The Ukraine War

[TigerTedd]

1 hour ago, RoyMac5 said:

It's just an excuse. It's not the here and now. Of course he isn't evil, his actions are.

It's like this:

"Fifa has told Russia to complete their upcoming games in neutral territory under the name the Football Union of Russia without their flag and anthem following the invasion of Ukraine.

Several nations have announced that they will refuse to play Russia, including England, as well as Poland, the Czech Republic and Sweden.

World Cup 2022 play-offs would see Russia face Poland before facing either the Czech Republic or Sweden if they win - and are scheduled to be played in March.

Russian President Vladimir Putin launched a military invasion of neighbouring Ukraine on Thursday.

Polish football association president Cezary Kulesza said Fifa's decision was "totally unacceptable".

"We are not interested in participating in this game of appearances. Our stance remains intact: Polish National Team will not play with Russia, no matter what the name of the team is," he said.

Does this mean Russia could win the World Cup without kicking a ball. If everyone just doesn’t turn up to their matches, surely they forfeit the match. They’ll win their play off with Poland, and win every match up to the final in the same way.

Now I see the master plan. Vlad really is a very clever man. 

[TigerTedd]

1 hour ago, BaaLocks said:

At that time the Soviet Union was dissolved, and the Russians were largely humilated in the years after with the ways they were forced to (for example) decommission nuclear weapons unilaterally in return for aid.

I mentioned before, it’s all just history repeating. This is exactly what prompted Hitler’s rise to power after the first world war. 

poke a wounded bear enough, and it will eventually bite back. And clearly this isn’t going as well for Russia as they’d like. And the natural reaction from the west when they win will be to increase sanctions, increase military presence, and increase the further humiliation of Russia. So this is bound to happen again at some point.

Why can’t we all just learn from Japan.

 

[Mick Brolly]

Not read one thing that in anyway justifies what putin/Russia is doing murdering innocent men women and children the sooner somebody takes this evil dictator out the better.

 

[1of4]

Maybe Putin needs to listen to the speech given by the Kenyan ambassador to the UN.

 

[jono]

52 minutes ago, YouRams said:

Just saw a news interview CNBC from 4 months ago where the reporter asks Putin about moving assets away from the US Dollar to diversify and to stop sanctions having "less of a bite" Since then US and NATO have intensified "training" on Russia's boarder, aint painted Putin out to be Hitler. History repeating itself Gaddafi wanted an independent African currency and look what happened to him. I dont trust a thing thats put out in our mainstream news US and our government are corrupt to the core, as you say horrific what is happening to the Ukrainians but keep poking at Russia and trying to cripple their economy i dont know what the world expects. 

Not that they were “training on the border” because they knew what he was about to do, and has been looking to do since Crimea was annexed. .. ooo no perish the thought, poor Vlad picked on by everyone. He just wants a bit of lebensraum to stretch his legs

And it’s quite ok to send operatives with nerve agents in to a market town of another nation. 

And it’s fine to chose candidates in your elections

And it’s fine to change the constitution so you can be president for life

And it’s fine to arrest your political opponents or help them have accidents 

Now our vile corrupt lot ? .. Well they had a party after lights out and maybe gave a mate a heads up on a big order or got their damp course done on expenses. 
 

You don’t know you are born 

Edited February 27, 2022 by jono

[Stive Pesley]

2 hours ago, Alpha said:

I wish the west would also stop writing one side of the story and elaborate on many of the points you've brought up. But there is no unbiased news in the West or East I guess. 

One of the problems the western media have is that if they paint a broader balanced picture  - then they would have to offer a counter argument - and , by definition, that would have them appear to be justifying the hostile invasion of Ukraine and the needless slaughter and destruction that war brings

The media on both sides should just be pleading for diplomacy and begging for an end to war. It doesn't actually matter who is wrong or right. No one ever went to war and killed another man because they believed themselves to be the baddies

[RadioactiveWaste]

A few things:

Putin's public annoucement he's put nukes on high alert - it's a bluff, and it's because he's losing. The ultimate "I'll set my dad on you"

Resistance from Ukraine has been awe inspiring.

Yes we can debate how well "the west" has responded, but it has been largely united and effective.

We can debate to an extent how we got here, but I'm not havin any of the "brought it on ourselves by not being nice to Russia who just wanted all it's former soviet republics to have pro-russian puppet governments"

This war is far more than i expected, i honestly thought he'd just annex two more of Ukraine's provinces (and that the west would let him). Putin might still get a ceasefire that gives him the 2 provinces, but to end with that after his rhetoric would be a massive defeat.

