Palestine

[Alph]

#freePalestine. 

 

I knew starting a thread would be controversial and probably end with me banned so I didn't. But Hamas are not the Palestinian people. Many in Gaza are trapped in every possible way a person can be trapped. 

Hamas deserved everything they'll get and more. Iranian funded terrorists who don't care about Palestine as much as they care about destroying Israel. They don't have the interest of Palestine in their minds. However, they have driven out the pathetic infighting Palestinian attempts at authority so you can see why recruiting angry young men is easy work for them. 

But the wider war. Well, invasion. Occupation is by America's dog. Netenyahu probably cracked one off when he heard about that terrorist attack on innocent Israelis. 

They don't need any excuse to build illegal settlements in West Bank. They don't need any excuses to expand their borders for 70 years. They just mutter something about biblical age and swallow more land.

Now they have something of an excuse to starve and squeeze Gaza. To drop bombs on civilians. They're not terrorists though. Just defending themselves.

Very reasonable to cut off the legs of the people of Gaza and then tell them to run. Where? No their problem. Just run before they come and steal more land. Or spend those American dollars by killing Palestinian children to right Hamas' wrong. 

Tbf they did pull out the bible to explain why it's rightfully their land. And the native (lol) Americans support it with billions of dollars. 

[Alph]

3 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

Or the slaughter of civilians at a music festival in the name of their god?

A terrorist attack. But the people of Palestine will pay for it. Israel will expand again. More illegal towns and villages. 

The way to respond to a terrorist attack is not to indiscriminately drop bombs on a population of suffering people. A population you starve of human rights. A population you treat as "human animals" 

But we know how this goes. Israel expand, Palestinians suffer with nowhere to go and no future. Israel gets another few billion in aid. Palestinians can't even turn a tap on without Netenyahu giving permission. West Bank sees another illegal settlement. Just another day. 

Hamas are terrorists. No doubt. They gained power in 2006 tragically can't be challenged. Not that anybody is interested in actually finding a solution for Palestinian people. 

[Ram-Alf]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

A terrorist attack. But the people of Palestine will pay for it. Israel will expand again. More illegal towns and villages. 

The way to respond to a terrorist attack is not to indiscriminately drop bombs on a population of suffering people. A population you starve of human rights. A population you treat as "human animals" 

But we know how this goes. Israel expand, Palestinians suffer with nowhere to go and no future. Israel gets another few billion in aid. Palestinians can't even turn a tap on without Netenyahu giving permission. West Bank sees another illegal settlement. Just another day. 

Hamas are terrorists. No doubt. They gained power in 2006 tragically can't be challenged. Not that anybody is interested in actually finding a solution for Palestinian people. 

It's one hell of a whole sh!t show that's for sure.

And yet history shows our British government had a hand in this mess, After the Ottoman empire was beaten after WW1 we were charged in looking after Palestine with a small minority of Jewish peoples, With the rise of antisemitism after WW1 more and more Jews wanted a homeland...Palestine fitted the bill, Now there is a mix of Muslim and Jewish people who couldn't exist so Palestine was cut in half...West Bank and Gaza.

Conflict after conflict, War after war ending with Israel giving Lebanon, Syria and Egypt a bloody nose in the 6 day war in 1967, The West Bank and Golan Heights going to the winner, Israel with as you say the backing of the USA encroached on more land of the Palestinians.

If you steal my land I'll fight you for it, Unfortunately...Iran/Syria are backing Hamas a recognised terrorist group, There's been bloodshed in Germany already, There's been demonstrations in the UK and there's more expected this weekend, There is no answer, Israel want to expand and drive the Palestinians out, The toothless UN can not stop this, Butchery and murder on both sides will only be condemned by the West but clandestine support will go to Israel...imo.

2.1million Palestinians are not all Hamas fanatics...but where do they go?  

[Highgate]

Seems perfectly reasonable to me to be a critic of both Israel's entirely unjust and downright colonial treatment of Palestinians since 1948, and a critic of years of Hamas' disgraceful and inhuman attacks on civilians culminating in this latest atrocity. 

I have absolutely no idea how this can get any better...it's always been such a ticking time tomb. 

 

 

[Alph]

1 hour ago, The Last Post said:

It's one hell of a whole sh!t show that's for sure.

