HS2 northern leg to Manchester cancelled

[BucksRam]

21 hours ago, Gaspode said:

I caught a report last night which looked into the reasons for the vast overspend. There were various reasons such as inflation, need to build additional tunnels under the Chilterns, etc, but by far the most damning reason was relating to the original planning - they came up with the costs by using paper maps to plan the route - at no point did they send people out to actually survey where the track was supposed to go before the plan was put before parliament and the costs signed off - consequently, as the diggers moved in they realised that large parts needed additional works (at huge cost) to make the ground suitable to support the track. They also apparently didn't include any contignecy in the budget (which even a trainee Project Manager knows is needed - even for a simple project).

Gross incompetence (almost criminal negligence) from those tasked with planning/costing the project and also from those people giving it the green light.

 

20 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

I'm not sure this is even a real North vs South/London battle really.

The area north of Euston has been turned into a wasteland to get the station ready for HS2.

But this will probably never happen as HS2 will end/begin at some random West London station with poor links to most of London.

If you drive through the towns and countryside of the likes of Buckinghamshire, there is just continual building sites, mess and disruption. We so wanted to knock 20 minutes off the journey time between London and Bham, that the landscape had to be obilerated to get the tracks straight for high speed trains.

The high level strategy of a fast link from Scotland to London sounds appealing. The planning from then on has been tragic.

So many other rail networks could have been improved instead.

Not just about the tunnels themselves @Gaspode(I live in the Chilterns) but the type - despite various bodies presenting solid, professionally obtained evidence that there were better, and cheaper ways to build these tunnels, HS2 has constantly ignored the suggestions sticking to their original plans. 

Spot on @ariotofmyown - the journey into the office along the A413 to Great Missenden / Amersham (once every week or two now since COVID) is soul destroying. Utterly devastated the landscape to, save a so-called 15/20 minutes off a journey that no-one actually wants (or will use).  Utter madness. Acres and acres of ancient woodland, historic pathways, rolling hills, trees that have stood for hundreds of years, all wiped out forever - multiply that along the whole route from London to Birmingham and the damage to this country is almost too much to comprehend. I certainly don't call this progress.  

[Malagaram]

Any one who likes investing in the Stock Market could do worse than looking at Civil Engineering Companies,as Sunak has stated that the money that was to be invested in HS2 will now be channeled into improving Britains major road networks,think the amount of spend was quoted as 39 billion.

I like a company called Galliford Try who have metamorphed from a builder to a civil engineer,they currently trade around 2.40 pence,but will be paying into my share account 2 dividends  for 19.5 p,thats a 12% div,now and in november.Good luck

[sage]

1 minute ago, Malagaram said:

Any one who likes investing in the Stock Market could do worse than looking at Civil Engineering Companies,as Sunak has stated that the money that was to be invested in HS2 will now be channeled into improving Britains major road networks,think the amount of spend was quoted as 39 billion.

I like a company called Galliford Try who have metamorphed from a builder to a civil engineer,they currently trade around 2.40 pence,but will be paying into my share account 2 dividends  for 19.5 p,thats a 12% div,now and in november.Good luck

I amused that you think this 39 billion of infrastructure spending will actually happen. There are no plans, it was a hastily cobbled together list because a rival leaked the HS2 decision. 

[Grumpy Git]

39 minutes ago, sage said:

I amused that you think this 39 billion of infrastructure spending will actually happen. There are no plans, it was a hastily cobbled together list because a rival leaked the HS2 decision. 

They've already canned a railway line re-opening in south Tyneside (in less than 24 hrs).

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/fury-government-u-turns-fairytale-27848664

[ariotofmyown]

4 hours ago, BucksRam said:

 

Not just about the tunnels themselves @Gaspode(I live in the Chilterns) but the type - despite various bodies presenting solid, professionally obtained evidence that there were better, and cheaper ways to build these tunnels, HS2 has constantly ignored the suggestions sticking to their original plans. 

