Palestine

[sage]

24 minutes ago, sage said:

Apart from undermining domestic democratic institutions and using military victories to expand borders there's no evidence for that.

I think the term fascist is more apt given history.

 

Maybe colonialism is the best term. 

[Ram-Alf]

52 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Wow. And you are a moderator ? I think you are in the wrong job mate.

The ideals of the Nazis and the ideals of Israeli Politicians is to exterminate...what I can only describe as an issue with a hated people in either a Political(Israel) sense or meg·alo·maniac(German)group of people.

There were 1000s of German people who hated the Nazis, The same with Israelis and Netanyahu and Palestinians with Hamas, Destroy your enemy before it destroys you...the trouble is it's the innocents that pay for Politicians decisions...as always😡   

[Turk Thrust]

On 13/10/2023 at 23:22, ramit said:

This took months to plan, there is no way that Israeli authorities were not aware of it, which means that they wanted it.  They wouldn't set up their own people for slaughter I hear you say.  Hamas knew what the response to their brutality would be.  They wouldn't set up their own people for slaughter I hear you say.  Madness and evildoers having their way and the common serfs the ones to suffer as usual.

Ooh, I wonder what colour the sky is in your world.

[Ram-Alf]

1 hour ago, Turk Thrust said:

Ooh, I wonder what colour the sky is in your world.

You've been working in or near Government for some time Turk, There's dark forces out there...I find it hard to believe either the Israelis or the USA with all the intelligence at there disposal...had missed an opportunity. 

As an aside...why would a Hamas terrorist carry secret documents with him 🤷‍♂️

https://news.sky.com/story/top-secret-documents-seen-by-sky-news-suggest-hamas-attack-may-have-been-planned-for-a-year-12984107

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67082047

Edited October 15, 2023 by The Last Post

[Leeds Ram]

It's such a mess born out of decades of mistakes by both sides and international actors. I'll likely be teaching on this at uni in January, and it's really hard to know where to begin. It's easy to simply say It's Israel's fault or It's Palestine's problem, but the grim reality is both actors have f***** this up royally. Israel's very reason for existence makes the case for calling it a 'colonial state' really problematic in my book, especially since if the Palestinians had agreed to the 48 plan, which they didn't, they'd have had a state. The Palestinians have messed up every chance for peace and land they've ever been offered, and the Israelis generally haven't given enough concessions and then clamped down too hard. 

Israel, in the past 30 years, has been needlessly, in my book, expanding and has been overly aggressive towards what is now essentially a dispossessed people. Yet, Hamas' continued presence and, to some extent, their support in the territories (it's really hard to gauge what that really is tbh), as well as others in the region (Iran, Hezbollah, Qatar), means that Israel also has legitimate security risks it needs to keep an eye out for. The very fact the Iron Dome exists and is regularly used is a testament to this fact. 

The only losers are the civilians who are stuck in the middle and everyone else. I do also feel there is a climate of anti-semitism in some of our major cities, which is really bothering me. The police aren't doing anywhere near enough to step up and actually enforce the law which defines the celebration and support of terrorist actors as a criminal offence. Hamas and Hezbollah are not the Palestinian people, but too many who support Palestinian freedom believe they are. 

The real danger is if Hezbollah wade in to make this a two-front war and cause actual regional chaos. Then who knows what happens next and how many people die. 

I think now the best solution is to try and create a more secular one-state solution. A Palestinian state would not be the land of the free and the home of the brave, some people believe. It'd be a corrupt, autocratic, torturing nightmare for 95% of the Palestinians who live there. Just like it is now. It'd be a hotbed of instability, uncertain of its future even if they could carve out an agreement. Israel, for all its faults, is easily the most democratic and free country in the region. If you make the country more secular, undergo a process of consociationalism to balance out the existing democratic institutions and give Palestinians full rights in a new state, I think that's got the best shot at working long term.

Edited October 15, 2023 by Leeds Ram

[Leeds Ram]

On 13/10/2023 at 23:22, ramit said:

This took months to plan, there is no way that Israeli authorities were not aware of it, which means that they wanted it.  They wouldn't set up their own people for slaughter I hear you say.  Hamas knew what the response to their brutality would be.  They wouldn't set up their own people for slaughter I hear you say.  Madness and evildoers having their way and the common serfs the ones to suffer as usual.

