The Ukraine War

[Alph]

6 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

I'm not going to get dragged into too much of this because I have family directly involved but I thought I would offer a few words that might help some understand the perspective from the other side.

- Putin is not a despot, he is not in this for personal gain or infamy. He rationally believes that Ukraine was ripped away from Russia at the break up of the Soviet Union. Kiev is the historic founding of the Russian people, Russians view Ukraine as their cousins in much the same way that Scots and Irish do - they are Slavs by 'tribe' in the same way that Scots are Celts. BTW - I do recognize that Ukraine is a divided country itself and many Catholic Ukrainians (in the West of the country) would not share this view. Ukraine has been independent since 1991 but this is not a country with thousands of years of independence, for most of it's history it has been a part of Russia, Austro-Hungary or Poland. Again, I repeat, this does not entitle invasion but Putin is merely of the belief he needs to reset things to what they were.

- Consequently, Putin is repeatedly saying that what he is doing is for Mother Russia. I don't say I agree with it, but it's not as simple as the 'evil regime' some in the West are trying to put on him. Back in Russia he is very popular and has done (without doubt) to lift up the standard of living of nearly all Russians.

- This goes back to the breakup of the Berlin Wall, at the very latest. At that time the Soviet Union was dissolved, and the Russians were largely humilated in the years after with the ways they were forced to (for example) decommission nuclear weapons unilaterally in return for aid. And, as Putin says, 'even this was not enough for the West' as they then funded seperatists in Chechnya, Georgia and other areas. Without doubt, and again not trying to excuse anyone, Russians are endemically paranoid - and have been way before the WWII (or the Great Patriotic War as they call it) and are bathed in the belief that the actions of their fathers (and let's not forget without their laying down 35 million lives it is pretty clear the Second World War would not have ended when it did - at least) should not go to waste.

- The West has systemically tried to undermine Russia since the Berlin Wall dissolved. Of course, in later years, Russia has reacted to this (Salisbury poisionings, election interfering etc) with clear hostility but don't forget, it's not too long since British spies were caught laying cameras outside influential locations in Moscow.

- There is a unique moment here for Putin to act. America is weak, the world is still reeling from the pandemic, Germany is in political transition, the US and the UK have (let's keep it polite) leaders that will not be remembered as the greatest to serve their country. And alongside this, Russia has been told to step back on watch the US try to control the Middle East (Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan). Now when Russia says they want to 'integrate' Ukraine back under their control (again, let's not forget that Ukraine has declared intent to join NATO, to have NATO military right up against Russian borders - for a country that remembers being invaded in 1941, like it or not, this is just not acceptable so Russia sees this as the best way to prevent that). BTW - there are already seven states reintegrating back into a sort of CIS style trading block, including some of the 'stans, Belarus and Armenia. This is not just about reinventing the Soviet Union.

So, what is happening is horrific, it's undefendable as an action but it is also possible to take a moment to understand why it was done and what the rational is behind it.

Final point - it would help a LOT if someone could get Liz Truss to read this post as her references and statements are so incorrect in their frames of history that they are insulting and completely unhelpful. That, above all, is my biggest fear - not Putin (who let's not forget has been in power since before Boris even got into politics in any form) but that the, frankly, amateurs on this side of the fence simply don't know what they are dealiing with. We desperately need a Merkel, even a Thatcher, who can handle this in the way that is needed, not some of the faux Churchillian bombast seen from too many (not just UK) leaders.

Hope that helps, as I say I'm not doing debate on it - if you disagree please feel free to do so but, with all respect, I have friends and family to be looking out for at this time so please excuse me if this doesn't answer all the points.

Brilliant post. 

Spent days trying to convince people in real life that Putin is not evil. That it's possible to disagree with his actions but understand his thought process. 

Personally I have a strong dislike of the way USA conducts itself. More so than Russia. But anyway, whatever. 

 

[AndyinLiverpool]

2 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Brilliant post. 

Spent days trying to convince people in real life that Putin is not evil. That it's possible to disagree with his actions but understand his thought process. 

Personally I have a strong dislike of the way USA conducts itself. More so than Russia. But anyway, whatever. 

 

Where does the stuff about drug addicts and neo-nazis come from?

[Alph]

@BaaLocks I wish I could give more likes to your post. 

I wish the west would also stop writing one side of the story and elaborate on many of the points you've brought up. But there is no unbiased news in the West or East I guess. 

