Palestine

[Carl Sagan]

Reading this thread I can't help thinking religion is the root of many terrible evils in the world, and that's the case here. In my youth I was really thrilled that the UK was fast becoming a secular country where rationality should soon win out over religious fervour, but probably the biggest downside of immigration to the UK has been a rise in religious belief and religious fundamentalism. It's both dangerous and worrying. Of course there are good and decent religious people, but many others are effectively medieval nutters. When the media talks about radicalizing children, they conveniently overlook that this is effectively the point of much organized religion of all types.

Meaning there are some Muslims who want to wipe out all the Jews simply because they're Jews. And there are some Jews who think they're God's chosen people on Earth and can do no wrong.

When the basis for a dispute is so irrational, it's incredibly hard to find a solution. I think/hope everyone on this thread condemns all the killing, but my guess is this thread will have to be pulled soon because of how some people see the issue.

[PistoldPete]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

Nice try. 

But this is about Israeli occupation. Israeli aggression. Israel. Not all Jews. Not even the Jews that want to live in peace. Not the Jews against Israel movement. Not about British washing our hands of the whole thing and certainly not about who the original people of the land were a couple of thousand years back. 

I've seen the argument a million times. Jews have been persecuted through history. I know. But that is not an excuse for Israel to defend themselves when they kill Palestinians. And it's boring that there are those that try to put that kind of pressure on anybody who criticises Israel. Do you think all Palestinians want all Jews dead? Do you think I'm a Nazi who celebrates the Holocaust? It's not plot armor. It's like the classic gaslighting argument put forward against anyone who's against Israel. How is it relevant? Do you really think people have forgotten the Holocaust? Really? I don't get the purpose of your original comment? 

Just as Hamas can't excuse their crimes by pointing to breaches of international law and excusing the killing of children by saying they're invaders on Palestinian land. I've not tried to justify them

There are people who quite genuinely deny that the Holocaust happened. And people with similar agenda who deny the Hamas terrorist attacks happened (including at least one on this forum for example). There are some who refuse to accept that anti semitism is racism (Whoopi Goldberg for one). The very idea that Israelis could possibly be the victims seems anathema to some. 

People who criticise Israel generally criticise no other country apart from Israel. Why is that? 

So no I do not accept that people who do nothing but criticise Israel are not biased and prejudiced in their views and that, especially given the root cause of that bias  is anti semitism in my view.

[ramit]

8 hours ago, PistoldPete said:

There are people who quite genuinely deny that the Holocaust happened. And people with similar agenda who deny the Hamas terrorist attacks happened (including at least one on this forum for example). There are some who refuse to accept that anti semitism is racism (Whoopi Goldberg for one). The very idea that Israelis could possibly be the victims seems anathema to some. 

People who criticise Israel generally criticise no other country apart from Israel. Why is that? 

So no I do not accept that people who do nothing but criticise Israel are not biased and prejudiced in their views and that, especially given the root cause of that bias  is anti semitism in my view.

Being Jewish is being of a certain religion, there are Jews of differing origins.  This antisemitism exclaim whenever Israel is criticized is getting really old and was never justified to begin with, it is a cop out, an excuse for Israel to act in ways other nations would never be tolerated to behave and where do you get the idea that those who criticize Israel criticize no other country?

[GboroRam]

8 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

There are people who quite genuinely deny that the Holocaust happened. And people with similar agenda who deny the Hamas terrorist attacks happened (including at least one on this forum for example). There are some who refuse to accept that anti semitism is racism (Whoopi Goldberg for one). The very idea that Israelis could possibly be the victims seems anathema to some. 

People who criticise Israel generally criticise no other country apart from Israel. Why is that? 

So no I do not accept that people who do nothing but criticise Israel are not biased and prejudiced in their views and that, especially given the root cause of that bias  is anti semitism in my view.

I don't see how it can only be antisemitism. 

Are antisemites using the situation to call for death to Israelis? Yes, of course. 

Is the deaths of thousands of civilians a suitable response to the death of thousands of civilians?

I just find it utterly unavoidable that treating a nation as third class citizens causes an angry backlash from extremists. It's stirring the hornet's nest - there was never going to be anything other than a call for extremist response. 

Whatever you believe, I can't see how killing thousands of innocent bystanders is justifiable. But Britain, the US and other western supporters of Israel are prepared to ignore international censure and still get behind it. 

[Gaspode]

I saw a suggestion (that I've not seen on this thread, though I've not read it all as it seems to be another 'discussion' that has deteriorated into a name-calling pissing contest) that the Hamas attack was proposed/funded/planned by Iran - apparently Israel and Saudi have been on far better terms in the past 6 months which has been worrying the Iranian leadership (who want to maintain the Islamic good/Western (non-Islamic) bad rhetoric).

Whether there's any truth in that I have no idea, but at face value, I struggle to see how Hamas felt they had anything to gain from the attacks - the influence of another player in the Middle Eastern dispute may have been enough to push them to do something so utterly stupid....though hearing their leadership calling (when Israel announced they'd be invading Gaza) on people to stay at home (effectively telling them to remain there and become martyrs for the cause) suggests that stupidity is pretty high on their list of qualities....

