No repeat offenders.

[RoyMac5]

 

[TuffLuff]

It’s an interesting one but I think we are just being a bit naive. Penalties/set pieces are hugely important in the lower leagues or maybe it’s even more simplistic that it’s about ‘bombarding the opposition box and seeing what you can get’. The Championship I think you can get away with odd shirt pulls, or a dangled leg because there is more time on open play with time on the ball.

Lower leagues the game is much more stop-start stop and because the refs are looking for fouls, the players make a meal out of any slight touch so the ref sees it. I think we still defend like a Championship side and we get caught out because of it.

[May Contain Nuts]

I'm not sure if he means that in defence of Warne?

One part constantly failing would point to that part being faulty and in need of replacing.

Multiple parts failing at random would suggest that the problem is systemic.

Why are referees getting so many opportunities to award penalties in games involving us?

The quality of referees is very poor, but if that was the main factor we'd see 15-20 penalties every round of matches, it wouldn't just be affecting us.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Kokosnuss

[Ram-Alf]

All down to the officials...imo, We've had some poor ones and maybe a couple of good ones so far, These officials seem to be making their way up the Ref ladder, I noticed that Bobby Madley was refereeing in the Prem the other week, Moved abroad concerning a misdemeanour text...I believe, Comes back for a season or 2 then in the top league.

Experience will/can determine what they see or believe to have seen, The incident with Forsyth/Ref yesterday summed it all up, Seeing one thing and missing the other, Being cajoled by other managers to favour their teams all for a reason of getting a good mark on their card to boost their chances of promotion.

I'm sure other teams have had as much indifference from their officials as we have, It just seems that we're the brunt of some awful refs for being a big fish in a small pond.

Just an opinion and nothing more ☹️ 

 

 

[europia]

We don't just concede penalties, we miss them when given our way. Just have to accept the level of players we have in the squad. Paul Warne has his work cut out. Best of luck to him. 

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

The problem almost entirely coincides with Warne taking over. It can't just be that we have 11 braindead players in our team or that the ref is always wrong, it wasn't an issue under Rosenior. I can only really conclude that the way we currently set ourselves up and play the game invites more pressure on our box, or the shape of the defence invites opposition players to run in to certain areas, and those are the areas in which we are giving away penalties.

The players have to shoulder some responsibility and make better decisions, but that also extends to the manager and the way we set up in my opinion.

Edited November 8, 2022 by JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta

[RadioactiveWaste]

I think being good at being a Paul Warne side is going to involve a good understanding of the dark arts, grey areas, what you can and can't get away with and equally understanding what the other side are doing in that regard.

It's a hangover of being just to nice, that wasn't an issue when we were genuinely being nice.

[Ramarena]

2 hours ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said:

The problem almost entirely coincides with Warne taking over. It can't just be that we have 11 braindead players in our team or that the ref is always wrong, it wasn't an issue under Rosenior. I can only really conclude that the way we currently set ourselves up and play the game invites more pressure on our box, or the shape of the defence invites opposition players to run in to certain areas, and those are the areas in which we are giving away penalties.

The players have to shoulder some responsibility and make better decisions, but that also extends to the manager and the way we set up in my opinion.

Yep you can’t deny its coincided with his arrival.

That said some of the penos we’ve given away have been utterly idiotic, think the Hourihane/Stearman handball, McGoldricks goal line foul, etc.

My brother was saying the other day “it feels like we’ve swapped poncing round at the back and giving crazy goals away to giving penos away.

I laughed, but maybe there’s a point in there somewhere.

[ImARam2]

Have you forgotten the penalty we gave away at Lincoln City, where Knight "touched" their forward and he fell as if he had been pole-axed!!

That makes 8 penalties in the league this season.

[May Contain Nuts]

7 hours ago, Ramarena said:

Yep you can’t deny its coincided with his arrival.

That said some of the penos we’ve given away have been utterly idiotic, think the Hourihane/Stearman handball, McGoldricks goal line foul, etc.

My brother was saying the other day “it feels like we’ve swapped poncing round at the back and giving crazy goals away to giving penos away.

I laughed, but maybe there’s a point in there somewhere.

The number of 'crazy goals we've given away poncing around the back' over a whole season (and more) has already been eclipsed by the number of penalties given away and times our defence have been left one on one with an attacker on the breakaway 

It's really odd that one is almost excused and the other vilified.

Edited November 8, 2022 by Kokosnuss

[IncredibleKoosh]

Yes, I'm sure that one of the main things that Warne has asked the team to do is give away daft penalties.

[Van der MoodHoover]

It's in keeping with the chant.... 

"get into em.... 

......touch em lightly. 

Get into em......

......brush their thighs.." 

?

[kevinhectoring]

2 hours ago, IncredibleKoosh said:

Yes, I'm sure that one of the main things that Warne has asked the team to do is give away daft penalties.

Point taken.  But if you tell players: ‘ I need to see intensity from you if you’re going to start for this team ‘ ... then some of them will do crazy things     Oh, and forget how to pass the ball 

[ariotofmyown]

How many of these pens have been rubbish decisions? 

