Abu Dhabi Ram Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 8 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said: I'm reluctant to call any club 'cheats' without official confirmation on how they cheated. So far no charge for Villa and no punishment for their heavy spending. But is that because they got promoted? Our position would be very different if we had beaten them in the final. Darn, this is what Boro are doing to us, leave it out, we need to take the moral high ground on this otherwise it will never end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanjwitham Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 2 minutes ago, Abu Dhabi Ram said: But is that because they got promoted? Our position would be very different if we had beaten them in the final. Darn, this is what Boro are doing to us, leave it out, we need to take the moral high ground on this otherwise it will never end. They overspent by ~£70m in their promotion season, but managed to convince the EFL that enough of it was “exceptional items”, and thus could be excluded from FFP, to squeeze in under the threshold. I have no idea how plausible those exclusions are. RoyMac5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 8 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said: They overspent by ~£70m in their promotion season, but managed to convince the EFL that enough of it was “exceptional items”, and thus could be excluded from FFP, to squeeze in under the threshold. I have no idea how plausible those exclusions are. Harvey's final act as EFL Cheif Executive. In his defence, he did what he could to ensure as few clubs as possible failed P&S... Willingly working with other clubs. RoyMac5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkFruitsRam7 Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said: Someone can use this as a starting point if they want... Timeline of events, beginning with the introduction of financial regulation in the Championship. 1. 2012 - FFP Rules (monitored over 1 season) implemented 2. 24/05/14 - Derby lose to FFP cheats QPR in the Playoff Final 3. November 2014 – P&S rules (monitored over 3 seasons) voted in to replace FFP rules for the 16/17 season onwards. 4. Summer 2015 – Derby change amortisation policy for the 15/16 season (after discussing the change with the auditors) 5. 07/04/17 – 15/16 accounts are submitted to Companies House 6. 06/04/18 – 16/17 accounts are submitted to Companies House 7. Spring 2018 –2016-18 P&S information submitted to EFL (within limits) 8. 12/04/18 – Revised 2016-18 P&S information submitted to EFL due to differences between FFP and P&S calculations (£5m over the limit) 9. 04/05/18 – DCFC placed under embargo 10. May 2018 – Stadium valued at £81.1m (profits basis) and £74.4m (DRC basis) by JLL 11. June 2018 – Discussions with EFL to agree on stadium sale and how much to be included in the accounts) 12. 28/06/18 – Stadium sold for £81m. Revised 2016-18 P&S information submitted to EFL (within limits) 13. 03/07/18 – Embargo lifted 14. 04/07/18 – EFL confirmation that DCFC met their P&S requirements for the 3 year period to 2018. 15. 15/02/19 – EFL Executive confirmation that £81.1m was fair value for the stadium. 16. 06/03/19 – placed under embargo for late submission of P&S statements 17. 29/03/19 – 2019 P&S statements submitted to EFL (within limits) and embargo lifted. New embargo placed on club due to being close to the limit. 18. 05/04/19 – 17/18 accounts are submitted to Companies House 19. April 2019 - MFC queried, “in forceful terms”, the legitimacy of such a sale and leaseback arrangement 20. 15/04/19 – EFL query why amortization fluctuates so much between seasons. 21. 13/05/19 – Meeting between DCFC and EFL to discuss amortization, EFL stated “it is an acceptable accounting policy” with the EFL stating large future impairments are a risk for the club to take on 22. 24/05/19 – MFC submitted a claim against Derby, stating we cheated P&S by selling the stadium for too much and it wasn’t arms length. 23. 09/07/19 – MFC claim PPS should have been sold at a fair value of £22.8m 24. 11/07/19 – Embargo lifted 25. 30/07/19 – MFC officially threatened the EFL and DCFC with proceedings unless the EFL initiated disciplinary action against DCFC 26. 06/09/19 – MFC servered notice of arbitration to get profits from stadium sales excluded from P&S calculations (including those in the past) 27. 02/12/19 – EFL hired expert valued stadium at £42-50m. Expert had not visited the stadium but deemed the facilities to be “bog standard” and drew comparisons to Morecombe’s 6476 stadium with 3 terraced stands. 28. 16/01/20 – Derby charged with selling the stadium above it’s true value and for using improper amortization policy, resulting in exceeding P&S limits in the 3 years to 2018 29. Early 2020 – Derby placed under embargo 30. 25/08/20 – DC cleared of overvaluing the stadium, found guilty for 1 of 5 particulars relating to the amortisation policy (not worded it adequately in the accounts), but insisted the policy was compliant with FRS102. DC panel consisted of accountants 31. 07/09/20 – EFL appealed against the DC decision 32. 07/09/20 – Boro started an arbitration against Derby and the EFL, in particular regarding the stadium valuation which allowed us to sign Waghorn 33. 22/10/20 – Boro’s application rejected 34. 30/11/20 – De novo hearing held and dismissed (EFL wanting draft 18/19 accounts submitted after DC decision to be considered) 35. 