Palestine

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

9 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Well even here there is for me evidence of bias. People have talked about Israel's "indiscriminate " killing of civilians.  That is nonsense. The harsh reality of war is that civilians always end up as casualties. But they are not targeted (as Hamas did with their attacks). You cannot compare it as being a like for like, as if one was as bad as the other.  


 

What I saw last night as people were forced out of their homes en masse then obliterated during their 'safe passage 'window would suggest otherwise very strongly.

[Alph]

2,600 dead apparently so far. Next phase of attack is incoming they say

 

[Rev]

 

 

[PistoldPete]

12 hours ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

What I saw last night as people were forced out of their homes en masse then obliterated during their 'safe passage 'window would suggest otherwise very strongly.

Israel are obviously not targeting civilians. Why are other countries not helping to provide a safe passage? 

[Day]

25 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Why are other countries not helping to provide a safe passage? 

Egypt are reported to be reopening a border for safe passage.

[Leeds Ram]

19 hours ago, Alpha said:

No, the story for Palestinians did not begin there. But the talk of a land for Jewish people where they won't be persecuted began before even that. 

However, the persecution of Jewish people shouldn't be the plot armor to deflect from their expansion and illegal occupation. 

You don't just get to do the classic anti-Semitism/holocaust cry to excuse their role in this. Even if you're pro Israel you can't deny their aggressive illegal expansion. It's a fact

 

But you can't ignore an actor's legitimate feelings of threat when discussing this question without fully understanding or solving the problem. Nor can you pretend the Palestinians have simply been the victims of an aggressive expansionist drive; it's more complicated than that. There is a reason the Palestinian leadership didn't accept peace and land deals when they've been offered all the way back to 1948 at the ofttimes officially cited beginning of this conflict. It's because they genuinely believe they could get a better offer and they could even drive Israel into the sea, i.e., destroy it. Have you never heard of the chant 'From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free'? a chant, btw which the PLO only agreed to stop using after Oslo. 

You are not wrong in saying Israel has expanded and, over the past 25 years, has been needlessly aggressive, and what could once be counted as a legitimate defensive strategy has morphed into, I think, something else. Israel's alliances and military might make threats to destroy it look ridiculous, or at least ridiculous to me on the outside. But then again, I'm not surrounded by many people in neighbouring countries who's official rhetoric and everyday attitudes range from the mildly bigoted to the outrightly genocidal. 

The rise of ultra-orthodox forces and a harder right in Israeli politics maps onto general geopolitical forces in the region and across the world, but it has also produced a much more difficult line on Palestine. As I've said in a previous post, I think the best shot at peace is reconfiguring Israel, as opposed to creating what would be an autocratic Palestine. 

[PistoldPete]

1 hour ago, David said:

Egypt are reported to be reopening a border for safe passage.

Good, some good news for once. 

[Alph]

16 hours ago, Rev said:

 

 

Always instantly triggered by any argument on this that begins 3,000 years ago. 

Another point was that he said "In 1967 there was an attack in Israel. But the debate has always been whether Israel was acting first in self defence or was the aggressor. That Israel struck first is not for debate. They did. At Egypt

Another issue is he says that Israel handed over Gaza to Palestinian control. Now that implies that they didn't still have a tight grip on Gaza. Yes, Gaza is still not in Israeli control. Unless you count minor things like travel, trade, water, fuel, electricity etc. If you count those things then Israel with it's navy and air force do control Gaza

We also talked about 100 enclaves of settlements. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/06/israel-occupation-50-years-of-dispossession/

https://www.un.org/unispal/in-facts-and-figures/

Also, again likes the story to begin with the festival attack but no mention of Jenin refugee raid. https://www.diakonia.se/ihl/news/excessive-force-a-legal-analysis-of-israels-operation-in-jenin-refugee-camp/

Another interesting insight https://press.un.org/en/2016/sc12657.doc.htm

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2021/5/19/a-history-of-the-us-blocking-un-resolutions-against-israel

 

He also is very quick to gloss over the first and second intifada. Confirming his bias. 

As soon as it starts with 3,000 years ago you know. He tried to hide his bias but he's about as neutral as me.

[PistoldPete]

22 hours ago, BaaLocks said:

Have any examples to share? Otherwise, all you have really done is set up a false opposition to then justify your counter view which - if unsupported - is fundamentally flawed.

We will risk straying into politics which is verboten on this forum. There has recently been a high profile  investigation into anti semitism in the Uk, that is all that I will say. 

[Rev]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

Always instantly triggered by any argument on this that begins 3,000 years ago. 