[Alph]

2 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

Where does the stuff about drug addicts and neo-nazis come from?

Doesn't the neo-nazi's refer to the Azov Battalion and such?

[Mick Brolly]

There's only one person/country that has invaded another and started killing innocent people 

[DarkFruitsRam7]

22 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Brilliant post. 

Spent days trying to convince people in real life that Putin is not evil. That it's possible to disagree with his actions but understand his thought process. 

Personally I have a strong dislike of the way USA conducts itself. More so than Russia. But anyway, whatever. 

Is it not possible to be evil and rational at the same time?

Edited February 27, 2022 by DarkFruitsRam7

[Highgate]

21 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

I'm not going to get dragged into too much of this because I have family directly involved but I thought I would offer a few words that might help some understand the perspective from the other side.

- Putin is not a despot, he is not in this for personal gain or infamy. He rationally believes that Ukraine was ripped away from Russia at the break up of the Soviet Union. Kiev is the historic founding of the Russian people, Russians view Ukraine as their cousins in much the same way that Scots and Irish do - they are Slavs by 'tribe' in the same way that Scots are Celts. BTW - I do recognize that Ukraine is a divided country itself and many Catholic Ukrainians (in the West of the country) would not share this view. Ukraine has been independent since 1991 but this is not a country with thousands of years of independence, for most of it's history it has been a part of Russia, Austro-Hungary or Poland. Again, I repeat, this does not entitle invasion but Putin is merely of the belief he needs to reset things to what they were.

- Consequently, Putin is repeatedly saying that what he is doing is for Mother Russia. I don't say I agree with it, but it's not as simple as the 'evil regime' some in the West are trying to put on him. Back in Russia he is very popular and has done (without doubt) a huge amount to lift up the standard of living of nearly all Russians. Moscow, and many other cities, are great places to live and the support networks that most Russians enjoy put ours to shame (schools, local councils, healthcare etc).

- This goes back to the breakup of the Berlin Wall, at the very latest. At that time the Soviet Union was dissolved, and the Russians were largely humilated in the years after with the ways they were forced to (for example) decommission nuclear weapons unilaterally in return for aid. And, as Putin says, 'even this was not enough for the West' as they then funded seperatists in Chechnya, Georgia and other areas. Without doubt, and again not trying to excuse anyone, Russians are endemically paranoid - and have been way before the WWII (or the Great Patriotic War as they call it) and are bathed in the belief that the actions of their fathers (and let's not forget without their laying down 35 million lives it is pretty clear the Second World War would not have ended when it did - at least) should not go to waste.

- The West has systemically tried to undermine Russia since the Berlin Wall dissolved. Of course, in later years, Russia has reacted to this (Salisbury poisionings, election interfering etc) with clear hostility but don't forget, it's not too long since British spies were caught laying cameras outside influential locations in Moscow.

- There is a unique moment here for Putin to act. America is weak, the world is still reeling from the pandemic, Germany is in political transition, the US and the UK have (let's keep it polite) leaders that will not be remembered as the greatest to serve their country. And alongside this, Russia has been told to step back on watch the US try to control the Middle East (Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan) among other activities. If you are interested in American foreign policy look up a concept called 'manifest destiny' - Russians reject the American belief that they have the right to go imposing their views on other people in their countries - even President Xi of China said the same thing the other day. Now when Russia says they want to 'integrate' Ukraine back under their control (again, let's not forget that Ukraine has declared intent to join NATO, to have NATO military right up against Russian borders - for a country that remembers being invaded in 1941, like it or not, this is just not acceptable so Russia sees this as the best way to prevent that) there was no reasonable way to look at that (note: in 2014 the referendum in Donbass and Lugansk clearly voted to be part of Russia. Yes, you can question the result but it was a bit more than 52%, if I may). BTW - there are already seven states reintegrating back into a sort of CIS style trading block, including some of the 'stans, Belarus and Armenia. This is not just about reinventing the Soviet Union.

So, what is happening is horrific, it's undefendable as an action but it is also possible to take a moment to understand why it was done and what the rational is behind it.

Final point - it would help a LOT if someone could get Liz Truss to read this post as her references and statements are so incorrect in their frames of history that they are insulting and completely unhelpful. That, above all, is my biggest fear - not Putin (who let's not forget has been in power since before Boris even got into politics in any form) but that the, frankly, amateurs on this side of the fence simply don't know what they are dealiing with. We desperately need a Merkel, even a Thatcher, who can handle this in the way that is needed, not some of the faux Churchillian bombast seen from too many (not just UK) leaders.