15/12/20 – EFL application for new evidence to be considered (18/19 draft accounts), dismissed 22/01/21 36. July 2021 – LAP decision resulting in a restatement of 15/16 accounts onwards with a compliant amortization policy and a £100k fine. LAP did not consist of any accountants. 37. 22/09/21 – Derby enter administration 38. 16/11/21 – Administrators agree 9-point deduction due to EFL’s claim of a P&S overspend, a result of the EFL rejecting our new amortisation policy Other noteworthy events: EFL stated as wanting the points deduction against Derby to be applied in 20/21 to cause maximum punishment (relegation) when the season had already concluded. Embargoes: 04/05/18-03/07/18, 06/03/19-11/07/19, early 2020-present Nice work. Though I think it might be worth cutting it down a bit, removing acronyms and generally making it more accessible to the average outsider if we want to argue our case effectively. Edited January 18, 2022 by DarkFruitsRam7 Indy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigerTedd Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said: Someone can use this as a starting point if they want... Timeline of events, beginning with the introduction of financial regulation in the Championship. 1. 2012 - FFP Rules (monitored over 1 season) implemented 2. 24/05/14 - Derby lose to FFP cheats QPR in the Playoff Final 3. November 2014 – P&S rules (monitored over 3 seasons) voted in to replace FFP rules for the 16/17 season onwards. 4. Summer 2015 – Derby change amortisation policy for the 15/16 season (after discussing the change with the auditors) 5. 07/04/17 – 15/16 accounts are submitted to Companies House 6. 06/04/18 – 16/17 accounts are submitted to Companies House 7. Spring 2018 –2016-18 P&S information submitted to EFL (within limits) 8. 12/04/18 – Revised 2016-18 P&S information submitted to EFL due to differences between FFP and P&S calculations (£5m over the limit) 9. 04/05/18 – DCFC placed under embargo 10. May 2018 – Stadium valued at £81.1m (profits basis) and £74.4m (DRC basis) by JLL 11. June 2018 – Discussions with EFL to agree on stadium sale and how much to be included in the accounts) 12. 28/06/18 – Stadium sold for £81m. Revised 2016-18 P&S information submitted to EFL (within limits) 13. 03/07/18 – Embargo lifted 14. 04/07/18 – EFL confirmation that DCFC met their P&S requirements for the 3 year period to 2018. 15. 15/02/19 – EFL Executive confirmation that £81.1m was fair value for the stadium. 16. 06/03/19 – placed under embargo for late submission of P&S statements 17. 29/03/19 – 2019 P&S statements submitted to EFL (within limits) and embargo lifted. New embargo placed on club due to being close to the limit. 18. 05/04/19 – 17/18 accounts are submitted to Companies House 19. April 2019 - MFC queried, “in forceful terms”, the legitimacy of such a sale and leaseback arrangement 20. 15/04/19 – EFL query why amortization fluctuates so much between seasons. 21. 13/05/19 – Meeting between DCFC and EFL to discuss amortization, EFL stated “it is an acceptable accounting policy” with the EFL stating large future impairments are a risk for the club to take on 22. 24/05/19 – MFC submitted a claim against Derby, stating we cheated P&S by selling the stadium for too much and it wasn’t arms length. 23. 09/07/19 – MFC claim PPS should have been sold at a fair value of £22.8m 24. 11/07/19 – Embargo lifted 25. 30/07/19 – MFC officially threatened the EFL and DCFC with proceedings unless the EFL initiated disciplinary action against DCFC 26. 06/09/19 – MFC servered notice of arbitration to get profits from stadium sales excluded from P&S calculations (including those in the past) 27. 02/12/19 – EFL hired expert valued stadium at £42-50m. Expert had not visited the stadium but deemed the facilities to be “bog standard” and drew comparisons to Morecombe’s 6476 stadium with 3 terraced stands. 28. 16/01/20 – Derby charged with selling the stadium above it’s true value and for using improper amortization policy, resulting in exceeding P&S limits in the 3 years to 2018 29. Early 2020 – Derby placed under embargo 30. 25/08/20 – DC cleared of overvaluing the stadium, found guilty for 1 of 5 particulars relating to the amortisation policy (not worded it adequately in the accounts), but insisted the policy was compliant with FRS102. DC panel consisted of accountants 31. 07/09/20 – EFL appealed against the DC decision 32. 07/09/20 – Boro started an arbitration against Derby and the EFL, in particular regarding the stadium valuation which allowed us to sign Waghorn 33. 22/10/20 – Boro’s application rejected 34. 30/11/20 – De novo hearing held and dismissed (EFL wanting draft 18/19 accounts submitted after DC decision to be considered) 35. 15/12/20 – EFL application for new evidence to be considered (18/19 draft accounts), dismissed 22/01/21 36. July 2021 – LAP decision resulting in a restatement of 15/16 accounts onwards with a compliant amortization policy and a £100k fine. LAP did not consist of any accountants. 37. 22/09/21 – Derby enter administration 38. 16/11/21 – Administrators agree 9-point deduction due to EFL’s claim of a P&S overspend, a result of the EFL rejecting our new amortisation policy Other noteworthy events: EFL stated as wanting the points deduction against Derby to be applied in 20/21 to cause maximum punishment (relegation) when the season had already concluded. Embargoes: 04/05/18-03/07/18, 06/03/19-11/07/19, early 2020-present Brilliant. I’d add in that QPR were eventually punished to the tune of some paltry fine and not even a points deduction. I’d expect Villa to get an immediate 9pt deduction if they ever get relegated now (but they’ll probably just get a meaningless fine like QPR did). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 27 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said: Nice work. Though I think it might be worth cutting it down a bit, removing acronyms and generally making it more accessible to the average outsider if we want to argue our case effectively. Thanks for volunteering to take over from here ? Ellafella, RoyMac5, i-Ram and 3 others 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkFruitsRam7 Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 16 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said: Thanks for volunteering to take over from here ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 On 18/01/2022 at 17:35, Ghost of Clough said: Someone can use this as a starting point if they want... Timeline of events, beginning with the introduction of financial regulation in the Championship. 1. 2012 - FFP Rules (monitored over 1 season) implemented 2. 24/05/14 - Derby lose to FFP cheats QPR in the Playoff Final 3. November 2014 – P&S rules (monitored over 3 seasons) voted in to replace FFP rules for the 16/17 season onwards. 4. Summer 2015 – Derby change amortisation policy for the 15/16 season (after discussing the change with the auditors) 5. 07/04/17 – 15/16 accounts are submitted to Companies House 6. 06/04/18 – 16/17 accounts are submitted to Companies House 7. Spring 2018 –2016-18 P&S information submitted to EFL (within limits) 8. 12/04/18 – Revised 2016-18 P&S information submitted to EFL due to differences between FFP and P&S calculations (£5m over the limit) 9. 04/05/18 – DCFC placed under embargo 10. May 2018 – Stadium valued at £81.1m (profits basis) and £74.4m (DRC basis) by JLL 11. June 2018 – Discussions with EFL to agree on stadium sale and how much to be included in the accounts) 12. 28/06/18 – Stadium sold for £81m. Revised 2016-18 P&S information submitted to EFL (within limits) 13. 03/07/18 – Embargo lifted 14. 04/07/18 – EFL confirmation that DCFC met their P&S requirements for the 3 year period to 2018. 15. 15/02/19 – EFL Executive confirmation that £81.1m was fair value for the stadium. 16. 06/03/19 – placed under embargo for late submission of P&S statements 17. 29/03/19 – 2019 P&S statements submitted to EFL (within limits) and embargo lifted. New embargo placed on club due to being close to the limit. 18. 05/04/19 – 17/18 accounts are submitted to Companies House 19. April 2019 - MFC queried, “in forceful terms”, the legitimacy of such a sale and leaseback arrangement 20. 15/04/19 – EFL query why amortization fluctuates so much between seasons. 21. 13/05/19 – Meeting between DCFC and EFL to discuss amortization, EFL stated “it is an acceptable accounting policy” with the EFL stating large future impairments are a risk for the club to take on 22. 24/05/19 – MFC submitted a claim against Derby, stating we cheated P&S by selling the stadium for too much and it wasn’t arms length. 23. 09/07/19 – MFC claim PPS should have been sold at a fair value of £22.8m 24. 11/07/19 – Embargo lifted 25. 30/07/19 – MFC officially threatened the EFL and DCFC with proceedings unless the EFL initiated disciplinary action against DCFC 26. 06/09/19 – MFC servered notice of arbitration to get profits from stadium sales excluded from P&S calculations (including those in the past) 27. 02/12/19 – EFL hired expert valued stadium at £42-50m. Expert had not visited the stadium but deemed the facilities to be “bog standard” and drew comparisons to Morecombe’s 6476 stadium with 3 terraced stands. 28. 16/01/20 – Derby charged with selling the stadium above it’s true value and for using improper amortization policy, resulting in exceeding P&S limits in the 3 years to 2018 29. Early 2020 – Derby placed under embargo 30. 25/08/20 – DC cleared of overvaluing the stadium, found guilty for 1 of 5 particulars relating to the amortisation policy (not worded it adequately in the accounts), but insisted the policy was compliant with FRS102. DC panel consisted of accountants 31. 07/09/20 – EFL appealed against the DC decision 32. 07/09/20 – Boro started an arbitration against Derby and the EFL, in particular regarding the stadium valuation which allowed us to sign Waghorn 33. 22/10/20 – Boro’s application rejected 34. 30/11/20 – De novo hearing held and dismissed (EFL wanting draft 18/19 accounts submitted after DC decision to be considered) 35. 15/12/20 – EFL application for new evidence to be considered (18/19 draft accounts), dismissed 22/01/21 36. July 2021 – LAP decision resulting in a restatement of 15/16 accounts onwards with a compliant amortization policy and a £100k fine. LAP did not consist of any accountants. 37. 22/09/21 – Derby enter administration 38. 