Having failed in their initial offensives, this could last a long time, and be very ugly. There is going to be a lot of suffering. Putin must be defeated. To not do so after this would be unthinkable. This is not an attack on territory, or about a regeme change. This is an attack on democracy, self determination, freedom and we have a duty to fight against that.

There are ways we can help Ukraine, humaintarian efforts or donations.

Glory to Ukraine.

 

[BaaLocks]

2 hours ago, Highgate said:

Very good post in many respects and there is a lot I'd agree with there.  But I can't agree that Putin is not a despot.  If he is not then I don't know what a despot is. 

Look at how he came to power in Russia, how he has enriched himself (he is a billionaire on a government salary) and his friends.  Look at the grip he has on internal security in Russia, the unrelenting propaganda machine that is the Russian state media and the ridiculous sham elections where he picks the candidates. What happens to his political opponents? Yes he has his supporters and many of the older generation like his style of 'strong' leadership. But  Is it safe for anyone to criticize Putin in Russia?  I'd say Putin is the archetypal despot.

My definition of despot involves someone solely concerned with personal benefit and betterment. Putin is not doing this to better himself, or to benefit financially or otherwise in my opinion. He is doing this because he repeatedly states that Russia needs to redress what it sees as years of influence in their internal and regional affairs. For example, and it's not about whether it is true but on what he believes, he states he has evidence that the Orange Revolution was funded and supported by the US.

As for being a billionaire out of this, he certainly has not benefitted from the break up of Russian state industries anywhere near the level of the likes of Khodorkovsky, Deripaska, Abramovich and others.

So, compared to the likes of Saddam Hussein, Idi Amin, Mugabe etc I personally would not describe as a despot even though it is in the interest of western media positioning to make him out as such. Most people in Russia have a significantly improved standard of living than they did when he came to power - that is not what I see as the normal impact a despot has.

[BaaLocks]

2 hours ago, Tamworthram said:

Thank goodness it was only a few word. ?

Well constructed and informative post however, I don’t quite understand two points you have made:

1) Why is it relevant that 7 other states have integrated back into the CIS trading block? If Ukraine had chosen to do so then there wouldn’t really being an issue but they haven’t 

2) The two areas you have quoted may well have voted to rejoin Russia but how does that justify the full invasion of Ukraine?

1: I was trying to make the point that many neighbours of Russia see benefit to be closely linked to them politically and economically. Ukraine were happy to do that when Yanukovich was in power, now they don't. I'm not suggesting Ukraine should, i do get they have been invaded and I repeat, again, that is terrible and not right.

2: I am not justifying the invasion of Ukraine, in any way. Apologies if that ever seems to be the case. It isn't.

[Alph]

22 minutes ago, Mick Brolly said:

Not read one thing that in anyway justifies what putin/Russia is doing murdering innocent men women and children the sooner somebody takes this evil dictator out the better.

 

I don't think anyone is trying to justify it. 

There is no justification. 

More like trying to explain what has happened to make him think that he needs to do what he's done. 

Which are things we can ignore and hope that more people like him don't replace him who feel threatened by NATO expansion. We can send more troops to the middle east, pick and choose what republics and governments we recognise safe in the knowledge that we are the good guys. 

Putin is not alone in thinking like this. I just think it's more productive to ask 'why' rather than assume they're just evil. 

Putin's justification is "look at what America have done in the name of freedom" 

While that's a terrible attempt at justifying his invasion that doesn't make him wrong. There are Western powers that have shown plenty of Russian aggression since WW2

[Alph]

17 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

One of the problems the western media have is that if they paint a broader balanced picture  - then they would have to offer a counter argument - and , by definition, that would have them appear to be justifying the hostile invasion of Ukraine and the needless slaughter and destruction that war brings

The media on both sides should just be pleading for diplomacy and begging for an end to war. It doesn't actually matter who is wrong or right. No one ever went to war and killed another man because they believed themselves to be the baddies

Following as much Russian and Chinese coverage as I can and it's just the other side of the coin. Sadly. 

I wasn't trying to suggest Western coverage is anything worse. 

Just more that it's nice to get both views and I'm a bit disappointed that some of the Russian stuff is being censored. 

[Highgate]

7 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

My definition of despot involves someone solely concerned with personal benefit and betterment. Putin is not doing this to better himself, or to benefit financially or otherwise in my opinion. He is doing this because he repeatedly states that Russia needs to redress what it sees as years of influence in their internal and regional affairs. For example, and it's not about whether it is true but on what he believes, he states he has evidence that the Orange Revolution was funded and supported by the US.

As for being a billionaire out of this, he certainly has not benefitted from the break up of Russian state industries anywhere near the level of the likes of Khodorkovsky, Deripaska, Abramovich and others.