Hope that helps, as I say I'm not doing debate on it - if you disagree please feel free to do so but, with all respect, I have friends and family to be looking out for at this time so please excuse me if this doesn't answer all the points.

Very good post in many respects and there is a lot I'd agree with there.  But I can't agree that Putin is not a despot.  If he is not then I don't know what a despot is. 

Look at how he came to power in Russia, how he has enriched himself (he is a billionaire on a government salary) and his friends.  Look at the grip he has on internal security in Russia, the unrelenting propaganda machine that is the Russian state media and the ridiculous sham elections where he picks the candidates. What happens to his political opponents? Yes he has his supporters and many of the older generation like his style of 'strong' leadership. But  Is it safe for anyone to criticize Putin in Russia?  I'd say Putin is the archetypal despot.

[RoyMac5]

18 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Brilliant post. 

Spent days trying to convince people in real life that Putin is not evil. That it's possible to disagree with his actions but understand his thought process. 

Personally I have a strong dislike of the way USA conducts itself. More so than Russia. But anyway, whatever. 

 

It's just an excuse. It's not the here and now. Of course he isn't evil, his actions are.

It's like this:

"Fifa has told Russia to complete their upcoming games in neutral territory under the name the Football Union of Russia without their flag and anthem following the invasion of Ukraine.

Several nations have announced that they will refuse to play Russia, including England, as well as Poland, the Czech Republic and Sweden.

World Cup 2022 play-offs would see Russia face Poland before facing either the Czech Republic or Sweden if they win - and are scheduled to be played in March.

Russian President Vladimir Putin launched a military invasion of neighbouring Ukraine on Thursday.

Polish football association president Cezary Kulesza said Fifa's decision was "totally unacceptable".

"We are not interested in participating in this game of appearances. Our stance remains intact: Polish National Team will not play with Russia, no matter what the name of the team is," he said.

Edited February 27, 2022 by RoyMac5

[Tamworthram]

17 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

I'm not going to get dragged into too much of this because I have family directly involved but I thought I would offer a few words that might help some understand the perspective from the other side.

- Putin is not a despot, he is not in this for personal gain or infamy. He rationally believes that Ukraine was ripped away from Russia at the break up of the Soviet Union. Kiev is the historic founding of the Russian people, Russians view Ukraine as their cousins in much the same way that Scots and Irish do - they are Slavs by 'tribe' in the same way that Scots are Celts. BTW - I do recognize that Ukraine is a divided country itself and many Catholic Ukrainians (in the West of the country) would not share this view. Ukraine has been independent since 1991 but this is not a country with thousands of years of independence, for most of it's history it has been a part of Russia, Austro-Hungary or Poland. Again, I repeat, this does not entitle invasion but Putin is merely of the belief he needs to reset things to what they were.

- Consequently, Putin is repeatedly saying that what he is doing is for Mother Russia. I don't say I agree with it, but it's not as simple as the 'evil regime' some in the West are trying to put on him. Back in Russia he is very popular and has done (without doubt) a huge amount to lift up the standard of living of nearly all Russians. Moscow, and many other cities, are great places to live and the support networks that most Russians enjoy put ours to shame (schools, local councils, healthcare etc).

- This goes back to the breakup of the Berlin Wall, at the very latest. At that time the Soviet Union was dissolved, and the Russians were largely humilated in the years after with the ways they were forced to (for example) decommission nuclear weapons unilaterally in return for aid. And, as Putin says, 'even this was not enough for the West' as they then funded seperatists in Chechnya, Georgia and other areas. The West, largely the US, has interfered in Russian domestic matters consistently while at the very same time castigating Russia for doing the same (e.g. Syria).

- Without doubt, and again not trying to excuse anyone, Russians are endemically paranoid - and have been way before the WWII (or the Great Patriotic War as they call it) and are bathed in the belief that the actions of their fathers (and let's not forget without their laying down 35 million lives it is pretty clear the Second World War would not have ended when it did - at least) should not go to waste. Churchill famously described Russia as a riddle inside a mystery inside an enigma (or something maybe not in that order) and the West has repeatedly failed to see this over the past thirty years, consitently failed to take the opportunity to calm the situation and understand it from the other side.

- The West has systemically tried to undermine Russia since the Berlin Wall dissolved. Of course, in later years, Russia has reacted to this (Salisbury poisionings, election interfering etc) with clear hostility but don't forget, it's not too long since British spies were caught laying cameras outside influential locations in Moscow.

