Not a top 3 team.

[Anag Ram]

7 hours ago, Ambitious said:

I'm not a big fan of the comment for a few reasons: 

1) He has signed eight experienced players: Vickers hasn't beaten out the Wildsmith, Elder hasn't beaten out Forsyth, Nelson and Bradley have both shown deficiencies with the latter losing his place to a youngster who was already here at the club in Rooney, Washington and Waghorn finally got their chance but were placed behind Collins originally. Ward and Wilson have got injured early on. 

He has all summer been adamant on how important the recruitment strategy is and how he's got to be their best mate before they get a chance to play for the club. He's now essentially saying the players he (and Thomas) have picked for the club aren't good enough. 

2) Not a top 3 team, ok... but it's a top 3 budget we're playing with and a significant commercial advantage that dwarfs 95% of the teams in the league. Bolton are the only side even close to being within the ball park. He is essentially outing himself, Thomas... whoever that they're not being efficient with the money they've had to spend. 

Ultimately, you have to get the most out of what you are given. We've spent our money on a bunch of experience senior pros, with little resale value, essentially banking on promotion this season. Now we look way short of that standard, it's easy to highlight the short-comings. The plan can't be to recycle through free agency every summer, well it can, but ultimately it's such a poor way to build and develop a football team. I think for Warne, in particular, his philosophy and recruitment couldn't be further apart. 

I said he strikes me as someone who knows exactly what he wants, but not really sure how to get there - perhaps a few too many compromises with the recruitment staff (I'm not sure). Three at the back, with the way he plays it, needs athletes and we don't have any. Every team we have come up against has had no problem separating our centre halves and creating huge gaps around and within the box - it's fundamental that those three either have good athleticism or are disciplined and organised to the point where those gaps aren't there anymore. Same in midfield. We just don't have the personnel and we haven't even tried to bring it in. 

I'd say with the players we have we really need a back four to reduce gaps between the players and the requirement for athleticism: Rooney, Nelson, Bradley, Cashin, Elder, Forsyth can all play in this fashion. The midfield just don't really have the legs, so really you need to reduce the space between them. I feel something like a 4-5-1, 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1 formation is our best chance of getting something out of these players in this team. 

Based on what we have, on what I've seen so far this season the next game I would go with: Wildsmith; Rooney, Nelson, Cashin, Forsyth; Thompson, Hourihane; NML, Sibley, Washington; Waghorn. 

A flat back four, nothing stupid and nothing cheap - no easy outballs down the wing for the opposition. Thompson and Hourihane. Not too comfortable about that, but Thompson offers energy and drive. Hourihane can provide an end product. The front four have a little bit of pace, a little bit of purpose. a little bit of drive. Waghorn is technically our best striker at holding the ball up and bringing others into play - he has to start at the pivot. The important thing is just to reduce that space between our defenders - everyone will be a little more comfortable. I'd also like to see us play a lot closer together - we have technically good players in midfield at this level - why do we insist on stretching them so far apart, making their life difficult and (again) creating these huge gaps for teams to hurt us on the counter. 

It's been my biggest frustration with Warne's system - it's a little chaotic, it's a little bit spread out which leads to small errors becoming a critical ones. 

I watched the friendlies, excited to see the new CB pairing that was hyped to be the difference this season.

I was alarmed to see just how slow they were to react to danger. A simple drag back across the box seemed to fox them completely. Their lack of pace (esp Bradley) should have been obvious to any scout.

Watching the league games didn’t change my opinion, though Nelson has settled a bit.

Ward shows glimpses but Elder is bang average. Wilson is a bit like the other wide players we have in that he gets you off your seat with a swivel then back on your seat with a misplaced pass.

 I know we can’t afford much but we were told we were getting special players who had the right character.

Last season’s team was stronger and unless we get two or three real game changers I think this season we’ll be mid table.

Better than no team for sure and I don’t lose sight of that but disappointing against the expectation built by the management team.

