Problems with VAR starting to show?

[TuffLuff]

Whilst I appreciate this World Cup has already brought up a lot of talking points, I do wonder from a football perspective if afterwards there will be some questions on how VAR is used and the impact it’s starting to have on games.

The biggest question I think I have is it starting to have an impact on football as entertainment? This isn’t just through the jeopardy when a team scores and everyone has to wait to be sure it’s allowed, but is it having a negative impact on a matches entertainment? Good example is last night with the Rudiger disallowed goal, because whether you argue whether it’s offside or not, the point is that game needed a Germany goal at that time. Spain chasing that game would make it a better spectacle, which is what we want to see at the World Cup. It was kinda similar tonight, Uruguay chasing the game with 10 minutes added time and it completely took that away and placed the game in Portugal’s hands.

The other point is, again like tonight, is that there is no way we can know what clear and obvious means in a football context. That handball tonight can be argued to be clear and obvious, but there’s also jeopardy and refs need to be able to make that decision in real time and not be picked up on it. The ref can see everything he needs to with that challenge, there’s no reason to try and one rule him. It’s putting the ref under huge pressure when someone in a box somewhere is telling him to rethink a decision. Which leads me to my final point I’d want to make…

…but VAR has to show it’s ‘worth’. It has to be shown to having an impact on games or else what’s the point in it being used in football? Can we think of a game this tournament where it’s not been used? It’s having too much say in my opinion, but it has to do that to be relevant. So its impossible for it ever to be perfect.

I fully appreciate there’s also a problem with refs, but maybe the issue really was how supporters, pundits, the media looked at their decision making overall rather than a problem with the decisions. As far as I can see we’ve sacrificed entertainment and spectacle with a robotic sense of order and admin.

[Bris Vegas]

VAR has just shown that football is a game of opinions. And that includes officiating too. 

I think having technology to define offsides is great. Because it doesn’t matter if you are 1cm offside or 1m, offsides are black and white.

But fouls aren’t. They are open to interpretation. And it doesn’t matter how many angles you look at it, some will say foul while others will disagree.

So let’s just have the on-field officials make the decision on fouls, while use technology to determine offsides, corner and throw-in decisions.

[sage]

3 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

VAR has just shown that football is a game of opinions. And that includes officiating too. 

I think having technology to define offsides is great. Because it doesn’t matter if you are 1cm offside or 1m, offsides are black and white.

But fouls aren’t. They are open to interpretation. And it doesn’t matter how many angles you look at it, some will say foul while others will disagree.

So let’s just have the on-field officials make the decision on fouls, while use technology to determine offsides, corner and throw-in decisions.

I would also let cameras help make post match decisions such as rescind red card suspensions, deal with off the ball violent conduct and diving.

[Mucker1884]

9 hours ago, TuffLuff said:

... Good example is last night with the Rudiger disallowed goal, because whether you argue whether it’s offside or not, the point is that game needed a Germany goal at that time. Spain chasing that game would make it a better spectacle, which is what we want to see at the World Cup...

Feel free to argue amongst yourselves regarding the rights and wrongs of VAR.  I'm very much on the fence myself, and it all remains a bit "Meh" for my interest levels.

But I have to say, no way VAR should be used... or not used... in the name of entertainment.  No matter how much a game "Cries out for a goal", or any other turning point, this should not be a consideration for the officials and/or their technology.

[Alph]

I'm just glad it slows the matches up. Because one thing I can't stand it's the lack of stoppages during a match. 

Thankfully we now have breaks during goal celebrations. Woot. Woot. 

[Ram-Alf]

No apologies here as I'm old school, A saga supporter, Old timer, A man from the early days of yore the 60s, VAR has killed what I once knew as football, A passionate game between 2 waring teams, A Ref who was pretty decent, The World thought we had the best Refs in the day, Pitches that were pristine in the Summer and a bog in the Winter, But 22 players had to play on them.

