The Ukraine War

[Alph]

10 minutes ago, cstand said:

The EU expanding its empire eastwards is to blame for this conflict it has given Putin every excuse to invade the Ukraine stop trying to blame Boris, Truss, or Brexit.

https://www.euronews.com/2022/02/27/ukraine-is-one-of-us-and-we-want-them-in-eu-ursula-von-der-leyen-tells-euronews

I've not tried to blame any of those things. 

Spent half the thread pointing out the aggression of the West. 

Just don't agree with the invasion and think Truss is adding fuel every time she opens her mouth

Edited February 28, 2022 by Alpha

[sage]

41 minutes ago, cstand said:

The reason for war in the Ukraine is the expanding empire of the EU eastward to the Russian border. 

Putin will love these comments from Ursula it will give him every justification to escalate the conflict.
 

https://www.euronews.com/2022/02/27/ukraine-is-one-of-us-and-we-want-them-in-eu-ursula-von-der-leyen-tells-euronews

 

So...completely dodging the question then. You are Boris and i claim my 5 roubles

[Alph]

In a statement released on Saturday, the Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) blamed actions by the US and NATO for having helped to spark the Russian invasion of Ukraine, sparking condemnation from other Democrats.

“DSA reaffirms our call for the US to withdraw from NATO and to end the imperialist expansionism that set the stage for this conflict,” the group said in a press release.

“While the failures of neoliberal order are clear to everyone, the ruling class is trying to build a new world, through a dystopic transition grounded in militarism, imperialism, and war. Socialists have a duty to build an alternative,” DSA added, ending their statement by declaring “no war but class war.”

Condemning “Russia’s invasion of Ukraine” and calling for “immediate diplomacy and de-escalation to resolve this crisis,” DSA warned the working classes “will undoubtedly bear the brunt of this war.”

[cstand]

15 minutes ago, sage said:

So...completely dodging the question then. You are Boris and i claim my 5 roubles

The last time I looked at the thread title it’s about the Ukraine War nothing to do with Brexit.

If you want a discussion about Brexit I suggest you ask the mods to open a new thread.

Unfortunately some people will never come to terms with the fact the EU empire expanding eastwards has given Putin the excuse to invade the Ukraine.

Not matter how much you find this unpalatable it’s an undeniable fact made worse because they was warned in 2014 but they completely ignored this advice.

 

Edited February 28, 2022 by cstand

[BaaLocks]

31 minutes ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

One of the ways this has hugely backfired for Putin is the way it has United "the west".

Had he just annexed the two breakaway provinces, there'd have been grumbling in the EU and elsewhere, calls for sanctions, nothing really happening and he'd have continued his subtle destabilisation agenda.

Going big, he's had a reaction of solidity not crumbling.

The current war is not only a mistake by Putin, it's also forcing Europe to consider what it actually believes - independent democracies should be defended from aggression, or an acceptance that parts of the world exist as buffer states or puppets in a larger power's sphere of influence.

Both are world views that i can understand, but picking and choosing is a bit hypocritical.

There's also, what do the people of Ukraine want? It seems they have rejected the Russian sphere several times. Should they be forced to accept it under the barrel of a gun because of Putin's paranoia about democracy, liberalism and threats to his power. (And the nuance between threats to Putin's regime, and threats to Russia).

I do find all of this very sad, because I do regard Russia as one of the world's great nations and an endlessly fascinating country. But it's leadership have forced confrontation and it's a confrontation I have zero doubts about I'm afraid. 

• It was never really about Donbass and Lugansk but I agree that might end up being the compromise that sorts this out. Putin accepts those two regions (maybe everything east of the Dneiper) as semi-autonomous republics, puts in some puppet and everyone breathes easy. It's brinkmanship on every level - probably similar to the sort that is going on between the EFL and DCFC as we speak as well. Put the worst scenario on the table and suddenly everything else seems palatable.
• Not sure he has gone big, shelling has been limited, civilian casualties have been limited. If he really wanted to take a country the size of France in 48 hours, as some suggest, it would have required a lot more 'shock and awe' than we have seen. Everyone knows that if Russia wanted it then it could smash Ukraine into the dirt (without needing nukes) - i am not saying they are showing pity in any way but this is a chess game, each move is very carefully thought through. Putin is not an idiot, not a madman, not a Soviet warlord craving his legacy. While many want to position him as such analysis of his behaviours do not align to that suggestion.
• Independent democracies is an interesting one, and you are right it is mired with hypocrisy. Catalonia wanted independence, was put down, but no sanctions applied to Spain, Scotland will be there in a few years, FYRs etc. No right answer, no suggestion there is any correlation, just agreeing it depends on where you view it from what your opinion is.
• There is no 'people of Ukraine' view. Those in the East are fervently pro-Russia, those in the west are pro-European. i nthe East they are industrialists, orthodox, generally older, Russian speaking. In the West agricultaralists, Ukranian speaking, Catholic, generally younger.