And yet history shows our British government had a hand in this mess, After the Ottoman empire was beaten after WW1 we were charged in looking after Palestine with a small minority of Jewish peoples, With the rise of antisemitism after WW1 more and more Jews wanted a homeland...Palestine fitted the bill, Now there is a mix of Muslim and Jewish people who couldn't exist so Palestine was cut in half...West Bank and Gaza.

Conflict after conflict, War after war ending with Israel giving Lebanon, Syria and Egypt a bloody nose in the 6 day war in 1967, The West Bank and Golan Heights going to the winner, Israel with as you say the backing of the USA encroached on more land of the Palestinians.

If you steal my land I'll fight you for it, Unfortunately...Iran/Syria are backing Hamas a recognised terrorist group, There's been bloodshed in Germany already, There's been demonstrations in the UK and there's more expected this weekend, There is no answer, Israel want to expand and drive the Palestinians out, The toothless UN can not stop this, Butchery and murder on both sides will only be condemned by the West but clandestine support will go to Israel...imo.

2.1million Palestinians are not all Hamas fanatics...but where do they go?  

For Palestinians in Gaza it seems hopeless. 

Born into poverty, Israel controls their sea and sky. Israel controls their trade, their water and power. They can't leave. They have no future. Their children have no future. There's no America looking out for their freedom and democracy. Nobody to protect their human rights. Nobody is looking for a two state solution. There's no peace process. Israel settle on land illegally and expand based on ancient borders!! The UN tut and America sends another billion. 

It's not hard to imagine why Hamas were a choice in 2006. Either Hamas or weak infighting Palestinian Authority. They never stood a chance. They're doomed and nobody wants to help them. 

[Stive Pesley]

3 hours ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

Or the slaughter of civilians at a music festival in the name of their god?

Yeah quite, I'm not in anyway condoning Hamas attacks Andy and nor do I condone Israel seemingly perpetrating acts of genocide on Palestine in retaliation. 

There has to be a political settlement and the end of the occupation. No more death please!

Edited October 13, 2023 by Stive Pesley

[Ram-Alf]

10 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

 

There has to be a political settlement and the end of the occupation. No more death please!

Where is the Political settlement going to come from...Saudi Arabia maybe🤷‍♂️, Hamas want the destruction of Israel, Israel want's the destruction of Hamas, How do you stop radicals/religious zealots?, A 100 years so far, If Hamas is beaten there'll be another group to fill the void, The West has to threaten sanctions on Israel but the Hawks in the US Government will not allow that, They sit safe and well in their estates and mansions while death in there 1000s continue.

I still find it odd that with all the security and intelligence at Israel's hand and the West's knowledge they didn't see this coming, Word on the grapevine is Roosevelt knew Pearl Harbour was going to be attacked through British intelligence, Let an atrocity happen and that gives you the reason to go in...something aint right here.

[Alph]

There won't be a happy ending though @Stive Pesley

Western leaders spoke with more enthusiasm about Israel's right to defend itself than they've spoken about the 700,000 illegal Israeli settlers in the 300(?) Settlements in West Bank. And a think, if I remember correctly that around 150 of them are illegal even to Israel (which seems absurd). Or the attacks on Palestinian refugee camps. 

They were more enthusiastic about Israel's right to defend itself than they were eager to condemn the retaliation from what I've seen. 

I don't think any of the talk about two state solution, and peace process have ever been more than talk. There's no attempt to stop Israel expanding. They have 300,000 troops mobilised to assault Gaza, don't they? And they'll do whatever they like there. They always do 

[Stive Pesley]

14 minutes ago, The Last Post said:

Where is the Political settlement going to come from...Saudi Arabia maybe🤷‍♂️, Hamas want the destruction of Israel, Israel want's the destruction of Hamas, How do you stop radicals/religious zealots?, A 100 years so far, If Hamas is beaten there'll be another group to fill the void, The West has to threaten sanctions on Israel but the Hawks in the US Government will not allow that, They sit safe and well in their estates and mansions while death in there 1000s continue.

I still find it odd that with all the security and intelligence at Israel's hand and the West's knowledge they didn't see this coming, Word on the grapevine is Roosevelt knew Pearl Harbour was going to be attacked through British intelligence, Let an atrocity happen and that gives you the reason to go in...something aint right here.