- There is a unique moment here for Putin to act. America is weak, the world is still reeling from the pandemic, Germany is in political transition, the US and the UK have (let's keep it polite) leaders that will not be remembered as the greatest to serve their country. And alongside this, Russia has been told to step back on watch the US try to control the Middle East (Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan) among other activities. If you are interested in American foreign policy look up a concept called 'manifest destiny' - Russians reject the American belief that they have the right to go imposing their views on other people in their countries - even President Xi of China said the same thing the other day. Now when Russia says they want to 'integrate' Ukraine back under their control (again, let's not forget that Ukraine has declared intent to join NATO, to have NATO military right up against Russian borders - for a country that remembers being invaded in 1941, like it or not, this is just not acceptable so Russia sees this as the best way to prevent that) there was no reasonable way to look at that (note: in 2014 the referendum in Donbass and Lugansk clearly voted to be part of Russia. Yes, you can question the result but it was a bit more than 52%, if I may). BTW - there are already seven states reintegrating back into a sort of CIS style trading block, including some of the 'stans, Belarus and Armenia. This is not just about reinventing the Soviet Union.

So, what is happening is horrific, it's undefendable as an action but it is also possible to take a moment to understand why it was done and what the rational is behind it.

Final point - it would help a LOT if someone could get Liz Truss to read this post as her references and statements are so incorrect in their frames of history that they are insulting and completely unhelpful. That, above all, is my biggest fear - not Putin (who let's not forget has been in power since before Boris even got into politics in any form) but that the, frankly, amateurs on this side of the fence simply don't know what they are dealiing with. We desperately need a Merkel, even a Thatcher, who can handle this in the way that is needed, not some of the faux Churchillian bombast seen from too many (not just UK) leaders.

Hope that helps, as I say I'm not doing debate on it - if you disagree please feel free to do so but, with all respect, I have friends and family to be looking out for at this time so please excuse me if this doesn't answer all the points.

BTW - for anyone reading this who is Ukranian, my heart goes out to what your country is being put through. My prayers are that this can be resolved quickly and without more bloodshed.

But, and be sure, this is the single biggest threat to all our lives since at least WWII (may even including, given we didn't have nuclear bombs then). This only takes one person to misunderstand one signal, one command, one movement and we are all toast. Very, very worrying.

Thank goodness it was only a few word. ?

Well constructed and informative post however, I don’t quite understand two points you have made:

1) Why is it relevant that 7 other states have integrated back into the CIS trading block? If Ukraine had chosen to do so then there wouldn’t really being an issue but they haven’t 

2) The two areas you have quoted may well have voted to rejoin Russia but how does that justify the full invasion of Ukraine?

[Alph]

Just now, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

Is it not possible to be rational and evil at the same time?

I don't think so. Maybe, but I don't believe Putin is evil for many of the reasons mentioned. I think if you took time to understand his thought process you would see that and it's a shame that many won't nor will they ask similar critical questions of our own leaders and their military operations, meddling. 

100% against the war in Ukraine btw. 

 

[Alph]

18 minutes ago, Mick Brolly said:

There's only one person/country that has invaded another and started killing innocent people 

That's not true, mate. 

[jono]

43 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

I'm not going to get dragged into too much of this because I have family directly involved but I thought I would offer a few words that might help some understand the perspective from the other side.

- Putin is not a despot, he is not in this for personal gain or infamy. He rationally believes that Ukraine was ripped away from Russia at the break up of the Soviet Union. Kiev is the historic founding of the Russian people, Russians view Ukraine as their cousins in much the same way that Scots and Irish do - they are Slavs by 'tribe' in the same way that Scots are Celts. BTW - I do recognize that Ukraine is a divided country itself and many Catholic Ukrainians (in the West of the country) would not share this view. Ukraine has been independent since 1991 but this is not a country with thousands of years of independence, for most of it's history it has been a part of Russia, Austro-Hungary or Poland. Again, I repeat, this does not entitle invasion but Putin is merely of the belief he needs to reset things to what they were.

- Consequently, Putin is repeatedly saying that what he is doing is for Mother Russia. I don't say I agree with it, but it's not as simple as the 'evil regime' some in the West are trying to put on him. Back in Russia he is very popular and has done (without doubt) to lift up the standard of living of nearly all Russians.

