Derby v Man City U21s Matchday Thread

[Crewton]

4 minutes ago, alram said:

i am not complaining about that. just that's it's an eye opener at wher we are as a club.

 

i dont care if it's the u23 side of the richest club, it's still an u23 side which a team of senior players should beat. most of them in that team won't go on to play prem football.

Did "where we are as a club" come as a big surprise to you? We're in L1 with a squad cobbled together under severe restrictions, an Academy savaged by Administration and the need to keep the lights on, and a new manager trying different players in a system that's new to most of them. We won't achieve consistency of performance this season. If we're lucky, we might just achieve enough good results to have an outside shout at promotion. Take a look at Ipswich last season as an example of how hard it is and they've had it easy compared to us. 

The hangdog posts and raging impatience of some fans after every defeat are staggering. 

 

[kevinhectoring]

30 minutes ago, alram said:

most of them in that team won't go on to play prem football.

Several from that Citi team could play in the prem now.
 

As for us, Knight might make the fringes of a lower PL team but no one else would right now 

Edited October 19, 2022 by kevinhectoring

[VulcanRam]

4 hours ago, DavesaRam said:

Actually I put the knife in just after the match finished! And although he was poor, and probably would have liked to be wearing a light blue shirt, it was that one decision to not give a free-kick for the foul that swung the game. The ball broke through for roadrunner to score, and our heads went down straight away. Game over.

Dave, you need to get over this referee obsession and that somehow the world is against us and everything's an injustice and it's always everybody's else fault.  Most the the time the architects of our downfalls are.....us.

It wasn't even a foul on Collins. We were just poor/average and Man City were much better, faster and sharper. That's why we lost and they deserved the win. The ref was ok last night, most of them are, with the odd exception. 

[Ghost of Clough]

48 minutes ago, Kokosnuss said:

He did, but from memory only really on the back of some poor form when Cocu started to drop his beliefs and yield to popular opinion. The start of the end for him, really.

I think Davies' lack of passing ability has always been overstated anyway. People clinging onto the memory of Keogh and pretending you need to maraud up the pitch and be involved 50-60 yards away from your goal to be a CB in a good footballing side. HisHe was fine last season, and we played some good stuff.

Talking of Keogh, i didn't realise he was at Ipswich. Hopefully he plays on Friday (probably unlikely), it'd be fun to see him trying to keep up with Osula!

Nah, it was Cocu's first season. Looked like he was possibly even 4th choice in pre-season, yet back in the starting lineup (and captain) by game number 9, and stayed there (playing the full 90 for 19 consecutive games). 

[May Contain Nuts]

17 minutes ago, Crewton said:

The hangdog posts and raging impatience of some fans after every defeat are staggering. 

Equally though is the wall of denial that there are any issues to discuss, or that they (even in the short term) have anything to do with our chosen new style / approach to games.

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

24 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Two of their goals were ‘long balls’ run onto by ‘Usain Bolt’. How does that make them impressive? Odhuro was let down by lack of midfieldsupport. Thomson was awful, most of his passes were poor and he ran around aimlessly - unpopular to say I’m sure. The third was a deflection. 

It wasn’t our first team and some of our youngsters matched theirs.

For me I don’t want to loan any more young players, we need experience.

I agree with some of this Roy but not all.

• The passing and moving combined with speed and energy that City showed was outstanding. We struggled to live with it.
• Odhuro looked out of his depth although he was exposed.
• Rooney looked out of his depth.
• Thompson ran around all over the shop but was, as you say, awful in possession, tackling and passing.

As I've mentioned before, worryingly our manager thought Thompson was superb as such Ive lost faith in his ability to assess. Anyway, lets hope it was all a bad dream and we come out and play Ipswich to death on Friday. Not holding my breath though.

[May Contain Nuts]

9 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Nah, it was Cocu's first season. Looked like he was possibly even 4th choice in pre-season, yet back in the starting lineup (and captain) by game number 9, and stayed there (playing the full 90 for 19 consecutive games). 

Cool, cheers, it's all a bit of a blur.

I was thinking of the time they had a dressing room meeting lead  by the senior players, and the next game we we saw a different approach? Could have sworn that coincided with Davies coming back into the team, but maybe he was dropped again at some point between the first and second seasons!?