I bit the bullet on Sunday and cancelled my Sky Sport, No more being told by both sexes what I'd just seen, Not listening to ex footballers giving their opinions on the game...who gives a sh*t, Not listening to some jumped up commentator talking bo***x, The dearth of the John Motson/Barry Davies commentators replaced with a new bread of whataboutisms, With VAR we have win/lose by tech, Jeff Stelling was banging the drum a few years back with "the tech is out there...use it for pete's sake" now a hairs breath on an attacking player in the box he goes down and it's a penalty, Players today or should I say actors are very astute at winning them, The Ref has relinquished the responsibility...let those miles away decide.

A 90 minute game has now turned into a 100min plus game at the very least, Players are so tuned into VAR they know it's a tool they can use, Players get the slightest touch in their face and it looks like Mike Tyson has hit them...hoping VAR will get involved.

I could go on and on and on and on, Tech has improved our way of lives, The wheel has been invented with more to boot in the future, But football is like no other sport in the World, It's subjective and is filled with a bucket full of opinions...I don't like VAR even if it cost DCFC a trophy in the future. 

Off out now...to Chill ? 

[RoyMac5]

11 hours ago, Bris Vegas said:

VAR has just shown that football is a game of opinions. And that includes officiating too. 

I think having technology to define offsides is great. Because it doesn’t matter if you are 1cm offside or 1m, offsides are black and white.

But fouls aren’t. They are open to interpretation. And it doesn’t matter how many angles you look at it, some will say foul while others will disagree.

So let’s just have the on-field officials make the decision on fouls, while use technology to determine offsides, corner and throw-in decisions.

I hate VAR.

How does the tech decide exactly when the ball has left the players boot, if we are talking centimetres?

Why not use it for proper yes/no? Has the ball crossed the line, is it a corner? Or a throw-in? 

[RoyMac5]

11 hours ago, TuffLuff said:

The biggest question I think I have is it starting to have an impact on football as entertainment? This isn’t just through the jeopardy when a team scores and everyone has to wait to be sure it’s allowed, but is it having a negative impact on a matches entertainment?

Perhaps we should also question what we need off-side for and how it's ruled? 

[TuffLuff]

1 hour ago, Mucker1884 said:

Feel free to argue amongst yourselves regarding the rights and wrongs of VAR.  I'm very much on the fence myself, and it all remains a bit "Meh" for my interest levels.

But I have to say, no way VAR should be used... or not used... in the name of entertainment.  No matter how much a game "Cries out for a goal", or any other turning point, this should not be a consideration for the officials and/or their technology.

Yeah…I’m not saying a decision should be decided on entertainment though. I used two examples where VAR had an effect on the game to say I’m not sure if it’s having a positive effect. It’s the impact VAR is having on football as entertainment rather than entertainment having an impact on VAR

[Animal is a Ram]

As a concept overall, I'm in favour of VAR, but it's execution is seriously poor just now and what's making it worse is that football seems not to be learning anything in the time it's been in.

I know rugby and football are different sports, but the former just does it so much better. Fans in the ground know more of what's happening, as the incident is played out on the screens, rather than just 'VAR CHECK'. For those watching on TV you get the communication between the referees and the TMO. I'd love to have heard the conversation between the ref and VAR for the Portugal penalty - has the referee had the final say, or has VAR recommended it's given?

I also like the concept of this 'semi-automatic' offside system, and the graphic is so much better than the stupid lines, but again, the execution is so poor. It makes those running the line seem so pointless and ineffective. Is it just the speed of the system? I hate this whole don't give the offside until 10 seconds later for decisions that aren't even marginal - an attacker can be a clear yard offside but the lino gives nothing until it's been confirmed. I get the need for letting the play go on in terms of there might be a goal which would stand, but there's also a risk that a player gets injured where there's no need...

[Gaspode]

I've said this before, but I think it's worth repeating...folk (most importantly the people in charge) are missing the 'A' part of VAR - it's supposed to be an assistant - yet it's turned into the god of refereeing decisions.

Unless the ref has quite clearly missed something (he was looking the other way) or has made a very obvious hash of something, then let the ref get on with their job. If they want to refer to VAR, then fair enough, but it should be used at his discretion, not as a matter of course. VAR should behave in the same way an on-field Assistant Referee would, not as something looking over the ref's shoulder and telling him what to do or think.....

[Animal is a Ram]

4 minutes ago, Gaspode said:

I've said this before, but I think it's worth repeating...folk (most importantly the people in charge) are missing the 'A' part of VAR - it's supposed to be an assistant - yet it's turned into the god of refereeing decisions.