Another point was that he said "In 1967 there was an attack in Israel. But the debate has always been whether Israel was acting first in self defence or was the aggressor. That Israel struck first is not for debate. They did. At Egypt

Another issue is he says that Israel handed over Gaza to Palestinian control. Now that implies that they didn't still have a tight grip on Gaza. Yes, Gaza is still not in Israeli control. Unless you count minor things like travel, trade, water, fuel, electricity etc. If you count those things then Israel with it's navy and air force do control Gaza

We also talked about 100 enclaves of settlements. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/06/israel-occupation-50-years-of-dispossession/

https://www.un.org/unispal/in-facts-and-figures/

Also, again likes the story to begin with the festival attack but no mention of Jenin refugee raid. https://www.diakonia.se/ihl/news/excessive-force-a-legal-analysis-of-israels-operation-in-jenin-refugee-camp/

Another interesting insight https://press.un.org/en/2016/sc12657.doc.htm

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2021/5/19/a-history-of-the-us-blocking-un-resolutions-against-israel

 

He also is very quick to gloss over the first and second intifada. Confirming his bias. 

As soon as it starts with 3,000 years ago you know. He tried to hide his bias but he's about as neutral as me.

I'm just dipping my toe in the subject really, so the reading list is much appreciated.  

It goes without saying that I automatically doubt all words that spring from Alistair Campbells lips.

[Day]

54 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

We will risk straying into politics which is verboten on this forum. There has recently been a high profile  investigation into anti semitism in the Uk, that is all that I will say. 

Have you witnessed any antisemitism on this forum? I can't say I have as they would be banned as it would not be tolerated. 

I haven't seen one person defend Hamas, not one.

They are terrorists. Forget forum rules, if anyone was to glorify what they have done/doing in anyway, the next knock at the door could be from the Police.

Dropping bombs, capturing and murdering innocent civilians is wrong, doesn't matter which side of the conflict they are coming from. It's wrong.

Criticising those actions is not antisemitism, nor is it islamophobia.

Just a final point, there is absolutely no reason this topic should even come close to UK party politics.

[Rev]

 

 

[PistoldPete]

17 minutes ago, David said:

Have you witnessed any antisemitism on this forum? I can't say I have as they would be banned as it would not be tolerated. 

I haven't seen one person defend Hamas, not one.

They are terrorists. Forget forum rules, if anyone was to glorify what they have done/doing in anyway, the next knock at the door could be from the Police.

Dropping bombs, capturing and murdering innocent civilians is wrong, doesn't matter which side of the conflict they are coming from. It's wrong.

Criticising those actions is not antisemitism, nor is it islamophobia.

Just a final point, there is absolutely no reason this topic should even come close to UK party politics.

We have had one poster say there was no evidence of the Hamas attacks. We have had one poster liken Israel to the Nazis . Both are anti semitic posts in my view. The first akin to Holocaust denial the latter well tone deaf would be putting it mildly. 

As for Uk party politics I am afraid to say that that does seem to influence people’s view of Israel. People live in echo chambers and what they choose to believe is influenced by their party politics, sadly. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by PistoldPete

[Alph]

1 hour ago, Rev said:

I'm just dipping my toe in the subject really, so the reading list is much appreciated.  

It goes without saying that I automatically doubt all words that spring from Alistair Campbells lips.

Yeah I wasn't like trying to dig you out. Or even argue with a lot with the video. I just thought it a touch glossy over some important events and the 1967 thing is wrong 

There was another interview someone linked me to that they found useful. I'll try to find it. 

I don't know if it's perhaps more the other way. To my ears it sounds neutral but I am biased. I try to rein it in but being angry at America and Israel comes too easy

Edited October 16, 2023 by Alpha

[Day]

37 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

We have had one poster say there was no evidence of the Hamas attacks. We have had one poster liken Israel to the Nazis . Both are anti semitic posts in my view. The first akin to Holocaust denial the latter well tone deaf would be putting it mildly. 

As for Uk party politics I am afraid to say that that does seem to influence people’s view of Israel. People live in echo chambers and what they choose to believe is influenced by their party politics, sadly. 

Antisemitism is hostility/hatred towards the Jewish people. 

I haven't seen that, nor would I agree with your view. 

There always has and always be doubts over what the news show us, we still have people doubting men have landed on the moon, 9/11 was an inside job and so on. I think it was a stupid post to make in my opinion given the footage out there, however it's some leap to suggest it's akin to holocaust denial. 

If anyone wants to suggest the holocaust didn't take place, close your account now.

The second, was accusing Israel of turning into Nazi's, now the use of the word Israel would be those in power making the decisions, not hatred towards the innocent Jewish people that are living their lives peacefully. 