Spot on @ariotofmyown - the journey into the office along the A413 to Great Missenden / Amersham (once every week or two now since COVID) is soul destroying. Utterly devastated the landscape to, save a so-called 15/20 minutes off a journey that no-one actually wants (or will use).  Utter madness. Acres and acres of ancient woodland, historic pathways, rolling hills, trees that have stood for hundreds of years, all wiped out forever - multiply that along the whole route from London to Birmingham and the damage to this country is almost too much to comprehend. I certainly don't call this progress.  

I think that A413 is maybe the worst part. Just buliding work and mess everywhere.

Have you also driven from Maple Cross to Denham recently? It's like a sci-fi movie with that gigantic bridge.

The countryside between West London and Bham has been ripped apart, just so a 3rd line to Bham can knock 20 mins off the journey. And if HS2 doesn't go to Euston, you'll often be quicker aking the existing line anyway.

[Stive Pesley]

If anyone is interested - these are the mentions of Derby in the "Network North" prospectus

Quote

Fully funding the Midlands Rail Hub - increasing investment to £1.75 billion43, connecting more than 50 stations from Cheltenham to Derby

Not really sure what this means. I can't count more than 20 stations between Cheltenham and Derby currently so it will be impressive if they somehow open 30 more...

 

Quote

We are also providing funding for improvements to the A50/500 corridor between Stoke and Derby, reducing congestion for the 90,000 drivers who use the road each day and ensuring smoother journeys for drivers and freight around Magna Park, Rolls Royce, Toyota and other major local employers.

Again - not sure what improvements they mean - feels like there has already been a ton of work on the routes they mention (and isn't Magna Park near Coventry?). 

Quote

We will guarantee £1.5 billion funding for the new East Midlands City Region, empowering a newly elected Metro Mayor to create London-style public transport networks in Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire, improving lives and livelihoods among the 2.2 million people in the region. Subject to the Mayor’s views, this could include the potential to extend the Nottingham Tram system to serve Gedling and Clifton South; to connect Derby with East Midlands Parkway with a Bus Rapid Transit System; and to reopen the Maid Marion Line to passenger rail services

Some big numbers there, but not seeing any of that actually happening. A rapid bus to East Mids Parkway when you can already get there quicker by train - and then it's another bus to the airport anyway - versus massive investment in extended Nottingham's trams and train lines? That just feels like a recipe for prolonged arguments leading to inaction 

Quote

We will reopen the Ivanhoe Line between Leicester and Burton, connecting nearly 2 million people across South Derbyshire and North West Leicestershire

I thought was in plan anyway

 

Edited October 5, 2023 by Stive Pesley

[TimRam]

Who would use hs2? A few business blokes who can afford the ticket price to get somewhere 1/2 hour quicker? Freight's been mentioned but seems a bit of a bottleneck for that (one or two rail north, one or two south) unless I am missing something?

Of all the information out there, I cannot find anything that shows the expected passenger count. 1000 a week? A million? 10?

 

[Grumpy Git]

2 hours ago, TimRam said:

Who would use hs2? A few business blokes who can afford the ticket price to get somewhere 1/2 hour quicker? Freight's been mentioned but seems a bit of a bottleneck for that (one or two rail north, one or two south) unless I am missing something?

Of all the information out there, I cannot find anything that shows the expected passenger count. 1000 a week? A million? 10?

 

HS2 is (was) to divert ALL express (long distance) passenger services off of the existing west Coast Main Line, (as its full to capacity) and allow local and freight services to use it.

[nottingram]

3 hours ago, Stive Pesley said:

If anyone is interested - these are the mentions of Derby in the "Network North" prospectus

Not really sure what this means. I can't count more than 20 stations between Cheltenham and Derby currently so it will be impressive if they somehow open 30 more...

 

Again - not sure what improvements they mean - feels like there has already been a ton of work on the routes they mention (and isn't Magna Park near Coventry?). 