Unless the ref has quite clearly missed something (he was looking the other way) or has made a very obvious hash of something, then let the ref get on with their job. If they want to refer to VAR, then fair enough, but it should be used at his discretion, not as a matter of course. VAR should behave in the same way an on-field Assistant Referee would, not as something looking over the ref's shoulder and telling him what to do or think.....

Exactly this. Which is closer to how it works in top level rugby.

[Tamworthram]

1 hour ago, TuffLuff said:

Yeah…I’m not saying a decision should be decided on entertainment though. I used two examples where VAR had an effect on the game to say I’m not sure if it’s having a positive effect. It’s the impact VAR is having on football as entertainment rather than entertainment having an impact on VAR

Sorry, I'm not convinced by your argument. What about examples of where the game has continued but pulled back for a penalty decision spotted by VAR? In that scenario, you could just as strongly argue that VAR can have a positive impact on entertainment if that penalty is scored and it means one of the teams now needs to "chase the game". 

I'm also not sure about your point that it adds pressure on the ref. I would say the opposite. He can make a call knowing that, if someone in the VAR studio thinks he may have got it wrong, he can go and review it and have the opportunity to change his original decision.

I think, in theory, VAR is a good thing but it needs to be more consistently applied and decisions shouldn't take too long. Frustrating things like marginal offsides (e.g. part of a leg or arm) isn't really a VAR probably but an offside rule problem.

[JoetheRam]

I think VAR is what confirmed football is rubbish to me.

Arguing over offsides, penalties and red cards has to be me the most banal conversation that could be had about the game. It's such a surface level, everyman chat that you can even imagine a colleague mentioning it the day after an England defeat, or a friends wife bringing it up at a dinner party. "What did you think about that penalty decision? More wine anyone?".

Has anyone, who has ever kicked a ball themselves, gone to see a game involving Messi or Ronaldo or Mbappe, or Jake Buxton come out of the ground and spoke not of their skill, artistry, heart and technical ability but instead about the referee?  It would be like watching a Porno and commenting on the plumbers shoddy groutwork.

What the ref gives, he gives, what he doesn't, he doesn't. Get on with the game and accept you win some, you lose some and ultimately it doesn't matter. That's the beauty of football. It's really important for 90 minutes and then it stops.

Unfortunately, somewhere along the line football started to take itself seriously. Lost it's fun. Lost it's sense of humour. Inevitable really when there's so much money at stake.

The introduction of VAR and goal line technology is the administrators confirming that every decision matters, because football matters and therefore every effort must be made to ensure a decision (which is open to interpretation) is made "correctly".

Boring.

 

 

[RadioactiveWaste]

If duff decisions were the price of the fluid and spontaneous game we all loved, it was a price worth paying.

 

[Premier ram]

55 minutes ago, JoetheRam said:

I think VAR is what confirmed football is rubbish to me.

Arguing over offsides, penalties and red cards has to be me the most banal conversation that could be had about the game. It's such a surface level, everyman chat that you can even imagine a colleague mentioning it the day after an England defeat, or a friends wife bringing it up at a dinner party. "What did you think about that penalty decision? More wine anyone?".

Has anyone, who has ever kicked a ball themselves, gone to see a game involving Messi or Ronaldo or Mbappe, or Jake Buxton come out of the ground and spoke not of their skill, artistry, heart and technical ability but instead about the referee?  It would be like watching a Porno and commenting on the plumbers shoddy groutwork.

What the ref gives, he gives, what he doesn't, he doesn't. Get on with the game and accept you win some, you lose some and ultimately it doesn't matter. That's the beauty of football. It's really important for 90 minutes and then it stops.

Unfortunately, somewhere along the line football started to take itself seriously. Lost it's fun. Lost it's sense of humour. Inevitable really when there's so much money at stake.

The introduction of VAR and goal line technology is the administrators confirming that every decision matters, because football matters and therefore every effort must be made to ensure a decision (which is open to interpretation) is made "correctly".

Boring.