For what it's worth, I don't agree with the use of the word Nazi either, not in relation to Israel, Russia or Ukraine. 

I disagree with your view on party politics in relation top this thread. 

[Tamworthram]

24 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

We have had one poster say there was no evidence of the Hamas attacks. We have had one poster liken Israel to the Nazis . Both are anti semitic posts in my view. The first akin to Holocaust denial the latter well tone deaf would be putting it mildly. 

As for Uk party politics I am afraid to say that that does seem to influence people’s view of Israel. People live in echo chambers and what they choose to believe is influenced by their party politics, sadly. 

I gave that poster (I shan't mention their name) the benefit of the doubt and assumed they'd been living under a rock for the last week or so.

[Stive Pesley]

48 minutes ago, David said:

Antisemitism is hostility/hatred towards the Jewish people. 

The second, was accusing Israel of turning into Nazi's, now the use of the word Israel would be those in power making the decisions, not hatred towards the innocent Jewish people that are living their lives peacefully. 

For me - your comments are eminently sensible, BUT the IHRA working definition of antisemitism includes

https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definitions-charters/working-definition-antisemitism

So by that yardstick we have technically had an anti-semitic post on the forum.

But that's just an illustration of how difficult the issue is to navigate. If the Israeli government do end up being proven to have committed genocidal war crimes against innocent civilians in retaliation for the Hamas butchery - criticising them for that becomes akin to anti-semitism. A deeply weird position to find ourselves in

[Day]

9 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

For me - your comments are eminently sensible, BUT the IHRA working definition of antisemitism includes

https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definitions-charters/working-definition-antisemitism

So by that yardstick we have technically had an anti-semitic post on the forum.

But that's just an illustration of how difficult the issue is to navigate. If the Israeli government do end up being proven to have committed genocidal war crimes against innocent civilians in retaliation for the Hamas butchery - criticising them for that becomes akin to anti-semitism. A deeply weird position to find ourselves in

I've seen that and the comments have been since removed in agreement with the moderator.

I truly believe nothing more than a lazy comparison over current events than anything intended to be antisemitic towards the Jewish people.

I do thank members for bringing it to my attention, we don't always get things right and I can only go by my own definitions which I'm happy to be corrected on.

[GboroRam]

8 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

For me - your comments are eminently sensible, BUT the IHRA working definition of antisemitism includes

https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definitions-charters/working-definition-antisemitism

So by that yardstick we have technically had an anti-semitic post on the forum.

But that's just an illustration of how difficult the issue is to navigate. If the Israeli government do end up being proven to have committed genocidal war crimes against innocent civilians in retaliation for the Hamas butchery - criticising them for that becomes akin to anti-semitism. A deeply weird position to find ourselves in

No need to hide who posted it, it was me. And I will apologise, I certainly didn't know I'd posted anything antisemitic. 

I find it hard not to make a comparison with the persecution of the Jews in the 30s, and the attacks on Palestinians now. Perversely, the people who were receiving the persecution now have a state apparatus doing the persecution of Palestinians, in the name of driving out Hamas. I mean, would we have said any different if the UK state had blown up whole catholic areas of Northern Ireland, with the intention of driving out the IRA? 

Of course the actions of the Israeli state aren't the actions of all Jews and I don't think anyone is suggesting they are, but can anyone deny there's horrible echoes here, with over a million people fleeing for their lives? It feels very wrong. 

There's a lot of support in the west for Israel and it's hard to say much negative without being cast as antisemitic. I don't believe I am, but perhaps I don't quite agree with the current definition of antisemitism. Offending posts have been removed and I'll try to be mindful of the guidelines as to the definition of antisemitism. Apologies if anyone took offence. 

[PistoldPete]

1 hour ago, Stive Pesley said:

For me - your comments are eminently sensible, BUT the IHRA working definition of antisemitism includes

https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definitions-charters/working-definition-antisemitism

So by that yardstick we have technically had an anti-semitic post on the forum.

But that's just an illustration of how difficult the issue is to navigate. If the Israeli government do end up being proven to have committed genocidal war crimes against innocent civilians in retaliation for the Hamas butchery - criticising them for that becomes akin to anti-semitism. A deeply weird position to find ourselves in

If you read the full IHRA definition with examples, you will see that criticism of Israel (government) can be justified, and if they were guilty of war crimes it certainly would be. But it has to be proportionate and no more than you would other countries who do similar. Did everyone who criticises Israel criticise Iraq when Saddam Hussein was systematically murdering a million  people in his own country? I don't remember George Galloway (for example) doing that.