Some big numbers there, but not seeing any of that actually happening. A rapid bus to East Mids Parkway when you can already get there quicker by train - and then it's another bus to the airport anyway - versus massive investment in extended Nottingham's trams and train lines? That just feels like a recipe for prolonged arguments leading to inaction 

I thought was in plan anyway

 

They’ve been so efficient with the plan for Nottingham that you’ve already been able to get to Clifton South via tram for the last decade

[BucksRam]

3 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

I think that A413 is maybe the worst part. Just buliding work and mess everywhere.

Have you also driven from Maple Cross to Denham recently? It's like a sci-fi movie with that gigantic bridge.

The countryside between West London and Bham has been ripped apart, just so a 3rd line to Bham can knock 20 mins off the journey. And if HS2 doesn't go to Euston, you'll often be quicker aking the existing line anyway.

Ha, yeah I have and know exactly what you mean.  Honestly despair at the whole thing. As someone who's worked in projects for 20 years I struggle to see the business case. Struggled when it was first announced and still struggle. Absolutely smacks of back-handers, bungs and dodgy deals. 

[PistoldPete]

15 hours ago, Stive Pesley said:

If anyone is interested - these are the mentions of Derby in the "Network North" prospectus

Not really sure what this means. I can't count more than 20 stations between Cheltenham and Derby currently so it will be impressive if they somehow open 30 more...

 

Again - not sure what improvements they mean - feels like there has already been a ton of work on the routes they mention (and isn't Magna Park near Coventry?). 

Some big numbers there, but not seeing any of that actually happening. A rapid bus to East Mids Parkway when you can already get there quicker by train - and then it's another bus to the airport anyway - versus massive investment in extended Nottingham's trams and train lines? That just feels like a recipe for prolonged arguments leading to inaction 

I thought was in plan anyway

 

The Ivanhoe Line is planned to go as far as Coalville, hopefully it will be extended now to Leicester. Why don't they extend it the other way, from Burton to the new HS2/ West Coast interchange at Lichfield? Just a thought. 

[BaaLocks]

18 hours ago, Grumpy Git said:

They've already canned a railway line re-opening in south Tyneside (in less than 24 hrs).

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/fury-government-u-turns-fairytale-27848664

And the one in Bristol, and the promised Metrolink to Manchester Airport has infact been running since 2014. Oh, and Sunak told Susannah Reid on Tuesday that he hadn't made a decision, even though he had already filmed the announcement video.

There has to be a way to stop this - it's just shambolic and, as a result, only 37.1% turnout for the bi-election yesterday. British people seem totally disillusioned. My suggestion would be that parties - government and credible opposition - cannot propose spending and commitment of funds without their being a third party, totally independent, review body considering them. In theory this should be the House Of Lords but that is now full of nominations from either party. But nobody should be able to unilaterally cancel a major element of a £100bn investment and then start sloshing it around like confetti with not even the most basic understanding of how it would be spent.

This should be bigger than government, opposition and politics. Shame on us that we've let it become just that.

[ramsbottom]

On 04/10/2023 at 15:13, PistoldPete said:

Never mind we will have the Midlands Hub instead. Which won’t help Derby, Nottingham, Leicester, Peterborough, Northampton or anywhere in the East Midlands at all. So not much of a hub or the Midlands is it? 

Not to mention the 200ft viaduct they'll be building over Long Eaton.  I can't wait to open my curtains in the mornings to stare at that.  Not to mention the chaos they'll cause for years with just building the funking thing.  

Let's face it, it was a vanity project to begin with, just more typical Tory/Little Englander bluster, and bait to grab Red Wall votes.  Just think the amount of other things the money could've been spent on...

[ramsbottom]

32 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

And the one in Bristol, and the promised Metrolink to Manchester Airport has infact been running since 2014. Oh, and Sunak told Susannah Reid on Tuesday that he hadn't made a decision, even though he had already filmed the announcement video.