- This goes back to the breakup of the Berlin Wall, at the very latest. At that time the Soviet Union was dissolved, and the Russians were largely humilated in the years after with the ways they were forced to (for example) decommission nuclear weapons unilaterally in return for aid. And, as Putin says, 'even this was not enough for the West' as they then funded seperatists in Chechnya, Georgia and other areas. Without doubt, and again not trying to excuse anyone, Russians are endemically paranoid - and have been way before the WWII (or the Great Patriotic War as they call it) and are bathed in the belief that the actions of their fathers (and let's not forget without their laying down 35 million lives it is pretty clear the Second World War would not have ended when it did - at least) should not go to waste.

- The West has systemically tried to undermine Russia since the Berlin Wall dissolved. Of course, in later years, Russia has reacted to this (Salisbury poisionings, election interfering etc) with clear hostility but don't forget, it's not too long since British spies were caught laying cameras outside influential locations in Moscow.

- There is a unique moment here for Putin to act. America is weak, the world is still reeling from the pandemic, Germany is in political transition, the US and the UK have (let's keep it polite) leaders that will not be remembered as the greatest to serve their country. And alongside this, Russia has been told to step back on watch the US try to control the Middle East (Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan). Now when Russia says they want to 'integrate' Ukraine back under their control (again, let's not forget that Ukraine has declared intent to join NATO, to have NATO military right up against Russian borders - for a country that remembers being invaded in 1941, like it or not, this is just not acceptable so Russia sees this as the best way to prevent that). BTW - there are already seven states reintegrating back into a sort of CIS style trading block, including some of the 'stans, Belarus and Armenia. This is not just about reinventing the Soviet Union.

So, what is happening is horrific, it's undefendable as an action but it is also possible to take a moment to understand why it was done and what the rational is behind it.

Final point - it would help a LOT if someone could get Liz Truss to read this post as her references and statements are so incorrect in their frames of history that they are insulting and completely unhelpful. That, above all, is my biggest fear - not Putin (who let's not forget has been in power since before Boris even got into politics in any form) but that the, frankly, amateurs on this side of the fence simply don't know what they are dealiing with. We desperately need a Merkel, even a Thatcher, who can handle this in the way that is needed, not some of the faux Churchillian bombast seen from too many (not just UK) leaders.

Hope that helps, as I say I'm not doing debate on it - if you disagree please feel free to do so but, with all respect, I have friends and family to be looking out for at this time so please excuse me if this doesn't answer all the points.

I have huge respect for your intimate knowledge and historical perspective. I can’t and wouldn’t want to gain say your contentions. I’d only throw in to the mix that “Ukrainians”  expressed a wish to join NATO. In the same breath we could say the Scots via the SNP wanted to remain in the EU. Hitler also felt Austria and the Sudetenland were part of greater Germany.

Perspective and the actions taken from those different perspectives by different orders tell me a lot. 

 

[Alph]

12 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

It's just an excuse. It's not the here and now. Of course he isn't evil, his actions are.

It's like this:

"Fifa has told Russia to complete their upcoming games in neutral territory under the name the Football Union of Russia without their flag and anthem following the invasion of Ukraine.

Several nations have announced that they will refuse to play Russia, including England, as well as Poland, the Czech Republic and Sweden.

World Cup 2022 play-offs would see Russia face Poland before facing either the Czech Republic or Sweden if they win - and are scheduled to be played in March.

Russian President Vladimir Putin launched a military invasion of neighbouring Ukraine on Thursday.

Polish football association president Cezary Kulesza said Fifa's decision was "totally unacceptable".

"We are not interested in participating in this game of appearances. Our stance remains intact: Polish National Team will not play with Russia, no matter what the name of the team is," he said.

Tbh, I don't really see how football and Eurovision gets in the headlines during this really stressful time. 

I can't make you go look into the motivations of Putin. I respect your opinion. But I feel that there's part of the problem in not recognising some of our own and allies foreign affairs. And not recognising some of the antagonising against Russia in terms of not recognising regions voting for independence and actions taken against the people in that region by the likes of Azov Battalion. 

That will always be sad imo. That we see our meddling and alliances and military interventions etc as a pursuit of world peace and freedom 

While we see others as their pursuit of dictatorships, oppression and such. 

Again, 100% against the war in Ukraine. I just find the whole thing sad. Some of the actions of Western countries in the middle east I personally think I closer to acts of evil. 

Those acts can't justify what Putin is doing (and yes he's trying to use them to). But it's just a constant bias that will just manifest like this. 