The big issue with your analysis is that Netanyahu's whole agenda politically rests on keeping Israel safe. How does inviting the worst attack in Israel's history square up with that? Opinion polls in Israel already find that 4 out of 5 surveyed blame the Israeli government for such a lapse in intelligence. There's absolutely no way the government would risk something like this, especially since, regionally, this puts their historic peace deal with the Saudis under threat. Their calculus is not the same as Hamas, who want to remain relevant, thus needing to retain regional support and a big fight for Palestine alive. 

[ramit]

8 hours ago, Leeds Ram said:

The big issue with your analysis is that Netanyahu's whole agenda politically rests on keeping Israel safe. How does inviting the worst attack in Israel's history square up with that? Opinion polls in Israel already find that 4 out of 5 surveyed blame the Israeli government for such a lapse in intelligence. There's absolutely no way the government would risk something like this, especially since, regionally, this puts their historic peace deal with the Saudis under threat. Their calculus is not the same as Hamas, who want to remain relevant, thus needing to retain regional support and a big fight for Palestine alive. 

Gaza is an open air prison, no one can deny that, Israel monitors everything that happens there, there is no way they didn't know what was coming.

There are bigger issues at stake than keeping all of it's citizens safe, territorial expansion and the idea of Greater Israel and the USA's intent to limit the influence and power of Iran in the region.  To believe that governments will not sacrifice some of their people for other gain is naive IMO.  International deals can be made later when things simmer down is likely the rationale.

[ramit]

9 hours ago, Turk Thrust said:

Ooh, I wonder what colour the sky is in your world.

Same as yours, except I don't wear tinted glasses

[Alph]

1 hour ago, Magicman said:

They were attacked so any response is justified as long as it complies with guidelines set by UN. They are neither nazi nor should they be labelled such given their history. 

Israel were attacked? So they can indiscriminately dropped bombs on Palestinians? 

Israel attacked in 1967. Israel has broken the law over and over. It's excessive military operations have been noted by the UN. The raid on Jenin refugee camp was what, a week? before the festival attack. 

Their border continues to expand. They blockade the people of Gaza. 

Palestinians are not Hamas any more than East Ukrainians are Azov. 

Israel has hundreds of illegal settlements. Illegal even under Israeli law. 700,000 people live in illegal occupied land. UN recognises this as fact

The people of Gaza live in poverty. The unemployment is at 50%. They can't trade, they can't fish, they can't leave. Their skies are patrolled by Israeli fighter jets and their sea is patrolled by Israeli gun boats. They were given 24 hours to abandon their homes with nowhere to go. Leaving behind their dead and injured. 24 hours to evacuate elderly and children. Injured from Israeli assaults. All done with no water, power and very limited fuel.

In West Bank Palestinians face Israeli intimidation and military brutality on a regular basis. They lose their land and are driven back while Israeli settlers build towns. 

But yeah, it all began with a festival attack by terrorists....

Edited October 15, 2023 by Alpha

[Alph]

I do love how this story starts with the festival attack. 

It's almost as if the story was written by the genocidal murderer Netenyahu. Defend themselves in the textbook manner the Romans did. Never started a fight but somehow defended the city of Rome into a vast empire

Shame nobody reads the prequel. It's called 70 years of conflict with chapters including "1967", "billions of dollars in military aid", "illegal occupation" and  "Jenin and other refugee camp raids".

My favourite chapter is "please leave within 24 hours"

Oh wait, you can't.

Edited October 15, 2023 by Alpha

[PistoldPete]

32 minutes ago, Alpha said:

I do love how this story starts with the festival attack. 

It's almost as if the story was written by the genocidal murderer Netenyahu. Defend themselves in the textbook manner the Romans did. Never started a fight but somehow defended the city of Rome into a vast empire

Shame nobody reads the prequel. It's called 70 years of conflict with chapters including "1967", "billions of dollars in military aid", "illegal occupation" and  "Jenin and other refugee camp raids".

My favourite chapter is "please leave within 24 hours"

Oh wait, you can't.

Actually the story began with the Holocaust. Or was the evidence for that not enough for some? 

[Alph]

29 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Actually the story began with the Holocaust. Or was the evidence for that not enough for some? 

No, the story for Palestinians did not begin there. But the talk of a land for Jewish people where they won't be persecuted began before even that. 