So, compared to the likes of Saddam Hussein, Idi Amin, Mugabe etc I personally would not describe as a despot even though it is in the interest of western media positioning to make him out as such. Most people in Russia have a significantly improved standard of living than they did when he came to power - that is not what I see as the normal impact a despot has.

Well that explains our difference of opinion then, I'm working off a different definition of despot.  Mine is someone who controls a country/region with absolute coercive power, for whatever ends, and exercises such power in a frequently ruthless way.

[Alph]

Completely irresponsible comments on a Russian TV show. 

On Nuclear threat

"What is the point of the world without a Russia"

Thank God The Roman Empire didn't have a nuclear weapon

[Cisse]

14 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Completely irresponsible comments on a Russian TV show. 

On Nuclear threat

"What is the point of the world without a Russia"

Thank God The Roman Empire didn't have a nuclear weapon

Russian media is actually the key in here. Today we got new headlines here because some poor Russian ski jumper supposedly made a mistake in an interview after the competition.

He got asked what does it feel like to compete when all this is going on?

He answered "What is going on?

Interviewer said The war?

Ski jumper asked "What war?"

Interviewer Ukraine?

Ski jumper "Oh you mean the rescue operation in Ukraine?"

The guy was baffled. He didn't know what is going on. He didn't make "a mistake" in his interview. 

In Russia people have been taught to look down and stay the heck away of anything involved with government or bureaucrats. That has always been the best way of staying out of trouble. People like us can't really understand it because we have never lived in a world like that. You wouldn't believe what happens there and never comes out to the open. A lot of people are really poor, they live basically in huts. There are skyscrapers that get water inside. For an hour in a day. You just don't know which hour. If you wake up at night and hear that someone is getting water you get up pretty quick and gather all the water you can get. Forget about wi-fi.

Their history books are fairytales. You can't blame the people because they have been lied to since they were kids. Their history is totally different from British history books or ours. 

Some time when I have more time I'll start a thread about stories about Russians. I don't mean anti Russian thread but things that I know have happened there and never got into the news. Amazing stories.

 

[1of4]

1 hour ago, Highgate said:

Well that explains our difference of opinion then, I'm working off a different definition of despot.  Mine is someone who controls a country/region with absolute coercive power, for whatever ends, and exercises such power in a frequently ruthless way.

Yep, I'll go with your definition of a despot. @BaaLocks definition of a despot, sounds more like a description of Jeff Bezos.

 

 

[BaaLocks]

8 hours ago, Highgate said:

Well that explains our difference of opinion then, I'm working off a different definition of despot.  Mine is someone who controls a country/region with absolute coercive power, for whatever ends, and exercises such power in a frequently ruthless way.

On 3rd Feb 2022 the United Nations voted Moscow the best city in the world to live in in terms of 'quality of life' and 'infrastructure development' and fourth overall.

The report defines quality of life as “how an individual’s life or society’s condition is in comparison to another person or society, i.e. how good (or bad) someone’s life is compared to other individuals’ lives. Therefore, this is the measurement of a city’s average achievements for ensuring general well-being and satisfaction of its citizens.”

Infrastructure development is defined as “the set of basic physical systems, organizational structures, facilities, and installations needed for the functioning of a society, or economy. The prosperity of a city largely depends on the development of infrastructure, including transportation, communication, or provision of [basic] services, among others.”

If that feels to you like a despotic state then I'd suggest we all live in one. Indeed, as for your last sentence I say, without any irony, that I could list actions of the current UK government that would easily fall into that category.

[BaaLocks]

7 hours ago, Cisse said:

Russian media is actually the key in here. Today we got new headlines here because some poor Russian ski jumper supposedly made a mistake in an interview after the competition.

He got asked what does it feel like to compete when all this is going on?

He answered "What is going on?

Interviewer said The war?

Ski jumper asked "What war?"

Interviewer Ukraine?

Ski jumper "Oh you mean the rescue operation in Ukraine?"

The guy was baffled. He didn't know what is going on. He didn't make "a mistake" in his interview. 

In Russia people have been taught to look down and stay the heck away of anything involved with government or bureaucrats. That has always been the best way of staying out of trouble. People like us can't really understand it because we have never lived in a world like that. You wouldn't believe what happens there and never comes out to the open. A lot of people are really poor, they live basically in huts. There are skyscrapers that get water inside. For an hour in a day. You just don't know which hour. If you wake up at night and hear that someone is getting water you get up pretty quick and gather all the water you can get. Forget about wi-fi.

Their history books are fairytales. You can't blame the people because they have been lied to since they were kids. Their history is totally different from British history books or ours. 

Some time when I have more time I'll start a thread about stories about Russians. I don't mean anti Russian thread but things that I know have happened there and never got into the news. Amazing stories.

