is not proportionate. Any loss of civilian life is tragic. But given the history, I also get why they would not want to be restrained or tolerant. 

I hope and believe that ~Israel's action will stop once Gaza is evacuated. I do not think they are expansionist or empire building. They are just trying to secure a buffer zone for their own security. That's what I hope anyway.     

[ariotofmyown]

22 hours ago, Rev said:

 

 

I just listened to their latest interview with Israeli Yuval Noah Harari.

I'm a big fan of his and think he done a good job of giving his reaction of the terrible events.

[ariotofmyown]

3 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Thanks Gboro I get that, appreciate it. You will know that often racism is not always intentional. 

 

Comparison with IRA is not really valid.. they never murdered 1,300 people in one go did they? The Hamas attacks (like those on 9/11) are a different game altogether. I do think it is a reasonable view that Israel's response is not proportionate. Any loss of civilian life is tragic. But given the history, I also get why they would not want to be restrained or tolerant. 

I hope and believe that ~Israel's action will stop once Gaza is evacuated. I do not think they are expansionist or empire building. They are just trying to secure a buffer zone for their own security. That's what I hope anyway.     

The interview I just mentioned made a good comparison to 911. Said the Hamas attack would have been like Al Queda also controlling New Jersey.

[GboroRam]

41 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Thanks Gboro I get that, appreciate it. You will know that often racism is not always intentional. 

 

Comparison with IRA is not really valid.. they never murdered 1,300 people in one go did they? The Hamas attacks (like those on 9/11) are a different game altogether. I do think it is a reasonable view that Israel's response is not proportionate. Any loss of civilian life is tragic. But given the history, I also get why they would not want to be restrained or tolerant. 

I hope and believe that ~Israel's action will stop once Gaza is evacuated. I do not think they are expansionist or empire building. They are just trying to secure a buffer zone for their own security. That's what I hope anyway.     

I don't think it changes anything, increasing the scale. If the IRA had killed a thousand, I'd still say wiping out catholic areas is criminal and needs publicly calling out as such. 

[Carl Sagan]

2 hours ago, GboroRam said:

No need to hide who posted it, it was me. And I will apologise, I certainly didn't know I'd posted anything antisemitic. 

I find it hard not to make a comparison with the persecution of the Jews in the 30s, and the attacks on Palestinians now. Perversely, the people who were receiving the persecution now have a state apparatus doing the persecution of Palestinians, in the name of driving out Hamas. I mean, would we have said any different if the UK state had blown up whole catholic areas of Northern Ireland, with the intention of driving out the IRA? 

Of course the actions of the Israeli state aren't the actions of all Jews and I don't think anyone is suggesting they are, but can anyone deny there's horrible echoes here, with over a million people fleeing for their lives? It feels very wrong. 

There's a lot of support in the west for Israel and it's hard to say much negative without being cast as antisemitic. I don't believe I am, but perhaps I don't quite agree with the current definition of antisemitism. Offending posts have been removed and I'll try to be mindful of the guidelines as to the definition of antisemitism. Apologies if anyone took offence. 

My take is it's an absurd political judgement/ruling to ban such talk, and people should be able to say it if that's what they believe. Very generous of you to remove it and talk about it.

Over the years I think Israel has often been in the wrong, and the long reign of Netanyahu has only exacerbated this. However, in this particular case, right seems on their side. Never in my life have I seen such horrific slaughter as by the terrorists of Hamas. Having had so many babies, children, women and men brutally and indiscriminately murdered, Israel has seen it can no longer defend its borders given the weaponry Hamas possesses. If they don't act, it will happen again and again. Next month or next year, another invasion will simply see thousands more gunned down. A government's number one task is to defend its people. In their judgement, and it's difficult to argue with, that can only be done by destroying Hamas - a group that refuses to accept the existence of Israel and wants all Jews killed. And has backed up that rhetoric with these most terrible actions.

Israel has asked civilians to leave the coming battle zone. What more can they do? A battle zone where hundreds of kidnapped babies, children and women, young and elderly, are being held as hostages. I see both sides, but it's understandable the Israelis aren't allowing water and electricity to the kidnappers. If my grandmother or granddaughter were one of those being held, I'd be appalled if our government was "playing nice" with them. Most of my life I've been a fierce critic of Israel, but in terms of the size of their country, this is ten times bigger than 9/11. And on the back of it we see Jews in the UK and across the world now living in a state of fear. They need our support.