 

[Guest]

Having just binge-read this thread, it seems to have run onto the tracks of several others along the lines of "So why aren't we as good as we should be?" which is of course valid (again) but for me I am more interested here in:

1) Why does PW keep saying things like this? (i.e. Why does he think it is perfectly reasonable to say it when it appears obviously unhelpful to many of us at least?); and

2) More bizarrely, what is the significance of "Top 3" as opposed to "Top 2" (automatic promotion) or "Top 6" (play-offs)? Last time I checked, 3rd doesn't get you promoted. Does he mean he can see exactly three teams who are better than Derby can currently be?

[angieram]

2 minutes ago, Anag Ram said:

I watched the friendlies, excited to see the new CB pairing that was hyped to be the difference this season.

I was alarmed to see just how slow they were to react to danger. A simple drag back across the box seemed to fox them completely. Their lack of pace (esp Bradley) should have been obvious to any scout.

Watching the league games didn’t change my opinion, though Nelson has settled a bit.

Ward shows glimpses but Elder is bang average. Wilson is a bit like the other wide players we have in that he gets you off your seat with a swivel then back on your seat with a misplaced pass.

 I know we can’t afford much but we were told we were getting special players who had the right character.

Last season’s team was stronger and unless we get two or three real game changers I think this season we’ll be mid table.

Better than no team for sure and I don’t lose sight of that but disappointing against the expectation built by the management team.

 

I'm not judging Elder or Wilson yet, because I don't think either are anywhere near match-fit.

I've seen how well Wilson played at FGR so hopefully he can get back to being that player. He'll never be strong defensively,  though. Ward is a bit more balanced between the two and probably shown the best of the summer defensive signings so far.

Bradley is a mystery because he appears hesitant and uncertain at even going for balls that are rightly his to command. That's more worrying than the lack of pace for me at the moment. 

I thought Nelson played well at the side of Cashin on Saturday, apart from one header he stretched for and played on.  But there was a good understanding between the two of them about who should go for what. That hasn't been evident when Bradley was playing between them. 

 

[Caerphilly Ram]

15 hours ago, Chris_Martin said:

given that we have signed and are linked with so many of his former rotherham players, i would say warne is quite heavily involved

This ☝️…..is a poor take.
Of the 8 permanent additions we’ve made so far this summer, 2 are former Rotherham players. 25% of the signings made, meaning 75% were not former Rotherham players.

We’ve been linked with a couple of former Rotherham players in the press, and plenty who aren’t.

If people are articulating arguments against Warne’s tactics, or his ability to utilise and maximise the capability of players available to him then fair enough. There’s evidence that backs up those points, this narrative that he only signs his “old boys club” isn’t true….so far.

There does seem to be a disconnect between the recruitment Warne has done previously at Rotherham and his recruitment so far at Derby that does have me perplexed. Rotherham picked up some good, young or “peak years” talent (Barlaser, Ogbene, Humphreys, Johansson, Crooks, Ladapo etc) who Warne then turned into a functioning football team that gained success.
I’m interested in what’s prevented him doing that so far this summer at Derby. I know I won’t get an answer from anyone actually informed on the matter but is it by design that we looked to “experience”? is it wages? Is it poor scouting? Is it the business plan? Something doesn’t stack up with what Warne has said about recruiting for this summer (though I don’t dislike the new signings as much as some) and how he has recruited previously. I do think all it takes is 2 or 3 additions to improve the squad quite quickly, provided Warne can then get them playing in a system that wins football matches (back 4 please Paul)

Edited August 22, 2023 by Caerphilly Ram

[SFox1993]

17 hours ago, Nuwtfly said:

Am I the only one that was irked by these comments?

Whose fault is it exactly if we are not a top three team in this league?

Perhaps I’m being arrogant/entitled/both but Derby County should be a top one team in League One and if we’re not the manager is also heavily responsible for this. 

Whose fault is it exactly if we are not a top three team in this league?