I'm not really sure what any of this proves, either way, in relation to a joke about Warne doing a forum poll.

Edited October 19, 2022 by Kokosnuss

[OohMartWright]

Those who are criticising/questioning Warne for saying Thompson played well need to remember that his job is to build confidence, not destroy it. Personally, I think Thompson would benefit greatly from a loan to a League 2 or National League club.

[Magicman]

5 minutes ago, OohMartWright said:

Those who are criticising/questioning Warne for saying Thompson played well need to remember that his job is to build confidence, not destroy it. Personally, I think Thompson would benefit greatly from a loan to a League 2 or National League club.

Thomo has lost form but he needs to be played on left flank between wing back & wide forwards. last night he was put on the right side and asked to cover too much ground. He is a link player not box to box. 

[Ambitious]

4 minutes ago, OohMartWright said:

Those who are criticising/questioning Warne for saying Thompson played well need to remember that his job is to build confidence, not destroy it. Personally, I think Thompson would benefit greatly from a loan to a League 2 or National League club.

Thompson played well in the Championship, for a decent period of time, but has looked miles off it this season when called upon. I agree he needs to build his confidence, but I would expect him to be able to get a loan move at this level and that would be best for all parties. 

[Ghost of Clough]

33 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

Several from that Citi team could play in the prem now.
 

As for us, Knight might make the fringes of a lower PL team but no one else would right now 

Rico Lewis has played in 3 PL games already this season. Both he and Wilson-Esbrand have both plated in the Champions League. Ben Knight has also been involved in the first team squad this season. All three weren't involved in the Mansfield game.
Although, Larios who did play vs Mansfield now plays PL football for Southampton after a £6.3m move on the last day of the transfer window.

[LazloW]

13 minutes ago, OohMartWright said:

Those who are criticising/questioning Warne for saying Thompson played well need to remember that his job is to build confidence, not destroy it. Personally, I think Thompson would benefit greatly from a loan to a League 2 or National League club.

Don’t even think he played particularly poorly either to be honest.  Seems like there is very little room in modern football between ‘a stinker’ and ‘a blinder’; got to be one or the other and no room for ‘he just did OK’ (which is what I think he was).  This isn’t just football though - polarised views are the norm now in everything.

[May Contain Nuts]

Repeatedly going over the details of Man City's players misses the point though, really.

Regardless of who you're playing against and which players you put out, there are certain things you look for and should expect from your own performance, win, lose or draw. (or in the case of the EFL Trophy, Win, Lose, Win-Draw, Lose-Draw or Draw).

It would seem that many people didn't see those things (whatever they may be) from us, hence the complaints.

Lots of the posts since yesterday's defeat have come across as a form of obfuscation, drawing attention away from our our own limitations and failings.

Edited October 19, 2022 by Kokosnuss

[RoyMac5]

44 minutes ago, The Scarlet Pimpernel said:

I agree with some of this Roy but not all.

• The passing and moving combined with speed and energy that City showed was outstanding. We struggled to live with it.
• Odhuro looked out of his depth although he was exposed.
• Rooney looked out of his depth.
• Thompson ran around all over the shop but was, as you say, awful in possession, tackling and passing.

As I've mentioned before, worryingly our manager thought Thompson was superb as such Ive lost faith in his ability to assess. Anyway, lets hope it was all a bad dream and we come out and play Ipswich to death on Friday. Not holding my breath though.

Did Warne think Thomson was good last night? I’m currently actually able to watch Ramstv legally as I’m in Santorini?

Yes I agree their passing and movement was good but not always to any effect and as has been said I’m sure they have played together more than we have.

l was disappointed to lose but we certainly had chances to win, we squandered good chances. 
 

[Crewton]

1 hour ago, Kokosnuss said:

Equally though is the wall of denial that there are any issues to discuss, or that they (even in the short term) have anything to do with our chosen new style / approach to games.

Point me to this wall of 'denial', please, I'd love to see it. I doubt there's anyone who doesn't think there's allot of rebuilding work still to do

[DavesaRam]

1 hour ago, VulcanRam said:

Dave, you need to get over this referee obsession and that somehow the world is against us and everything's an injustice and it's always everybody's else fault.  Most the the time the architects of our downfalls are.....us.