However, the persecution of Jewish people shouldn't be the plot armor to deflect from their expansion and illegal occupation. 

You don't just get to do the classic anti-Semitism/holocaust cry to excuse their role in this. Even if you're pro Israel you can't deny their aggressive illegal expansion. It's a fact

 

Edited October 15, 2023 by Alpha

[Turk Thrust]

3 hours ago, The Last Post said:

You've been working in or near Government for some time Turk, There's dark forces out there...I find it hard to believe either the Israelis or the USA with all the intelligence at there disposal...had missed an opportunity. 

As an aside...why would a Hamas terrorist carry secret documents with him 🤷‍♂️

https://news.sky.com/story/top-secret-documents-seen-by-sky-news-suggest-hamas-attack-may-have-been-planned-for-a-year-12984107

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67082047

Of course how silly of me. I should have realised that man hasn’t been on the moon, that 9/11 was actually carried out with the connivance of the Americans, that Thatcher closed more coal mines than Wilson and that the Earth is flat

[Carl Sagan]

I'm not sure there's been a comparable large-scale calculated slaughter of innocents in my lifetime as Hamas going house to house (and the music festival too) machine-gunning, whoever they found, possibly beheading some, including babies and young children, and all just because they are Jews. And kidnapping and raping many. 

It's possible to say that and also say the Israeli treatment of the Palestinians over the years has been terrible. A huge crime. So many Israeli's are against Netanyahu, just as so many Palestinians are against Hamas, but people feel powerless to change things.

Hamas will have known they couldn't invade Israel, killing hundreds or thousands, and not face an invasion back, so I presume they have plans. It will be horrific.

If my grandma or granddaughter had been kidnapped by terrorists and people were demanding I allow those terrorists electricity and water while preparing to fight them, I might not be best pleased, so I do understand that stance, even though it is wrong in terms of the numbers of innocent Palestinians suffering. And let's not forget Egypt is just keeping its head down and keeping the Gaza border firmly closed too, because they hate Hamas as well.

The only long-term solution, is the same solution I have always advocated in Northern Ireland. Do not allow segregated schools. Have Palestinians and Israelis mix as children, seeing that these people they're brought up to hate, are actually just like them. Becoming friends, building bridges and bonds. But it's too late for that at the moment. Sadly, I don't foresee any good solutions, just things getting horribly worse.

I also don't like how this is being played out on the streets of the UK. London at the moment is probably a scary place to be Jewish. Other parts of the country too. Everyone should have the right to feel safe here. We are lucky to live here, but we shouldn't take that for granted and while we can't do anything about what is going on in the Middle East, we need to protect the vulnerable around us.

[Highgate]

49 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Actually the story began with the Holocaust. Or was the evidence for that not enough for some? 

Yeah, not really fair to implicate Palestinians in that. Europeans persecuted Jews for centuries, obviously after the Holocaust the idea of a safe homeland for Jewish people seemed like a great idea.  Nobody could deny that Jewish people deserved a safe place to life, free from European violence and hatreds, and their ancient home of Israel seemed like the ideal place to many.  Unfortunately the idea had one problem, that Jewish homeland was already occupied by Palestinians, whose homeland it was too. 

The Israeli-Palestine War of 1948 is like the 'original sin' of this conflict. After which 700,000 Palestinians fled or were expelled, and Israel took more Palestinian land than even it had proposed in it's original plan.  And those parts it left in Palestinian hands ...it's been settling ever since, or like in Gaza, has left and controls like a giant outdoor prison for Palestinians.  People shouldn't be reluctant to use the word 'colonial' when describing Israel's relationship with the Palestinian people. Move settlers in, push natives out or into a second class existence. Any Jew in the world can arrive in Israel and claim citizenship. A Palestinian born in Jerusalem and living in exile has no right to return.  

Worrying trends in Israel recently are the appearance of real extremists and fundamentalists in it's government (people worse than even Netanyahu), the Israel's finance minister who doesn't believe there is any such thing as Palestinians for example.  That and the alarming demographic rise of ultra-orthodox Jews within the state, who already are at nearly 15% and only set to increase. It's very hard to argue with people who believe that God gave Israel to their particular religion and therefore anyone else living there is merely a squatter.  

Some of what I'm saying might sound like an excuse for Hamas' actions.  It's not, all of their murders are unjustified, much of their ideology is vile and they are only succeeding in making the whole situation worse for Palestinians as well as for Israelis. 