16/11/21 – Administrators agree 9-point deduction due to EFL’s claim of a P&S overspend, a result of the EFL rejecting our new amortisation policy Other noteworthy events: EFL stated as wanting the points deduction against Derby to be applied in 20/21 to cause maximum punishment (relegation) when the season had already concluded. Embargoes: 04/05/18-03/07/18, 06/03/19-11/07/19, early 2020-present @Steve Buckley’s Dog Steve Buckley’s Dog 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RammingStone66 Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 2 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said: @Steve Buckley’s Dog Wish we could get every sport journo in the land to read that timeline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGR Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 Does anyone have a link to hear this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellafella Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 13 hours ago, AGR said: Does anyone have a link to hear this? https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live:bbc_radio_derby dial back to 10:35 AGR 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigerTedd Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 41 minutes ago, Ellafella said: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live:bbc_radio_derby dial back to 10:35 That link just takes you to live radio Derby. Not any particular time or show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellafella Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 10 minutes ago, TigerTedd said: That link just takes you to live radio Derby. Not any particular time or show. Apologies- my bad. Will try again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I know nuffin Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 What's this Nixon thing that the EFL are holding TV money back from us because of an overdue transfer payment. Is this what the house of commons would call pragmatism. SaffyRam 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IslandExile Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 8 minutes ago, I know nuffin said: What's this Nixon thing that the EFL are holding TV money back from us because of an overdue transfer payment. Is this what the house of commons would call pragmatism. It's the EFL's "every effort" to help us out. Similar to the loan we didn't get to help with the pandemic. RadioactiveWaste and May Contain Nuts 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich84 Posted January 21, 2022 Share Posted January 21, 2022 28 minutes ago, IslandExile said: It's the EFL's "every effort" to help us out. Similar to the loan we didn't get to help with the pandemic. Should the withholding of the covid loan be on the timeline? It's another example of how we have been treated differently because of the prolonged time we were in an embargo, for something we pretty much were cleared on. (Treated as guilty until proven innocent....) I know subsequently we are over P&S after restating the accounts, but as has been mentioned before, if there had been earlier discussions on using the amortisation policy we surely would have made different choices in subsequent years to have stayed within the limits.... I also still believe if we hadn't gone into administration we would have appealed and challenged the requirements to retrospectively amend P&S. Not blindly accept a penalty to 'speed up' the sale! RoyMac5, RadioactiveWaste, TigerTedd and 1 other 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadioactiveWaste Posted January 21, 2022 Share Posted January 21, 2022 27 minutes ago, Rich84 said: Should the withholding of the covid loan be on the timeline? It's another example of how we have been treated differently because of the prolonged time we were in an embargo, for something we pretty much were cleared on. (Treated as guilty until proven innocent....) I know subsequently we are over P&S after restating the accounts, but as has been mentioned before, if there had been earlier discussions on using the amortisation policy we surely would have made different choices in subsequent years to have stayed within the limits.... I also still believe if we hadn't gone into administration we would have appealed and challenged the requirements to retrospectively amend P&S. Not blindly accept a penalty to 'speed up' the sale! This is the bit that grinds me about "systemitcly cheating for years" we hear from some corners. Rich84 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistoldPete Posted January 21, 2022 Share Posted January 21, 2022 1 hour ago, I know nuffin said: What's this Nixon thing that the EFL are holding TV money back from us because of an overdue transfer payment. Is this what the house of commons would call pragmatism. A transfer payment? What are they? I’ve forgotten what those are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve How Hard? Posted January 21, 2022 Share Posted January 21, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, PistoldPete said: A transfer payment? What are they? I’ve forgotten what those are. It's what we owe Arsenal, for Charlie George possibly, it seems that long ago since the EFL let us join in any transfer window. Edited January 21, 2022 by Steve How Hard? WharfedaleRam, Wignall12, PistoldPete and 3 others 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted January 23, 2022 Share Posted January 23, 2022 5 minutes ago, Indy said: Out of interest, do you know how many of the 10-12 months not in embargo from the last 48 were actually in a transfer window? Embargo dates were listed in this post: On 18/01/2022 at 17:35, Ghost of Clough said: Embargoes: 04/05/18-03/07/18, 06/03/19-11/07/19, early 2020-present Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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