[EtoileSportiveDeDerby]

49 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

I'm not going to get dragged into too much of this because I have family directly involved but I thought I would offer a few words that might help some understand the perspective from the other side.

- Putin is not a despot, he is not in this for personal gain or infamy. He rationally believes that Ukraine was ripped away from Russia at the break up of the Soviet Union. Kiev is the historic founding of the Russian people, Russians view Ukraine as their cousins in much the same way that Scots and Irish do - they are Slavs by 'tribe' in the same way that Scots are Celts. BTW - I do recognize that Ukraine is a divided country itself and many Catholic Ukrainians (in the West of the country) would not share this view. Ukraine has been independent since 1991 but this is not a country with thousands of years of independence, for most of it's history it has been a part of Russia, Austro-Hungary or Poland. Again, I repeat, this does not entitle invasion but Putin is merely of the belief he needs to reset things to what they were.

- Consequently, Putin is repeatedly saying that what he is doing is for Mother Russia. I don't say I agree with it, but it's not as simple as the 'evil regime' some in the West are trying to put on him. Back in Russia he is very popular and has done (without doubt) a huge amount to lift up the standard of living of nearly all Russians. Moscow, and many other cities, are great places to live and the support networks that most Russians enjoy put ours to shame (schools, local councils, healthcare etc).

- This goes back to the breakup of the Berlin Wall, at the very latest. At that time the Soviet Union was dissolved, and the Russians were largely humilated in the years after with the ways they were forced to (for example) decommission nuclear weapons unilaterally in return for aid. And, as Putin says, 'even this was not enough for the West' as they then funded seperatists in Chechnya, Georgia and other areas. The West, largely the US, has interfered in Russian domestic matters consistently while at the very same time castigating Russia for doing the same (e.g. Syria).

- Without doubt, and again not trying to excuse anyone, Russians are endemically paranoid - and have been way before the WWII (or the Great Patriotic War as they call it) and are bathed in the belief that the actions of their fathers (and let's not forget without their laying down 35 million lives it is pretty clear the Second World War would not have ended when it did - at least) should not go to waste. Churchill famously described Russia as a riddle inside a mystery inside an enigma (or something maybe not in that order) and the West has repeatedly failed to see this over the past thirty years, consitently failed to take the opportunity to calm the situation and understand it from the other side.

- The West has systemically tried to undermine Russia since the Berlin Wall dissolved. Of course, in later years, Russia has reacted to this (Salisbury poisionings, election interfering etc) with clear hostility but don't forget, it's not too long since British spies were caught laying cameras outside influential locations in Moscow.

- There is a unique moment here for Putin to act. America is weak, the world is still reeling from the pandemic, Germany is in political transition, the US and the UK have (let's keep it polite) leaders that will not be remembered as the greatest to serve their country. And alongside this, Russia has been told to step back on watch the US try to control the Middle East (Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan) among other activities. If you are interested in American foreign policy look up a concept called 'manifest destiny' - Russians reject the American belief that they have the right to go imposing their views on other people in their countries - even President Xi of China said the same thing the other day. Now when Russia says they want to 'integrate' Ukraine back under their control (again, let's not forget that Ukraine has declared intent to join NATO, to have NATO military right up against Russian borders - for a country that remembers being invaded in 1941, like it or not, this is just not acceptable so Russia sees this as the best way to prevent that) there was no reasonable way to look at that (note: in 2014 the referendum in Donbass and Lugansk clearly voted to be part of Russia. Yes, you can question the result but it was a bit more than 52%, if I may). BTW - there are already seven states reintegrating back into a sort of CIS style trading block, including some of the 'stans, Belarus and Armenia. This is not just about reinventing the Soviet Union.

So, what is happening is horrific, it's undefendable as an action but it is also possible to take a moment to understand why it was done and what the rational is behind it.

Final point - it would help a LOT if someone could get Liz Truss to read this post as her references and statements are so incorrect in their frames of history that they are insulting and completely unhelpful. That, above all, is my biggest fear - not Putin (who let's not forget has been in power since before Boris even got into politics in any form) but that the, frankly, amateurs on this side of the fence simply don't know what they are dealiing with. We desperately need a Merkel, even a Thatcher, who can handle this in the way that is needed, not some of the faux Churchillian bombast seen from too many (not just UK) leaders.

Hope that helps, as I say I'm not doing debate on it - if you disagree please feel free to do so but, with all respect, I have friends and family to be looking out for at this time so please excuse me if this doesn't answer all the points.