[Magicman]

2 hours ago, Alpha said:

Israel were attacked? So they can indiscriminately dropped bombs on Palestinians? 

Israel attacked in 1967. Israel has broken the law over and over. It's excessive military operations have been noted by the UN. The raid on Jenin refugee camp was what, a week? before the festival attack. 

Their border continues to expand. They blockade the people of Gaza. 

Palestinians are not Hamas any more than East Ukrainians are Azov. 

Israel has hundreds of illegal settlements. Illegal even under Israeli law. 700,000 people live in illegal occupied land. UN recognises this as fact

The people of Gaza live in poverty. The unemployment is at 50%. They can't trade, they can't fish, they can't leave. Their skies are patrolled by Israeli fighter jets and their sea is patrolled by Israeli gun boats. They were given 24 hours to abandon their homes with nowhere to go. Leaving behind their dead and injured. 24 hours to evacuate elderly and children. Injured from Israeli assaults. All done with no water, power and very limited fuel.

In West Bank Palestinians face Israeli intimidation and military brutality on a regular basis. They lose their land and are driven back while Israeli settlers build towns. 

But yeah, it all began with a festival attack by terrorists....

Each attack on Israel will be reason they fight back. 

[PistoldPete]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

No, the story for Palestinians did not begin there. But the talk of a land for Jewish people where they won't be persecuted began before even that. 

However, the persecution of Jewish people shouldn't be the plot armor to deflect from their expansion and illegal occupation. 

You don't just get to do the classic anti-Semitism/holocaust cry to excuse their role in this. Even if you're pro Israel you can't deny their aggressive illegal expansion. It's a fact

 

Holocaust cry? What a mardy bum I am crying over millions being exterminated. 

[Bris Vegas]

I have a friend (born in Ukraine, moved to Tel Aviv as a baby). He is getting his family out of Israel right now. Some of the videos they have shared with me is horrific, and I’ve seen my fair share of Mexican cartel footage.

The world is a pretty messed up place.

Most of the kids today growing up in first world countries don’t know how lucky they have it. Yes they may struggle with rising housing markets. But there are far worse problems out there.

Imagine if there was an alien race monitoring us. They probably look at us the same way we look at wild dogs in the street who kill cats and other animals for straying into their territory.

Edited October 15, 2023 by Bris Vegas

[Alph]

41 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Holocaust cry? What a mardy bum I am crying over millions being exterminated. 

Nice try. 

But this is about Israeli occupation. Israeli aggression. Israel. Not all Jews. Not even the Jews that want to live in peace. Not the Jews against Israel movement. Not about British washing our hands of the whole thing and certainly not about who the original people of the land were a couple of thousand years back. 

I've seen the argument a million times. Jews have been persecuted through history. I know. But that is not an excuse for Israel to defend themselves when they kill Palestinians. And it's boring that there are those that try to put that kind of pressure on anybody who criticises Israel. Do you think all Palestinians want all Jews dead? Do you think I'm a Nazi who celebrates the Holocaust? It's not plot armor. It's like the classic gaslighting argument put forward against anyone who's against Israel. How is it relevant? Do you really think people have forgotten the Holocaust? Really? I don't get the purpose of your original comment? 

Just as Hamas can't excuse their crimes by pointing to breaches of international law and excusing the killing of children by saying they're invaders on Palestinian land. I've not tried to justify them

[Alph]

1 hour ago, Magicman said:

Each attack on Israel will be reason they fight back. 

What? 

Does this apply to Russia and Ukraine? Every attack on Russian Front lines deserves a disproportionate response from Russia? 

Have a look at the 1967 war. 

Explain to me how in the following decades Israeli expansion is defensive 

How there are 700,000 illegal settlers in West Bank. How settling is encouraged by Israel. 

How can you claim it's self defence and response to attacks. Even the disgusting festival attack came a week after the Jenin refugee attack which was condemned by the UN. 

I understand that Israel do have to defend themselves and continue to hunt Hamas and other terrorist groups.

But that just not what they do. Any interactive map of the last 70 years will show that they don't just "defend and respond"

The UN themselves have condemned Israel. https://www.diakonia.se/ihl/news/excessive-force-a-legal-analysis-of-israels-operation-in-jenin-refugee-camp/

What's the number of civilian deaths in Gaza now? 2,500?