The hope is that the decent Palestinians, even now, are able to free the hostages and deal with Hamas themselves, but it doesn't look as if that's happening. The battle will be horrendous when it comes, as Hamas has dug in and was obviously hoping and expecting and planning for this to happen. But I don't see how Israel has a choice.

 

 

[Alph]

https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties

 

[Archied]

8 hours ago, Carl Sagan said:

My take is it's an absurd political judgement/ruling to ban such talk, and people should be able to say it if that's what they believe. Very generous of you to remove it and talk about it.

Over the years I think Israel has often been in the wrong, and the long reign of Netanyahu has only exacerbated this. However, in this particular case, right seems on their side. Never in my life have I seen such horrific slaughter as by the terrorists of Hamas. Having had so many babies, children, women and men brutally and indiscriminately murdered, Israel has seen it can no longer defend its borders given the weaponry Hamas possesses. If they don't act, it will happen again and again. Next month or next year, another invasion will simply see thousands more gunned down. A government's number one task is to defend its people. In their judgement, and it's difficult to argue with, that can only be done by destroying Hamas - a group that refuses to accept the existence of Israel and wants all Jews killed. And has backed up that rhetoric with these most terrible actions.

Israel has asked civilians to leave the coming battle zone. What more can they do? A battle zone where hundreds of kidnapped babies, children and women, young and elderly, are being held as hostages. I see both sides, but it's understandable the Israelis aren't allowing water and electricity to the kidnappers. If my grandmother or granddaughter were one of those being held, I'd be appalled if our government was "playing nice" with them. Most of my life I've been a fierce critic of Israel, but in terms of the size of their country, this is ten times bigger than 9/11. And on the back of it we see Jews in the UK and across the world now living in a state of fear. They need our support.

The hope is that the decent Palestinians, even now, are able to free the hostages and deal with Hamas themselves, but it doesn't look as if that's happening. The battle will be horrendous when it comes, as Hamas has dug in and was obviously hoping and expecting and planning for this to happen. But I don't see how Israel has a choice.

 

 

It only ends when a line is drawn on the past and the Arab/ Muslim world condemn s and fights hand in hand against extremism/ terrorism which is mirrored by the west standing with them against Israeli wrong doing and expansion coupled with massive change in the foreign policy of the west , it starts when mothers of both sides march hand in hand against the senseless killing 

[Mostyn6]

13 hours ago, PistoldPete said:

We have had one poster say there was no evidence of the Hamas attacks

If this is aimed at me, I stand by the comment, but will not argue your beliefs. If you choose to believe what you're told, then that is your right.

Oddly, if you look at the video posted by Rev above, you'll see an Israeli PR guy refuting video evidence highlighting war crimes by Israel. 

Do you not find it odd that they order Palestinians to leave the land they desire, under the guise of wanting to crush Hamas, as if Hamas couldn't just leave with the civilians to avoid being crushed.

This has been planned for a long time.

I don't doubt that there have been Hamas attacks, but with everything Israel has reported for at least the last 15years (I've been paying attention), what they report as severe attacks are nowhere near, what they report as attacks in previous years have been children throwing stones from 1/2 a mile away (and being shot dead by Israeli forces). There is plenty of footage of this.

For clarity, Hamas is real, but the media is so one-sided and the media is literally all owned by Israel so all the reporting is biased.

If you want to justify a war, you create/embellish/exaggerate something to create rage.

[i-Ram]

I fear @Mostyn6 you have over-snacked on Icke biscuits. Step back from the tin.

[Stive Pesley]

1 hour ago, Mostyn6 said:

the media is literally all owned by Israel

More anti-semitism according to the IHRA working definition

Edited October 17, 2023 by Stive Pesley

[Mostyn6]

5 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

I fear @Mostyn6 you have over-snacked on Icke biscuits. Step back from the tin.

I wondered if anyone would say that. But I left Derby in one direction, and G left Derby in the other direction and I've not seen him for 2 years. I've never subscribed to David's sites/newsletters etc, nor read any of his books in entirety. I'll admit that G's support for Palestine over the years has made me pay closer attention, and aligned with what I know to be dishonest and biased mainstream media in almost everything, I don't believe a word I hear on the news.