BTW - for anyone reading this who is Ukranian, my heart goes out to what your country is being put through. My prayers are that this can be resolved quickly and without more bloodshed.

But, and be sure, this is the single biggest threat to all our lives since at least WWII (may even including, given we didn't have nuclear bombs then). This only takes one person to misunderstand one signal, one command, one movement and we are all toast. Very, very worrying.

Interesting post and a few points i would disagree with but I'll go for the top pick

Putin is not a despot 

I'd say he's having a good go, Vladimir himself might be disappointed because  it's been a pretty solid effort in the past few years.

 

 

 

[Alph]

26 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

Thank goodness it was only a few word. ?

Well constructed and informative post however, I don’t quite understand two points you have made:

1) Why is it relevant that 7 other states have integrated back into the CIS trading block? If Ukraine had chosen to do so then there wouldn’t really being an issue but they haven’t 

2) The two areas you have quoted may well have voted to rejoin Russia but how does that justify the full invasion of Ukraine?

I think in Putins mind that the invasion of Ukraine is about 2 things he's repeatedly mentioned. To force/convince/control the Ukranian decision to never join NATO

To "free" Donetsk and Luhansk. 

I'm not saying that I agree with it or that it's logical to me. But I'm not an ex KGB officer humiliated by the fall of the Soviet Union. 

Edited February 27, 2022 by Alpha

[Tamworthram]

44 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Brilliant post. 

Spent days trying to convince people in real life that Putin is not evil. That it's possible to disagree with his actions but understand his thought process. 

Personally I have a strong dislike of the way USA conducts itself. More so than Russia. But anyway, whatever. 

 

And, with regard to the US, the big problem is that they are far too powerful, militarily and economically, for any other nation or group of nations to take them on. Can you imagine trying to impose sanctions on the US or exclude them from SWIFT? 

[Alph]

@AndyinLiverpool

"I have nothing against Russian nationalists, or a great Russia," said Dmitry, as we sped through the dark Mariupol night in a pickup truck, a machine gunner positioned in the back. "But Putin's not even a Russian. Putin's a Jew."

Dmitry – which he said is not his real name – is a native of east Ukraine and a member of the Azov battalion, a volunteer grouping that has been doing much of the frontline fighting in Ukraine's war with pro-Russia separatists. The Azov, one of many volunteer brigades to fight alongside the Ukrainian army in the east of the country, has developed a reputation for fearlessness in battle.

But there is an increasing worry that while the Azov and other volunteer battalions might be Ukraine's most potent and reliable force on the battlefield against the separatists, they also pose the most serious threat to the Ukrainian government, and perhaps even the state, when the conflict in the east is over. The Azov causes particular concern due to the far right, even neo-Nazi, leanings of many of its members.

 

(That's part of the Neo-Nazi thing that Putin speaks of. What he isn't mentioning is that this group was a future problem to Ukraine more than likely. Just thought I'd give the Putin comments some reasoning.)

[YouRams]

59 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

I'm not going to get dragged into too much of this because I have family directly involved but I thought I would offer a few words that might help some understand the perspective from the other side.

- Putin is not a despot, he is not in this for personal gain or infamy. He rationally believes that Ukraine was ripped away from Russia at the break up of the Soviet Union. Kiev is the historic founding of the Russian people, Russians view Ukraine as their cousins in much the same way that Scots and Irish do - they are Slavs by 'tribe' in the same way that Scots are Celts. BTW - I do recognize that Ukraine is a divided country itself and many Catholic Ukrainians (in the West of the country) would not share this view. Ukraine has been independent since 1991 but this is not a country with thousands of years of independence, for most of it's history it has been a part of Russia, Austro-Hungary or Poland. Again, I repeat, this does not entitle invasion but Putin is merely of the belief he needs to reset things to what they were.

- Consequently, Putin is repeatedly saying that what he is doing is for Mother Russia. I don't say I agree with it, but it's not as simple as the 'evil regime' some in the West are trying to put on him. Back in Russia he is very popular and has done (without doubt) a huge amount to lift up the standard of living of nearly all Russians. Moscow, and many other cities, are great places to live and the support networks that most Russians enjoy put ours to shame (schools, local councils, healthcare etc).