There has to be a way to stop this - it's just shambolic and, as a result, only 37.1% turnout for the bi-election yesterday. British people seem totally disillusioned. My suggestion would be that parties - government and credible opposition - cannot propose spending and commitment of funds without their being a third party, totally independent, review body considering them. In theory this should be the House Of Lords but that is now full of nominations from either party. But nobody should be able to unilaterally cancel a major element of a £100bn investment and then start sloshing it around like confetti with not even the most basic understanding of how it would be spent.

This should be bigger than government, opposition and politics. Shame on us that we've let it become just that.

Ah, but the problem is that if we as a populous decide to pipe up and do something about it, like i dunno protest, we'll now be locked up for doing so.  

[angieram]

21 hours ago, BucksRam said:

 

Not just about the tunnels themselves @Gaspode(I live in the Chilterns) but the type - despite various bodies presenting solid, professionally obtained evidence that there were better, and cheaper ways to build these tunnels, HS2 has constantly ignored the suggestions sticking to their original plans. 

Spot on @ariotofmyown - the journey into the office along the A413 to Great Missenden / Amersham (once every week or two now since COVID) is soul destroying. Utterly devastated the landscape to, save a so-called 15/20 minutes off a journey that no-one actually wants (or will use).  Utter madness. Acres and acres of ancient woodland, historic pathways, rolling hills, trees that have stood for hundreds of years, all wiped out forever - multiply that along the whole route from London to Birmingham and the damage to this country is almost too much to comprehend. I certainly don't call this progress.  

There's been a lot more headlines about one tree on Hadrian's Wall than ALL that desecration. 

Not saying the former is wrong, just that the latter, as corporate 'crime', doesn't even register.

[BucksRam]

29 minutes ago, angieram said:

There's been a lot more headlines about one tree on Hadrian's Wall than ALL that desecration. 

Not saying the former is wrong, just that the latter, as corporate 'crime', doesn't even register.

You're so right.  It was really sad that the sycamore was cut down, but even near me, we've lost old oak woodland that was 100s of years old all in the name of so-called progress.  Makes me seethe. 

[Tamworthram]

1 hour ago, ramsbottom said:

Not to mention the 200ft viaduct they'll be building over Long Eaton.  I can't wait to open my curtains in the mornings to stare at that.  Not to mention the chaos they'll cause for years with just building the funking thing.  

Let's face it, it was a vanity project to begin with, just more typical Tory/Little Englander bluster, and bait to grab Red Wall votes.  Just think the amount of other things the money could've been spent on...

Not really wanting to go down the politics road but wasn't HS2 Labour's idea and announced by their Labour Secretary of State for Transport in 2010?

[Gaspode]

10 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

Not really wanting to go down the politics road but wasn't HS2 Labour's idea and announced by their Labour Secretary of State for Transport in 2010?

There were also suggestions that it had all been originally prompted by the EU's TEN-T programme which aims to have High Speed Rail in all member countries - though Brexit has obviously blurred/removed that requirement.....

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

This is nothing to do with other options being more viable.

It's all about this and it's why I expect they'll shortly be advising they want me to work till 70.

Current estimates of the total cost of government Covid-19 measures range from about £310 billion to £410 billion. This is the equivalent of about £4,600 to £6,100 per person in the UK. Official figures show that spending in 2020/21 was about £179 billion higher than had been planned before the pandemic for that year.

[Ram-Alf]

33 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

This is nothing to do with other options being more viable.

It's all about this and it's why I expect they'll shortly be advising they want me to work till 70.

Current estimates of the total cost of government Covid-19 measures range from about £310 billion to £410 billion. This is the equivalent of about £4,600 to £6,100 per person in the UK. Official figures show that spending in 2020/21 was about £179 billion higher than had been planned before the pandemic for that year.

🙄😡

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/nov/23/revealed-tory-peer-michelle-mone-secretly-received-29m-from-vip-lane-ppe-firm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54974373

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/feb/01/department-of-health-writes-off-9bn-spent-in-uk-covid-ppe-drive

"and there's more" 🙄

And yet folk will still go out and vote for these people who are entrusted to run our Country...it's a piss take.