[sage]

6 minutes ago, cstand said:

The last time I looked at the thread title it’s about the Ukraine War nothing to do with Brexit.

If you want a discussion about Brexit I suggest you ask the mods to open a new thread.

Unfortunately some people will never come to terms with the fact the EU empire expanding eastwards has given Putin the excuse to invade the Ukraine.

Not matter how much you find this unpalatable it’s an undeniable fact made worse because they was warned in 2014 but they completely ignored this advice.

 

Fact/opinion 

[BaaLocks]

3 minutes ago, cstand said:

The last time I looked at the thread title it’s about the Ukraine War nothing to do with Brexit.

If you want a discussion about Brexit I suggest you ask the mods to open a new thread.

Unfortunately some people will never come terms with the fact the EU empire expanding eastwards has given Putin the excuse to invade the Ukraine.

Not matter how much you find this unpalatable it’s an undeniable fact made worse because they was warned in 2014 but they completely ignored this advice.

 

Brexit has been a contributing factor, not to suggest it was good, bad or otherwise but the with-held Russia Report does appear to suggest interference in the process by Russia. They did this to destabilise and weaken the UK, placing them in a compromised position to resist current events. Liz Truss pictured at 'ladies night' with Theresa May and the wife of a Russian oligarch with direct links to Putin, they took their 30 pieces of silver and are now challenged in how they can react (note the ridiculous first level of sanctions). The pandemic accelerated the weakening of all Western powers, including the US, and the timing has been set for Putin to act in a way that probably even he couldn't have imagined.

i agree with your point on the West being warned and choosing to ignore the warnings. Again, Putin's length of time in role has allowed him to maneouvre his pieces with a far more long term view than most Western powers.

[cstand]

5 minutes ago, sage said:

Fact/opinion 

Fact/denial

[cstand]

28 minutes ago, sage said:

So...completely dodging the question then. You are Boris and i claim my 5 roubles

Think your judgment in wanting to own roubles is misguided 

[sage]

13 minutes ago, cstand said:

Think your judgment in wanting to own roubles is misguided 

I've know you were Boris for a while. I claimed them on Feb 9th, ?

[Alph]

Chap on BBC R2 defending Truss saying she'd support British people going to fight in Ukraine. 

He's set up a site for you to join

How very responsible of Truss. 

Go guys, go collect your AK47 and join a foreign speaking force in a foreign land with zero guarantee of support or protection. 

Might fall in with the Azov Battalion. That'll be nice. 

Ridiculous. The best way for people to help Ukraine is not to go and take a physical fight to Russian forces

[i-Ram]

1 hour ago, sage said:

Did Russia influence Brexit?

Is it to their advantage?

I had an email from sergei@russiaFSB.ru saying he would put polonium on my knob if I didn’t vote leave.

[Wolfie]

2 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Chap on BBC R2 defending Truss saying she'd support British people going to fight in Ukraine. 

He's set up a site for you to join

How very responsible of Truss. 

Go guys, go collect your AK47 and join a foreign speaking force in a foreign land with zero guarantee of support or protection. 

Might fall in with the Azov Battalion. That'll be nice. 

Ridiculous. The best way for people to help Ukraine is not to go and take a physical fight to Russian forces

From Beeb:

Russia blames Liz Truss for nuclear 'special alert'

Earlier, UK Defence Secretary Ben Wallace downplayed the nuclear "special alert" announced by Vladimir Putin, suggesting that the Russian president wanted to distract people from his forces' slower-than-expected progress in the invasion.

Wallace told the BBC: "We will not do anything to escalate in that area, we will not do anything to feed any miscalculation - we take it very, very seriously. But at the moment this is a battle of rhetoric that President Putin is deploying."

Now, the Kremlin has suggested comments from Foreign Secretary Liz Truss were the reason that Russia put its nuclear forces on heightened alert, according to the Russian news agency Interfax.

"There had been statements by various representatives at various levels about possible conflict situations and even collisions and clashes between Nato and the Russian Federation," said Dmitry Peskov, spokesman for Vladimir Putin.

"We consider such statements absolutely unacceptable. I will not name the authors of these statements, although it was the British foreign secretary."

It's not clear which comments by Truss the Russian government objects to, although on Sunday she said she said she would support individuals from the UK joining an international force to fight for Ukraine.