It all feels deeply odd - as you say, given that the current situation has been brewing since at least 1948

Pertinent in the Ukraine thread I guess because it's interesting to compare the media coverage and public perception of the two conflicts

In the midst of the horror, this kind of made me laugh but not in a good way

 

[uttoxram75]

4 hours ago, Stive Pesley said:

Seems to have gone a little quiet

Any other wars going on that involve oppressive empires occupying neighbours territory illegally?

A bit of history about how Hamas started….

https://tribune.com.pk/story/2302309/how-and-why-israel-helped-create-hamas?amp=1

[Alph]

An example of the dog off it's lead. There are plenty more 

 

https://www.diakonia.se/ihl/news/excessive-force-a-legal-analysis-of-israels-operation-in-jenin-refugee-camp/

 

The response from UK and USA was the predictable rhetoric. 

Russia should really change their flag to the star of David 

Edited October 13, 2023 by Alpha

[GboroRam]

I've split the above posts from the Ukraine thread. While there are some common themes I don't think it makes sense to be all in one thread. 

As always this thread will be monitored closely so, be excellent to each other (and party on, dudes). Failure to be excellent to each other will see the thread pulled. 

[Tamworthram]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

For Palestinians in Gaza it seems hopeless. 

Born into poverty, Israel controls their sea and sky. Israel controls their trade, their water and power. They can't leave. They have no future. Their children have no future. There's no America looking out for their freedom and democracy. Nobody to protect their human rights. Nobody is looking for a two state solution. There's no peace process. Israel settle on land illegally and expand based on ancient borders!! The UN tut and America sends another billion. 

It's not hard to imagine why Hamas were a choice in 2006. Either Hamas or weak infighting Palestinian Authority. They never stood a chance. They're doomed and nobody wants to help them. 

Of course you’re right but, amongst the terrible woes of the Palestinian people, you failed to mention how Hamas seem to be happy to use them as pawns. Everyone in the world must have know that the atrocities committed by Hamas would result in equal, or worse, atrocities committed by Israel. I can’t see any good guys in this terrible situation. Just villains and innocent victims. 

[Archied]

20 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I've split the above posts from the Ukraine thread. While there are some common themes I don't think it makes sense to be all in one thread. 

As always this thread will be monitored closely so, be excellent to each other (and party on, dudes). Failure to be excellent to each other will see the thread pulled. 

As a moderator you will be pleased to know that personally I believe this thread / topic just far too emotive and far to complicated to be dissected on a football forum ,

It is a s*** show and the death , cruelty and lack of humanity turns my stomach , like others I have taken an interest in how this has developed since the Second World War but I don’t know how this all ends , I have no intention of trying to debate it , my bet is this topic will slide quickly into side taking and or accusations of side taking ,, best of luck moderating it 

[AndyinLiverpool]

4 minutes ago, Archied said:

As a moderator you will be pleased to know that personally I believe this thread / topic just far too emotive and far to complicated to be dissected on a football forum ,

It is a s*** show and the death , cruelty and lack of humanity turns my stomach , like others I have taken an interest in how this has developed since the Second World War but I don’t know how this all ends , I have no intention of trying to debate it , my bet is this topic will slide quickly into side taking and or accusations of side taking ,, best of luck moderating it 

It is too complex for sides. The nuances are too numerous, the rights and wrongs too diffuse.

[Day]

I take the side of all the innocent people getting blown up and murdered whilst trying to peacefully live their lives.

Stop killing people ffs.

[Grumpy Git]

Has a country that's had a woman in the top job ever started a war, (apart from Thatcher v the working class)?

[Ram-Alf]

1 hour ago, Stive Pesley said:

It all feels deeply odd - as you say, given that the current situation has been brewing since at least 1948

Pertinent in the Ukraine thread I guess because it's interesting to compare the media coverage and public perception of the two conflicts

In the midst of the horror, this kind of made me laugh but not in a good way

 

The whole worlds a sh!t show, Whatever opinion you have on whatever subject there is...you can/will be shouted down, The guy who said "no English" was spot on...😁

[Ram-Alf]

13 minutes ago, Grumpy Git said:

Has a country that's had a woman in the top job ever started a war, (apart from Thatcher v the working class)?

Golda Meir Israel PM during the Yom Kippur war in 1973

Just to add

50 years to the day that Hamas attacked also...2023...coincidence 🤷‍♂️

Edited October 13, 2023 by The Last Post

[AndyinLiverpool]

7 minutes ago, The Last Post said:

Golda Meir Israel PM during the Yom Kippur war in 1973

Israel didn't start that war