[Alph]

7 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

There are people who quite genuinely deny that the Holocaust happened. And people with similar agenda who deny the Hamas terrorist attacks happened (including at least one on this forum for example). There are some who refuse to accept that anti semitism is racism (Whoopi Goldberg for one). The very idea that Israelis could possibly be the victims seems anathema to some. 

People who criticise Israel generally criticise no other country apart from Israel. Why is that? 

So no I do not accept that people who do nothing but criticise Israel are not biased and prejudiced in their views and that, especially given the root cause of that bias  is anti semitism in my view.

I'm not sure I understand? I think there's many like myself that

know what Hamas/Hezbollah etc do. Understand Israel's need to combat these threats

don't deny the Holocaust, aren't antisemitic

blame Britain for it's terrible handling of the initial Jew/Arab conflicts after WW2. 

Blame USA for it's encouragement and funding of Israeli expansion. Never mind it's hypocrisy

Are angry with the UN's lack of action. And indeed the world's lack of concern for the run of play for at least 50 years

Consider Israel to be aggressive expansionists based on many blatant factors.

Think the media coverage is bias and paints the image of a fair fight, only becomes mainstream when there's a response from Hamas, Hezbollah. 

.... I think that represents the views of many Pro Palestinian supporters. I don't think that's unfair. 

Of course antisemitism exists. What we are seeing around the world is disgusting anti Semitic attacks. Ignorant that not every Jew is a pro-Israel supporter never mind the complexity to the religion 

Likewise though you will find Islamophobia. As we've seen in the past with attacks around the world on innocent Muslims after terrorist attacks. 

It always seems to me a gaslighting thing to accuse anyone anti Israel to also be anti Jew when there's so much evidence that Israel are an aggressive military force that break laws. It's not like it's a weak argument for Nazis to cling onto. 

[BaaLocks]

19 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

People who criticise Israel generally criticise no other country apart from Israel.

Have any examples to share? Otherwise, all you have really done is set up a false opposition to then justify your counter view which - if unsupported - is fundamentally flawed.

[GboroRam]

1 hour ago, Carl Sagan said:

Reading this thread I can't help thinking religion is the root of many terrible evils in the world, and that's the case here. In my youth I was really thrilled that the UK was fast becoming a secular country where rationality should soon win out over religious fervour, but probably the biggest downside of immigration to the UK has been a rise in religious belief and religious fundamentalism. It's both dangerous and worrying. Of course there are good and decent religious people, but many others are effectively medieval nutters. When the media talks about radicalizing children, they conveniently overlook that this is effectively the point of much organized religion of all types.

Meaning there are some Muslims who want to wipe out all the Jews simply because they're Jews. And there are some Jews who think they're God's chosen people on Earth and can do no wrong.

When the basis for a dispute is so irrational, it's incredibly hard to find a solution. I think/hope everyone on this thread condemns all the killing, but my guess is this thread will have to be pulled soon because of how some people see the issue.

Religion is only part of it, though. You've got Jews who aren't religious, you've got Palestinians who just want their land returned. It's now more about nationalism than religion, much as the troubles in Northern Ireland are about catholic vs protestant, but very much about national identity and not really about religion. 

These lands were home for Arab Muslims and Jews for thousands of years. Colonisation is correct, but an aggressive colonisation by a hugely superior military. 

[Alph]

Oh the idea that Israel faked or planned the festival attack I do hate. Because it actually is harmful for Palestine that people would try and paint Hamas as anything other than Iranian funded terrorists hellbent on destroying Israel. 

It was Hamas. They're pretty clear in their goals and what they call civilians who choose to settle on land they see as Palestine. 

All the conspiracy stuff, even if true (which I don't believe), only has us arguing about 1 event rather than a 70 year conflict.

I feel like standing arguing that Israel killed their own people just undermines the real concern for Gaza. Hamas are certainly capable! 

9/11 had a stronger conspiracy theory!! 

[Highgate]

30 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

People who criticise Israel generally criticise no other country apart from Israel. Why is that? 

That's an astonishing claim really.   

I really don't think it's anywhere close to being true. 

[Highgate]

6 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Religion is only part of it, though. You've got Jews who aren't religious, you've got Palestinians who just want their land returned. It's now more about nationalism than religion, much as the troubles in Northern Ireland are about catholic vs protestant, but very much about national identity and not really about religion. 

These lands were home for Arab Muslims and Jews for thousands of years. Colonisation is correct, but an aggressive colonisation by a hugely superior military. 

That's absolutely spot on, it's amazing how many people still cite 20th century Northern Ireland as a religious conflict.  Nevertheless, I think @Carl Sagan's idea about integrating the school systems is a very good one, for any divided society.  