 

The woman is so far out of her depth it's ridiculous (and scary)

 

[sage]

6 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

I had an email from sergei@russiaFSB.ru saying he would put polonium on my knob if I didn’t vote leave.

I would have thought you'd have welcomed any addition to your knob

[Ramarena]

After spending so much money and time building Russia as a more “western friendly” nation and covertly trying to destabilise the US, UK and by proxy Europe.

I’m absolutely amazed that Putin has thrown all that away in four days and chosen this hill to die on!

After the suffering of Ukrainians the average Russian in the street will be the next to suffer.

I see the cultural reasonings and western imperialistic hypocrisy………..however what’s not been mentioned is that Ukraine holds the second largest gas reserves in Europe, I’m sure securing that away from Europe was a significant factor.

So he now has pushed envelope and this morning has Ukraine asking for immediate EU membership. The exact opposite of what he wanted and this has huge ramifications if granted.

I suppose the upside is then can just add “raine” to all the UK’s old stuff for a quick turnaround!

 

[cstand]

10 minutes ago, sage said:

I've know you were Boris for a while. I claimed them on Feb 9th, ?

 I am very sorry to disappoint you again but the only political party I am affiliated to is the Labour Party with my union subscription. 
 

[BaaLocks]

3 minutes ago, Wolfie said:

The woman is so far out of her depth it's ridiculous (and scary)

Multiple 'likes' to that

[Eddie]

59 minutes ago, sage said:

So...completely dodging the question then. You are Boris and i claim my 5 roubles

I'm utterly amazed that there are people on here supporting, tacitly approving or claiming to justify Putin's action.

Go back 40 years, and it was claimed that the left supported Russia. How times change.

[TuffLuff]

I know this will split opinions and I don’t intend to aggravate but I think it’s a half decent starting place for my point.

so somewhat 12 years ago I did a module on world politics and basically I learnt two important thing. 1) the greatest invention in the modern em works is the piston, although it was in China before 1000AD 2) We live in a time where the world power is moving from the west back to the east (the industrial revolution has been the only times that it ever changed).

So a lot of the modern wars have kinda been about that, the western countries trying to maintain power and influence over the east and the somewhat failing. Russia ends up oddly having a foot in both camps on this, so it’s most likely seeing the west getting weaker. Has Russia got involved in the west through elections and referendums? It’s up for debate but they certainly have benefitted as they now look a stronger than those western countries who have suffered from weak leadership and civil chaos. Look at the UK and the US, were Trump or Johnson/May able to achieve anything? Did/do they even want to? The UK especially have spent years where we couldn’t look past our own borders, that even bleed into our response to Covid. 

The world has moved on from the Iron Curtain days, as @RadioactiveWaste said Putin may have had a massive misstep here that he’s actually brought the west closer together rather than letting chaos breed. He’s even faced backlash in his own country so it’s actually brought chaos closer to him.

[Alph]

7 minutes ago, Wolfie said:

From Beeb:

Russia blames Liz Truss for nuclear 'special alert'

Earlier, UK Defence Secretary Ben Wallace downplayed the nuclear "special alert" announced by Vladimir Putin, suggesting that the Russian president wanted to distract people from his forces' slower-than-expected progress in the invasion.

Wallace told the BBC: "We will not do anything to escalate in that area, we will not do anything to feed any miscalculation - we take it very, very seriously. But at the moment this is a battle of rhetoric that President Putin is deploying."

Now, the Kremlin has suggested comments from Foreign Secretary Liz Truss were the reason that Russia put its nuclear forces on heightened alert, according to the Russian news agency Interfax.

"There had been statements by various representatives at various levels about possible conflict situations and even collisions and clashes between Nato and the Russian Federation," said Dmitry Peskov, spokesman for Vladimir Putin.

"We consider such statements absolutely unacceptable. I will not name the authors of these statements, although it was the British foreign secretary."

It's not clear which comments by Truss the Russian government objects to, although on Sunday she said she said she would support individuals from the UK joining an international force to fight for Ukraine.

 

The woman is so far out of her depth it's ridiculous (and scary)

 

I'm not counting but I'm fairly sure she's been quoted in Russian news stories more than any of the NATO leaders. She's doing wonders to keep the war going. 

Anyway, turning R2 off now because it's clear they want to paint Putin as Hitler. 

To not recognise what he wants and what Russian concerns are is part of why we are here. It's us accusing Russia of being brainwashed victims of propaganda and yet here we have people claiming that this is the first step in a European invasion. 

I think if you haven't taken the time to listen to Putin then you have no right to say what he wants. 

If you listen and still think he's a maniac, that's a shame but fair enough. But he might make you feel like doing some online digging. 

And after that you can STILL condemn his invasion AND understand him.