- This goes back to the breakup of the Berlin Wall, at the very latest. At that time the Soviet Union was dissolved, and the Russians were largely humilated in the years after with the ways they were forced to (for example) decommission nuclear weapons unilaterally in return for aid. And, as Putin says, 'even this was not enough for the West' as they then funded seperatists in Chechnya, Georgia and other areas. The West, largely the US, has interfered in Russian domestic matters consistently while at the very same time castigating Russia for doing the same (e.g. Syria).

- Without doubt, and again not trying to excuse anyone, Russians are endemically paranoid - and have been way before the WWII (or the Great Patriotic War as they call it) and are bathed in the belief that the actions of their fathers (and let's not forget without their laying down 35 million lives it is pretty clear the Second World War would not have ended when it did - at least) should not go to waste. Churchill famously described Russia as a riddle inside a mystery inside an enigma (or something maybe not in that order) and the West has repeatedly failed to see this over the past thirty years, consitently failed to take the opportunity to calm the situation and understand it from the other side.

- The West has systemically tried to undermine Russia since the Berlin Wall dissolved. Of course, in later years, Russia has reacted to this (Salisbury poisionings, election interfering etc) with clear hostility but don't forget, it's not too long since British spies were caught laying cameras outside influential locations in Moscow.

- There is a unique moment here for Putin to act. America is weak, the world is still reeling from the pandemic, Germany is in political transition, the US and the UK have (let's keep it polite) leaders that will not be remembered as the greatest to serve their country. And alongside this, Russia has been told to step back on watch the US try to control the Middle East (Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan) among other activities. If you are interested in American foreign policy look up a concept called 'manifest destiny' - Russians reject the American belief that they have the right to go imposing their views on other people in their countries - even President Xi of China said the same thing the other day. Now when Russia says they want to 'integrate' Ukraine back under their control (again, let's not forget that Ukraine has declared intent to join NATO, to have NATO military right up against Russian borders - for a country that remembers being invaded in 1941, like it or not, this is just not acceptable so Russia sees this as the best way to prevent that) there was no reasonable way to look at that (note: in 2014 the referendum in Donbass and Lugansk clearly voted to be part of Russia. Yes, you can question the result but it was a bit more than 52%, if I may). BTW - there are already seven states reintegrating back into a sort of CIS style trading block, including some of the 'stans, Belarus and Armenia. This is not just about reinventing the Soviet Union.

So, what is happening is horrific, it's undefendable as an action but it is also possible to take a moment to understand why it was done and what the rational is behind it.

Final point - it would help a LOT if someone could get Liz Truss to read this post as her references and statements are so incorrect in their frames of history that they are insulting and completely unhelpful. That, above all, is my biggest fear - not Putin (who let's not forget has been in power since before Boris even got into politics in any form) but that the, frankly, amateurs on this side of the fence simply don't know what they are dealiing with. We desperately need a Merkel, even a Thatcher, who can handle this in the way that is needed, not some of the faux Churchillian bombast seen from too many (not just UK) leaders.

Hope that helps, as I say I'm not doing debate on it - if you disagree please feel free to do so but, with all respect, I have friends and family to be looking out for at this time so please excuse me if this doesn't answer all the points.

BTW - for anyone reading this who is Ukranian, my heart goes out to what your country is being put through. My prayers are that this can be resolved quickly and without more bloodshed.

But, and be sure, this is the single biggest threat to all our lives since at least WWII (may even including, given we didn't have nuclear bombs then). This only takes one person to misunderstand one signal, one command, one movement and we are all toast. Very, very worrying.

Just saw a news interview CNBC from 4 months ago where the reporter asks Putin about moving assets away from the US Dollar to diversify and to stop sanctions having "less of a bite" Since then US and NATO have intensified "training" on Russia's boarder, aint painted Putin out to be Hitler. History repeating itself Gaddafi wanted an independent African currency and look what happened to him. I dont trust a thing thats put out in our mainstream news US and our government are corrupt to the core, as you say horrific what is happening to the Ukrainians but keep poking at Russia and trying to cripple their economy i dont know what the world expects. 

[Alph]

4 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

And, with regard to the US, the big problem is that they are far too powerful, militarily and economically, for any other nation or group of nations to take them on. Can you imagine trying to impose sanctions on the US or exclude them from SWIFT? 

I wish I could. 

[RoyMac5]

12 minutes ago, YouRams said:

I dont trust a thing thats put out in our mainstream news US and our government are corrupt to the core, as you say horrific what is happening to the Ukrainians but keep poking at Russia and trying to cripple their economy i dont know what the world expects. 

This.