It wasn't even a foul on Collins. We were just poor/average and Man City were much better, faster and sharper. That's why we lost and they deserved the win. The ref was ok last night, most of them are, with the odd exception. 

Beg Pardon? So the world was all for us over the last couple of years, Rick parry loves us, and the EFL were gutted that we were relegated, then? In case you hadn't noticed, the majority of my rantings about referees were from this period of the EFL doing us down, and to most people with both eyes on the front of their head could see that complaints about the officials weren't just down to mistakes/rub of the green, but were consistently against the club. But this applies specifically to the EFL campaign period. I have been a little less vocal, even complimentary this season because the vendetta is over (maybe), and the problems are the lower standard of officiating. Even so, to blandly say nothing and think everything is hunky-dory about how games are controlled is somewhat naïve, and it is I believe right to point such failings out.

Lets put it another way: I don't know what you do for a living, but if you kept turning up and under-performing every day, I am sure that your boss would be having a word, at least. For the vast majority of supporters it would mean them losing their job. I spent 6 years in sales, so underforming meant no sales, which meant no wages, and would mean no job. I now drive HGV, but if everyday I delivered the  loads to the wrong customers, I wouldn't be spending long behind the wheel. So to see match officials consistently underperforming without consequence, and still being appointed to matches is somewhat annoying - especially when a club, and therefore its supporters suffer as a consequence.

You might remember me speaking of not being worried if we lost last night's match, but still ending up angry. It was down to consistent poor officiating, with me most of the time letting it wash over me, given the circumstances. But I didn't actually say that the ref cost us the match, more that having given City free-kicks for very little all night, and specifically in the second half, to not give a free-kick for Collins having his feet kicked away from him was inconsistent. The decision did lead to the goal, but my comments about the match turning from that moment was an observation that our player's heads went down from then onwards. We shouldn't have let our heads drop, but we did - maybe the stark reality of the quality of player were up against, and to have that happen when we had got ourselves back into the match was too much. IE we were second best all night. Maybe I didn't make this clear, in which case I apologise.

I do have something of a reputation re referees, because a couple of years ago at the start of the EFL war I was a lone voice.  But almost week by week more and more were beginning to see what was happening and there were occasions where I didn't need to say anything, because so many others had done. This season is different, and as I have already said, most of the problem is because of poor standards. I don't believe the EFL are against us any more. And I have stated our own shortcomings - eg "playing 3 at the back with everybody forwards against the fastest winger in the country" in the context of the first goal, following several warnings put the blame firmly on Paul Warne's shoulders for getting his tactics wrong.

Besides, if I don't say anything about the refs anymore, what's a guy going to do at match times? Enjoy the football?

Edited October 19, 2022 by DavesaRam

[May Contain Nuts]

28 minutes ago, Crewton said:

Point me to this wall of 'denial', please, I'd love to see it. I doubt there's anyone who doesn't think there's allot of rebuilding work still to do

How do you point toward a collective attitude and tone? Just read the room.

It's not the individual posts people are making, although if it was your 'hangdog posts and raging impatience' line would be pertinent as it comes across as an attempt to dismiss the thoughts of anyone who've having doubts based on what they've seen so far.

My previous post about the focus on Man City covered some of this - it takes away the focus from our own performance, but people aren't generally bothered so much by the fact we lost to Man City's U21s, more so our own performance in doing so.

As you said yourself "I doubt there's anyone who doesn't think there's allot of rebuilding work still to do" - in which case people voicing their concerns clearly aren't showing raging incompetence, just concern.

Edited October 19, 2022 by Kokosnuss

[Foreveram]

2 hours ago, alram said:

i am not complaining about that. just that's it's an eye opener at wher we are as a club.

 

i dont care if it's the u23 side of the richest club, it's still an u23 side which a team of senior players should beat. most of them in that team won't go on to play prem football.

It was under 21.

[DavesaRam]

Interesting from Paul Warne: https://www.dcfc.co.uk/news/2022/10/post-match-verdict-paul-warne-vs-manchester-city-under-21s-h

 

[HorsforthRam]

City were good. They were good to watch. They could put 8-10 passes together no problem even when pressed. They looked in control of the ball. 
 

We rarely look to be able to make 3 passes before it becomes a 50/50 ball. That’s what I find frustrating and ugly to watch.