[Alph]

@PistoldPete I apologise if I was a bit rude in my "cry Holocaust" comment. I didn't mean it how it came across. Its the most brutal episode of human history and I know how Jews have been treated through history around the world. I do know they need to defend themselves in the Middle East. 

 

[Comrade 86]

The Israeli government is a f****** disgrace and Hamas little better. Inarguable. Sadly, there's a lot of innocent Palestinians and Israelis caught betwixt and between. So it ever was, so it ever will be. This won't end well.

 

[Carl Sagan]

26 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Religion is only part of it, though. You've got Jews who aren't religious, you've got Palestinians who just want their land returned. It's now more about nationalism than religion, much as the troubles in Northern Ireland are about catholic vs protestant, but very much about national identity and not really about religion. 

These lands were home for Arab Muslims and Jews for thousands of years. Colonisation is correct, but an aggressive colonisation by a hugely superior military. 

Perhaps you are right about the situation in the Middle East, but here in London, especially in east London, it's almost all about religion. Which makes the spillover to the UK dangerous because people cannot be reasoned with.

I don't understand the colonization comment, but there's a lot of rubbish talked about colonizing and decolonizing generally. For a long time I did see the Middle East situation almost akin to that where aliens had a base on Earth with vastly superior technology (ie the Israeli military), meaning  humans (ie the Palestinians) simply had no power to cause them harm. But the Hamas attack points to a possible step change in weaponry. After America's chaotic retreat from Afghanistan, leaving behind their equipment to make the Taliban the world's third-best-equipped army, some have said portions of those armaments have made their way to Hamas. Others have simply suggested Hamas expected Hezbollah and Iran to join them, but those parties were scared off by the threats. Of maybe it is religious in Gaza, and these people want to die a glorious martyr's death, going out in a blaze of perceived glory. Not caring about those around them?

[Ram-Alf]

14 minutes ago, Carl Sagan said:

Of maybe it is religious in Gaza, and these people want to die a glorious martyr's death, going out in a blaze of perceived glory. Not caring about those around them?

For me religion is only a part of this chaotic situation, The biggest portion belongs to the ground we all walk on, Take the Crusades away as that was a religious act, Most incursions/land grabs are all about the soil we wail on, There's a Nationalistic fervour in lots of us and if someone was to take your land...you'd fight for it, Being occupied is one thing, Being moved away can/will bread hatred, If your family is killed on either side those seeds of hatred have already been sawn...a never ending circle.  

[cstand]

24 minutes ago, The Last Post said:

For me religion is only a part of this chaotic situation, The biggest portion belongs to the ground we all walk on, Take the Crusades away as that was a religious act, Most incursions/land grabs are all about the soil we wail on, There's a Nationalistic fervour in lots of us and if someone was to take your land...you'd fight for it, Being occupied is one thing, Being moved away can/will bread hatred, If your family is killed on either side those seeds of hatred have already been sawn...a never ending circle.  

Put these women in charge it’s about the only hope of a peaceful solution. 

 

 

https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-761604

 

https://theelders.org/programmes/spark-hope-women-wage-peace

Edited October 15, 2023 by cstand

[Stive Pesley]

I think that it's heartening (and what I'd expect) to see that most people recognise the difference between the actions of state/governments and the innocent populace, and simply want to see peace and an end to bloodshed on both sides, but Is it worth reminding certain posters that religion is a prohibited topic, as there do seem to be undertones of islamaphobia and anti-semitism from some?

 

Quote

 

Prohibited Content

- religion 

 

 

[Ramarena]

On 13/10/2023 at 13:39, Highgate said:

Seems perfectly reasonable to me to be a critic of both Israel's entirely unjust and downright colonial treatment of Palestinians since 1948, and a critic of years of Hamas' disgraceful and inhuman attacks on civilians culminating in this latest atrocity. 

I have absolutely no idea how this can get any better...it's always been such a ticking time tomb. 

 

 

Think this pretty much sums it up for me. 

 

[Archied]

For me the mistake is mixing up religion and extremism, extremism is on the rise around the world on all sides and it seems in pretty much most subjects , you see it in this country with the polarisation of people and a lack of ability and desire to ever find any common ground 

[PistoldPete]

2 hours ago, GboroRam said:

I don't see how it can only be antisemitism. 

Are antisemites using the situation to call for death to Israelis? Yes, of course. 

Is the deaths of thousands of civilians a suitable response to the death of thousands of civilians?

I just find it utterly unavoidable that treating a nation as third class citizens causes an angry backlash from extremists. It's stirring the hornet's nest - there was never going to be anything other than a call for extremist response. 

Whatever you believe, I can't see how killing thousands of innocent bystanders is justifiable. But Britain, the US and other western supporters of Israel are prepared to ignore international censure and still get behind it. 

Well even here there is for me evidence of bias. People have talked about Israel's "indiscriminate " killing of civilians.  That is nonsense. The harsh reality of war is that civilians always end up as casualties. But they are not targeted (as Hamas did with their attacks). You cannot compare it as being a like for like, as if one was as bad as the other.