Rhymes with Shell Boris

[Ghost of Clough]

30 minutes ago, jameso said:

Having just binge-read this thread, it seems to have run onto the tracks of several others along the lines of "So why aren't we as good as we should be?" which is of course valid (again) but for me I am more interested here in:

1) Why does PW keep saying things like this? (i.e. Why does he think it is perfectly reasonable to say it when it appears obviously unhelpful to many of us at least?); and

2) More bizarrely, what is the significance of "Top 3" as opposed to "Top 2" (automatic promotion) or "Top 6" (play-offs)? Last time I checked, 3rd doesn't get you promoted. Does he mean he can see exactly three teams who are better than Derby can currently be?

It's usually a top 3 who compete for the top 2 spots, unless there's a 1 runaway team. I think what he means is this team (currently) isn't good enough to be competing for automatics compared to previous seasons.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

It's usually a top 3 who compete for the top 2 spots, unless there's a 1 runaway team. I think what he means is this team (currently) isn't good enough to be competing for automatics compared to previous seasons.

It's a fair suggestion but actually if you look at League One over recent seasons it is true only of the most recent 2 (Ipswich-Plymouth-Sheff Wed last year; Wigan-Rotherham-MKDons the previous one) and 2014-15 (BristolC-MKDons-Preston). In all the seasons in between, there's either been a runaway team or, more typically, a top 4/5/6 separated by maybe 7-10 points.

Not that there is anything special about League One as such - just the first league I looked at to test your hypothesis 😉

[metalsheep02]

1 hour ago, jameso said:

Having just binge-read this thread, it seems to have run onto the tracks of several others along the lines of "So why aren't we as good as we should be?" which is of course valid (again) but for me I am more interested here in:

1) Why does PW keep saying things like this? (i.e. Why does he think it is perfectly reasonable to say it when it appears obviously unhelpful to many of us at least?); and

2) More bizarrely, what is the significance of "Top 3" as opposed to "Top 2" (automatic promotion) or "Top 6" (play-offs)? Last time I checked, 3rd doesn't get you promoted. Does he mean he can see exactly three teams who are better than Derby can currently be?

Agree with all of this. On 2), Derby had already been beaten by three other teams so it would be difficult to make a case for us being top 3 atm. I also wonder if his comments were off the back of the injuries, if I remember correctly he explained the injury situation and then linked into not top 3 comment? So perhaps a reality check on where the injuries have left the team, at least in Warne's eyes?

[jimtastic56]

1 hour ago, angieram said:

I'm not judging Elder or Wilson yet, because I don't think either are anywhere near match-fit.

I've seen how well Wilson played at FGR so hopefully he can get back to being that player. He'll never be strong defensively,  though. Ward is a bit more balanced between the two and probably shown the best of the summer defensive signings so far.

Bradley is a mystery because he appears hesitant and uncertain at even going for balls that are rightly his to command. That's more worrying than the lack of pace for me at the moment. 

I thought Nelson played well at the side of Cashin on Saturday, apart from one header he stretched for and played on.  But there was a good understanding between the two of them about who should go for what. That hasn't been evident when Bradley was playing between them. 

 

Before we signed Wilson , I read that he had an injury that he will have to manage for the whole of his career. In that case , how did he pass a medical? NML will now have to go back on his wing , perhaps till Xmas. But we know from last season - he struggles with 2 games a week and he hasn’t had a rest this summer. 

[On the Ram Page]

There seems to be huge criticisms of our recruitment so far but I believe it is no where near as bad as people are making out.

In my view there were certain priorities:

- no real alternative to Wildsmith - he could make as many mistakes as possible and had no competition

- we used to get bullied in defence by big attackers and at set pieces, throw ins, with big defenders joining in. We conceded no end of goals from these. Davies, Stearman and Chester were let go (rightly so in the view of the majority on this Forum).

We lacked aggression, pace and creativity in midfield. Our crossing was poor.

We lacked pace and alternatives in attack, with only Collins and McGoldrick as forerunners. We then had the bombshell that McGoldrick was leaving.

we also wanted to be more threatening in the position box from set plays

New Arrivals:

Vickers- on the little we have seen of him so far he looks a capable addition. Wild smith has made a couple of errors so far and looked a bit shaky on crosses. Many were calling for a change against Fleetwood but Warne stuck with him and he had his best game so far. Would have no problem with Vickers replacing him should there be further errors.