[May Contain Nuts]

29 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

How many of these pens have been rubbish decisions? 

Most of them.

How many other teams have been on the end of 7,8,9 such decisions by the same group of refs in the space of 10-12 games?

If your answer is 'none, but the refs are targeting Derby ' the you're  barking up the wrong tree.

I fully expect the issue to resolve itself in one or a  few month's time, at which point people will just say 'see, it wasn't our fault!" and pretend that there haven't been any changes at all.

 

Edited November 9, 2022 by Kokosnuss

[cannable]

Another thing is, it’s the first time we’ve played without at least one designated holding midfielder in nine years (apart from maybe Rooney’s first season).

The midfield two are expected to act as high-intensity pistons. There’s nobody screening the defence.

Teams keep getting a run at them.

[ram59]

14 hours ago, Kokosnuss said:

The number of 'crazy goals we've given away poncing around the back' over a whole season (and more) has already been eclipsed by the number of penalties given away and times our defence have been left one on one with an attacker on the breakaway 

It's really odd that one is almost excused and the other vilified.

But it wasn't just the number of crazy goals conceded, how many more times did we give away the ball whilst poncing around at the back, only to get out of jail because the opposition failed to capitalise on it? On average, we must have give the ball away 3 or 4 times every match by poncing around.

Although this is critical of LR's style of play, he is not alone in his way of thinking, you can watch live football at all levels and see how widespread this crazy tactic is. Watching skyports news last night there were several goals conceded by teams poncing around including those managed by LR and Lampard.

Modern football is highly statistics driven, surely the number of goals created is outnumbered by the number of goals conceded by poncing around at the back, so I don't know why this tactic is so common. The game is around 150 years old, but this tactic has only been around very recently, is it down to somebody trying to think of some think new to teach coaches on the UEFA coaching courses?

[duncanjwitham]

49 minutes ago, cannable said:

Another thing is, it’s the first time we’ve played without at least one designated holding midfielder in nine years (apart from maybe Rooney’s first season).

The midfield two are expected to act as high-intensity pistons. There’s nobody screening the defence.

Teams keep getting a run at them.

That's a big part of it IMO, along with forcing the ball forwards too often meaning we struggle to keep it.

The pen against Torquay all comes because the midfield 2 getting dragged out of position, chasing the ball.  Hourihane is off chasing their left back down, and when he breaks past him Bird gets dragged over to close him down, leaving a spare man in the middle of the pitch. When the ball is passed to him, he has all the time to do whatever he wants, and he picks out a pass to the guy Cashin fouls.  

Obviously that doesn't completely excuse Cashin fouling the guy, and it doesn't explain the moment-of-madness handballs etc, but at least half of the penalties are ultimately due to us allowing opposing players to dribble at us, in our box.  If you keep forcing the ball forwards you'll give it away more.  And if you have your midfield chasing all over the place, there will be times when they get bypassed, and that results in players getting free run to dribble/pass into our box.  And if that happens often enough, you'll give penalties away.  And while some of the refereeing decisions are clearly bad, if you keep having to make last ditch tackles on guys in your box, you're making the ref make decisions.

[May Contain Nuts]

24 minutes ago, ram59 said:

But it wasn't just the number of crazy goals conceded, how many more times did we give away the ball whilst poncing around at the back, only to get out of jail because the opposition failed to capitalise on it? On average, we must have give the ball away 3 or 4 times every match by poncing around.

There's no way for any of us to prove it, but I'm pretty sure it would be nowhere near the 3-4 times per match on average presented there.

I think that's the illusory truth effect coming into force tbh, the exaggeration has become truth.

There's also a difference between the opposition failing to capitalise on it, and the defenders doing their jobs to recover the ball following a mistake - not every giveaway = a goalscoring opportunity. Every penalty is though.

24 minutes ago, ram59 said:

Although this is critical of LR's style of play, he is not alone in his way of thinking, you can watch live football at all levels and see how widespread this crazy tactic is. Watching skyports news last night there were several goals conceded by teams poncing around including those managed by LR and Lampard.

Modern football is highly statistics driven, surely the number of goals created is outnumbered by the number of goals conceded by poncing around at the back, so I don't know why this tactic is so common. The game is around 150 years old, but this tactic has only been around very recently, is it down to somebody trying to think of some think new to teach coaches on the UEFA coaching courses?

Fair points, but they do see the statistics, they are qualified coaches and they have access to high-end professional analytics.

I'm not really a fan of it either, but you have to assume that the data is showing them something we're not seeing.

Edited November 9, 2022 by Kokosnuss

[nottingram]

Pratting about with it at the back seems to be a common criticism of the style under Rosenior but I don’t recall us conceding many goals doing it, maybe Cashin trying to control a high ball leading to Plymouth’s winner?

However, under Warne we’ve conceded doing it against Port Vale and Ipswich. Under Rosenior, Wildsmith’s position used to be a decent mitigation for it as he was always high up as an extra option and ready to sweep up if needed, but that was often criticised too. If he’d been higher up against Ipswich their goal would’ve probably been avoided.