I will add though, almost everything about the last few years of Covid, Lockdowns, Vaccines, WEF, Cashless society, was all called out by the likes of The Ickes, all dismissed by people like you, and then proven to be more accurate than how reported by the mainstream. 

But, as they say, "you do you.. hun". I'm happy to be open-minded about these things.

[Mostyn6]

Just now, Stive Pesley said:

More anti-semitism according to the IHRA working definition

have a look at who owns the the big media companies and how many have Israeli passports

 

[PistoldPete]

1 hour ago, Mostyn6 said:

If this is aimed at me, I stand by the comment, but will not argue your beliefs. If you choose to believe what you're told, then that is your right.

Oddly, if you look at the video posted by Rev above, you'll see an Israeli PR guy refuting video evidence highlighting war crimes by Israel. 

Do you not find it odd that they order Palestinians to leave the land they desire, under the guise of wanting to crush Hamas, as if Hamas couldn't just leave with the civilians to avoid being crushed.

This has been planned for a long time.

I don't doubt that there have been Hamas attacks, but with everything Israel has reported for at least the last 15years (I've been paying attention), what they report as severe attacks are nowhere near, what they report as attacks in previous years have been children throwing stones from 1/2 a mile away (and being shot dead by Israeli forces). There is plenty of footage of this.

For clarity, Hamas is real, but the media is so one-sided and the media is literally all owned by Israel so all the reporting is biased.

If you want to justify a war, you create/embellish/exaggerate something to create rage.

It was certainly aimed at you . Others were prepared to assume you had been living under a rock.

 

i wasn’t and i was right. You have doubled down. And then hit with another anti semitic trope. Shame on you. 

[PistoldPete]

11 hours ago, GboroRam said:

I don't think it changes anything, increasing the scale. If the IRA had killed a thousand, I'd still say wiping out catholic areas is criminal and needs publicly calling out as such. 

That’s your view. If it is a war crime then I assume there will be consequences for Israel if it is true. 
 

the alternative view is that of there is civil war involving mass genocide, it may be the least bad option to separate communities. The partition of India was very much regretted by almost everyone, but things could have been much worse if the nation had descended into civil war. 

[Mostyn6]

14 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

then hit with another anti semitic trope

where? Facts aren't anti-semitic just cos the subject may be Jewish.

[AndyinLiverpool]

41 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

I wondered if anyone would say that. But I left Derby in one direction, and G left Derby in the other direction and I've not seen him for 2 years. I've never subscribed to David's sites/newsletters etc, nor read any of his books in entirety. I'll admit that G's support for Palestine over the years has made me pay closer attention, and aligned with what I know to be dishonest and biased mainstream media in almost everything, I don't believe a word I hear on the news.

I will add though, almost everything about the last few years of Covid, Lockdowns, Vaccines, WEF, Cashless society, was all called out by the likes of The Ickes, all dismissed by people like you, and then proven to be more accurate than how reported by the mainstream. 

But, as they say, "you do you.. hun". I'm happy to be open-minded about these things.

And yet you quote a neo-nazi in support of your argument.

It wasn't Voltaire who said that...

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-voltaire-quote-idUSL1N2UE2LM

[Mostyn6]

6 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

And yet you quote a neo-nazi in support of your argument.

It wasn't Voltaire who said that...

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-voltaire-quote-idUSL1N2UE2LM

fair play on knowing this. I've never had reason to investigate who said something that resonates. Obviously a quote from a horrible person, who I wouldn't align with on principle, however, even evil scumbags can be correct every now and then. Similarly, good people can be wrong. Look how many people believe in different religions. They cannot all be correct. If an evil scumbag looks out of the window and tells you it is raining, the fact he's an evil scumbag doesn't make him incorrect.

[Anon]

10 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

And yet you quote a neo-nazi in support of your argument.

It wasn't Voltaire who said that...

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-voltaire-quote-idUSL1N2UE2LM

It's good to correct the record because it is irritating when a quote is erroneously attributed to someone, but I don't see how it's fair to dismiss what is a rather generic truism because of who originally coined the phrase.

[Jubbs]

On 16/10/2023 at 10:06, David said:

Egypt are reported to be reopening a border for safe passage.

Kinda irrelevant when Israel bomb it.

[ariotofmyown]

1 hour ago, Mostyn6 said:

But I left Derby in one direction

Well, this thread took an unexpected turn. Or am I the only one who didn't know?