Nelson - has had a few shaky moments but generally has looked pretty solid. Quite a few had him as our best player against Wigan (others not). He is a big strong guy and suffers no nonsense from the opposition. Signs of him organising a bit on Saturday.

Bradley - everyone was delighted when we signed him and listened to his interview. Had a colossal game against Stoke in pre-season but following his mistake mid first half against Wigan has looked tentative. Not started last match but I for one still expect him to play an important role during the season. I remember Mark Wright and Craig Short both struggling badly when they came to the club. Bradley has had a very good career so far.

Elder - pre-season ruined by an injury and not really got started yet. Remember the game against Matlock where his left foot looked very good passing and crossing. Hull fans very disappointed to lose him. He is another, I predict will be a big player for us.

Ward - arguably the played the best of the new signings so far. Not pacy but able to find a yard to whip in dangerous crosses which Collins has thrived on. Annoyingly now injured.

Wilson - again missed a lot of pre-season and we have only seen glimpses of him. Something there to work with. Will either be a gem or disappointment I think. Again annoyingly injured.

Washington - again missed preseason - jury still out but has worked well with Waghorn so far. Probably not as quick as Imhad hoped. Done ok so far

Waghorn - many on the Forum didn’t want him back (some said passed it) but breath of fresh air so far.

 

So with the exception of Bradley no one has shown signs of promise. The injuries have rocked us this last week or so.

we still haven’t found our pace up front nor our midfield destroyer but I am sure this hasn’t been without considerable effort. I don’t want us to waste our money if we can’t improve on what we have.

Patience and Rams fans don’t go arm in arm. But generally our recruitment has been good, although disappointing with injuries to those signed (oh George Thorne). 

 

T

 

[Chris_Martin]

2 hours ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

This ☝️…..is a poor take.
Of the 8 permanent additions we’ve made so far this summer, 2 are former Rotherham players. 25% of the signings made, meaning 75% were not former Rotherham players.

We’ve been linked with a couple of former Rotherham players in the press, and plenty who aren’t.

If people are articulating arguments against Warne’s tactics, or his ability to utilise and maximise the capability of players available to him then fair enough. There’s evidence that backs up those points, this narrative that he only signs his “old boys club” isn’t true….so far.

I never actually said he 'only' signs his old players though. 25% of the signings have been, while we have been linked with 2 or 3 others, clearly means they are looking heavily at them.

[TomTom92]

44 minutes ago, On the Ram Page said:

There seems to be huge criticisms of our recruitment so far but I believe it is no where near as bad as people are making out.

In my view there were certain priorities:

- no real alternative to Wildsmith - he could make as many mistakes as possible and had no competition

- we used to get bullied in defence by big attackers and at set pieces, throw ins, with big defenders joining in. We conceded no end of goals from these. Davies, Stearman and Chester were let go (rightly so in the view of the majority on this Forum).

We lacked aggression, pace and creativity in midfield. Our crossing was poor.

We lacked pace and alternatives in attack, with only Collins and McGoldrick as forerunners. We then had the bombshell that McGoldrick was leaving.

we also wanted to be more threatening in the position box from set plays

New Arrivals:

Vickers- on the little we have seen of him so far he looks a capable addition. Wild smith has made a couple of errors so far and looked a bit shaky on crosses. Many were calling for a change against Fleetwood but Warne stuck with him and he had his best game so far. Would have no problem with Vickers replacing him should there be further errors.

Nelson - has had a few shaky moments but generally has looked pretty solid. Quite a few had him as our best player against Wigan (others not). He is a big strong guy and suffers no nonsense from the opposition. Signs of him organising a bit on Saturday.