 

 

Agree with everything mate apart from the order of your quoted players , Sir Jake should be first in that list , hes a football genius,  our Jake would put the other three in there place no messing

[Mucker1884]

1 hour ago, JoetheRam said:

  It would be like watching a Porno and commenting on the plumbers shoddy groutwork.

 

I'm sure that must be a euphemism for summat, but I'm damned if I can work it out!  ?

must be proper pervy!  

#sicko!

  

 

[Alph]

Isn't VAR kind of a product of constant analysis and criticism from fake tan knob heads in studios and "journalists"?

All the crying with 50 replays, a magic pen and lasers for 3 hours after a match surely played a role in referees being under constant scrutiny. So VAR came to protect them? To iron out these faults? 

I think quite a lot of football fans of a certain age are now fair weather fans. They watch their team. They go because it's part of their social circle. They go out of habit. 

But I think a lot of people are fed up of the slap in the face that football gives them. 

The obscene wages, the horrific life changing tackles that happen every 3 seconds, the fake tan men telling you what you just watched, the organisations (and their lack of humour was a great shout) trying to be social media savvy, up to date with the latest politics, all politically correct yet utterly failing on every single level to put words into action. 

Then of course there are the super clubs and super stars. Mbappe has a testicle worth more money than every club in League 1. Man City now have 3 teams better than Derby. And we make sure they can play those teams in a fully competitive match and make 5 subs to keep everyone happy. 

VAR is perfect. I'm not smart enough to think of the words. But it's suited for a game where everything is in a bubble and they can all play up a simple beautiful game to be some kind of science. 

There's a generation that will know no difference though. So rest assured Sir Neymar. You can continue doing 50 rolls after being knocked over by a brush on the the arm. And you can collect hundreds of millions for it. Just remember don't bring the game into disrepute. Because reputation has to be upheld. 

[FlyBritishMidland]

8 hours ago, Unlucky Alf said:

No apologies here as I'm old school, A saga supporter, Old timer, A man from the early days of yore the 60s, VAR has killed what I once knew as football, A passionate game between 2 waring teams, A Ref who was pretty decent, The World thought we had the best Refs in the day, Pitches that were pristine in the Summer and a bog in the Winter, But 22 players had to play on them.

I bit the bullet on Sunday and cancelled my Sky Sport, No more being told by both sexes what I'd just seen, Not listening to ex footballers giving their opinions on the game...who gives a sh*t, Not listening to some jumped up commentator talking bo***x, The dearth of the John Motson/Barry Davies commentators replaced with a new bread of whataboutisms, With VAR we have win/lose by tech, Jeff Stelling was banging the drum a few years back with "the tech is out there...use it for pete's sake" now a hairs breath on an attacking player in the box he goes down and it's a penalty, Players today or should I say actors are very astute at winning them, The Ref has relinquished the responsibility...let those miles away decide.

A 90 minute game has now turned into a 100min plus game at the very least, Players are so tuned into VAR they know it's a tool they can use, Players get the slightest touch in their face and it looks like Mike Tyson has hit them...hoping VAR will get involved.

I could go on and on and on and on, Tech has improved our way of lives, The wheel has been invented with more to boot in the future, But football is like no other sport in the World, It's subjective and is filled with a bucket full of opinions...I don't like VAR even if it cost DCFC a trophy in the future. 

Off out now...to Chill ? 

Absolutely spot on!!  I miss commentators like Motty and Barry Davies.  Now you have 2, sometimes even 3, telling you what’s happening.

With all the cameras at the games and the over analysis by pundits it meant VAR was inevitable.  Officials decisions were being scrutinised to death.  I like Chris Kamara but Goals on Sunday on Sky was the worst.  You’d get them pointing out that the strikers big toe was offside.  Now, all the pundits complain that the goal was disallowed because the strikers big toe was offside.  You reap what you sow.

I’m not even sure the ref looking at an incident by the side of the pitch is a good thing.  If someone has looked at for about 3 mins from 627 different angles and then is still unsure, that the ref then has to watch it another dozen times on a screen with hundreds of fans screaming in his face, how can it be clear and obvious??

Good job England are playing tonight to reduce my blood pressure!!

Edited November 29, 2022 by FlyBritishMidland

[Gritstone Ram]

Was it used tonight? It wasn’t that close a game. May be in closer games it’s the difference between winning and losing.