 

I won't 100% refute your story on the skier, though I can't find any record on Google of a ski jumping event even taking place since the start of the conflict (yes, invasion), never mind any interviews of competitors. Fact checking things like this at this time before you post is really important, for all sides.

But I can tell you, 100%, that Russian people are fully aware of what is going on at every level. A five minute cursory glance at social media will tell you that and I can confirm it because I was talking to some of them yesterday. 

As for the rest of the post, people living in huts, no wi-fi etc. At best misinformed.

As for the point on Russian history books being fairytales - does that include the one about the 35m people who died (roll that number around in your head a little before you reply) helping defeat the Nazis. The country is in terminal decline based on that effort (if you have three children in Russia now you get your mortgage paid off - more despotic actions from the tyrant leader - such is the diminishing birthrate caused by the desolation of the, largely, male population then).

I don't debate that Russian media is state controlled but your frame of reference, somehow suggesting their history is wrong because it is different from British history, is a good example of how and why this situation has been utterly mishandled by the West, not just in the last few weeks but in the last 50 years.

Edited February 28, 2022 by BaaLocks

[Tamworthram]

8 hours ago, BaaLocks said:

1: I was trying to make the point that many neighbours of Russia see benefit to be closely linked to them politically and economically. Ukraine were happy to do that when Yanukovich was in power, now they don't. I'm not suggesting Ukraine should, i do get they have been invaded and I repeat, again, that is terrible and not right.

2: I am not justifying the invasion of Ukraine, in any way. Apologies if that ever seems to be the case. It isn't.

No apologies necessary buddy. I read your post as an explanation rather than a justification but, regarding point two, I struggling to see how a full scale invasion can be explained by the position in those two areas.

[TigerTedd]

1 hour ago, BaaLocks said:

On 3rd Feb 2022 the United Nations voted Moscow the best city in the world to live in in terms of 'quality of life' and 'infrastructure development' and fourth overall.

The report defines quality of life as “how an individual’s life or society’s condition is in comparison to another person or society, i.e. how good (or bad) someone’s life is compared to other individuals’ lives. Therefore, this is the measurement of a city’s average achievements for ensuring general well-being and satisfaction of its citizens.”

Infrastructure development is defined as “the set of basic physical systems, organizational structures, facilities, and installations needed for the functioning of a society, or economy. The prosperity of a city largely depends on the development of infrastructure, including transportation, communication, or provision of [basic] services, among others.”

If that feels to you like a despotic state then I'd suggest we all live in one. Indeed, as for your last sentence I say, without any irony, that I could list actions of the current UK government that would easily fall into that category.

But hasn’t everywhere, generally, seen an increase in standard of living in the past 20-30 years. That’s just progress and technology. What I mean is, any leader would have probably overseen similar levels progress, the progress was just bound to happen over the past few decades. But another leader might not have been quite so despotic about it. 

The fact is he is a billionaire that has only ever worked in the public sector, as far as I can tell. So are loads of his mates. That sets alarm bells ringing straight away. He’s not Robin Hood, he’s not going out and giving that money to kids on the street. Hitler improved the quality of life for the average German as well (as long as you weren’t a Jew, or a gypsie, or black).

russia may well be an amazing place to live, and it’s certainly somewhere I’d like to visit one day, that may well be I spite of him, not because of him. 

[Cisse]

1 hour ago, BaaLocks said:

I won't 100% refute your story on the skier, though I can't find any record on Google of a ski jumping event even taking place since the start of the conflict (yes, invasion), never mind any interviews of competitors. Fact checking things like this at this time before you post is really important, for all sides.

But I can tell you, 100%, that Russian people are fully aware of what is going on at every level. A five minute cursory glance at social media will tell you that and I can confirm it because I was talking to some of them yesterday. 

As for the rest of the post, people living in huts, no wi-fi etc. At best misinformed.

As for the point on Russian history books being fairytales - does that include the one about the 35m people who died (roll that number around in your head a little before you reply) helping defeat the Nazis. The country is in terminal decline based on that effort (if you have three children in Russia now you get your mortgage paid off - more despotic actions from the tyrant leader - such is the diminishing birthrate caused by the desolation of the, largely, male population then).

I don't debate that Russian media is state controlled but your frame of reference, somehow suggesting their history is wrong because it is different from British history, is a good example of how and why this situation has been utterly mishandled by the West, not just in the last few weeks but in the last 50 years.

Nordic combined competition was held in Salpausselkä last weekend and the guy was on tv commenting about Ukraine war. I don't know actually about British history books myself but I've read that they are written the same way than ours and everybody elses. A friend of mine has studied in Russia and she confirmed that there are a lot of things in russians historybook that are not the truth. This has been reported in media here several times. For example they lie about how the war started between Finland and Russia.