Bradley - everyone was delighted when we signed him and listened to his interview. Had a colossal game against Stoke in pre-season but following his mistake mid first half against Wigan has looked tentative. Not started last match but I for one still expect him to play an important role during the season. I remember Mark Wright and Craig Short both struggling badly when they came to the club. Bradley has had a very good career so far.

Elder - pre-season ruined by an injury and not really got started yet. Remember the game against Matlock where his left foot looked very good passing and crossing. Hull fans very disappointed to lose him. He is another, I predict will be a big player for us.

Ward - arguably the played the best of the new signings so far. Not pacy but able to find a yard to whip in dangerous crosses which Collins has thrived on. Annoyingly now injured.

Wilson - again missed a lot of pre-season and we have only seen glimpses of him. Something there to work with. Will either be a gem or disappointment I think. Again annoyingly injured.

Washington - again missed preseason - jury still out but has worked well with Waghorn so far. Probably not as quick as Imhad hoped. Done ok so far

Waghorn - many on the Forum didn’t want him back (some said passed it) but breath of fresh air so far.

 

So with the exception of Bradley no one has shown signs of promise. The injuries have rocked us this last week or so.

we still haven’t found our pace up front nor our midfield destroyer but I am sure this hasn’t been without considerable effort. I don’t want us to waste our money if we can’t improve on what we have.

Patience and Rams fans don’t go arm in arm. But generally our recruitment has been good, although disappointing with injuries to those signed (oh George Thorne). 

 

T

 

Depends where we finish i guess. But seeing as we finished 7th last season and arguable the teams that got promoted are better than what came down, we should be a top 6 this season. 

So far we haven't been at the races, whether thats due to the players or how Warne's using them is up for debate. However, we haven't replaced McGoldrick and we do look very one paced. Big 10 days ahead in the window i'd say. 

[Sheff Ram]

Just 4 games in, I think I'll reserve my judgement 

[Jram]

Warne knows they get older, right? Ward rapidly drifting out of the 23-28 age bracket he wanted 😂

[DCFC1388]

So Warne has said something which I think the majority of fans agree with & still gets criticised? 

They way he said it was fine too, he didnt moan about what the ability of the current squad just that it needs more additions....again every fan agrees with this.

The type of players he has openly stated he wants are pretty much what most fans also say we need. 

Not sure how he is being criticised for seeing what the fans see & wanting what the fans want.

Edited August 22, 2023 by DCFC1388

[Bessie1]

17 hours ago, 8Leeds said:

I wonder how many league one managers would swop our squad for theirs and the resources available? 

Or how many fans of L1 teams would swap their manager for ours.

[Turk Thrust]

I’ve been around football and Derby for a very long time, since the 50s, and know that 4 games in is not enough to decide that we are not good enough for promotion.

[Nuwtfly]

4 hours ago, SFox1993 said:

Whose fault is it exactly if we are not a top three team in this league?

Rhymes with Shell Boris

Ultimately yes but for me, hearing a manager who has been in charge of this team for nearly a year come out and say it’s not a top three team rings alarm bells. Were we a top three team when he took over? 

I want a Derby County manager to turn us into a top three side. Not the opposite. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Nuwtfly said:

Ultimately yes but for me, hearing a manager who has been in charge of this team for nearly a year come out and say it’s not a top three team rings alarm bells. Were we a top three team when he took over? 

I want a Derby County manager to turn us into a top three side. Not the opposite. 

Is this a rhetorical question?

[Guest]

41 minutes ago, DCFC1388 said:

So Warne has said something which I think the majority of fans agree with & still gets criticised? 

They way he said it was fine too, he didnt moan about what the ability of the current squad just that it needs more additions....again every fan agrees with this.

The type of players he has openly stated he wants are pretty much what most fans also say we need. 

Not sure how he is being criticised for seeing what the fans see & wanting what the fans want.

I could be wrong but I think most criticism is not around PW's ability to discern that the squad is not good enough. It's about the fact that it isn't good enough, how much of that is attributable to his recruitment, and whether it supports or undermines the current squad to hear that from their manager.

Whether you or I agree or disagree with that is down to each of us individually.