Should Rooney be doing better under the current circumstances?

[i-Ram]

32 minutes ago, Chester40 said:

Very fair post.

Most people seem to want to thank his loyalty and give him that chance, which is understandable.

But I think it is the biggest season we may ever have and he has done little to suggest he has the tactical skills to get us a Promotion. @LeedsCityRamhas just said 'criticism is opportunistic' but I could argue the reverse. One win against a Bournemouth team who were happy to take chances is being highlighted against a background of something like 4 other wins in over 30 matches.

The reaction to any mild criticism of him is more knee-jerk and angry than those who are saying does he have what it takes to turn it round now/after takeover/next season. 

It's a forum for discussion and I personally am bored to tears of analysis of accounts, FFP etc. There is plenty of fulsome praise of Rooney and even his detractors are careful to give him due respect before asking has he got anything wrong, yet even then there is this mocking 'you only come out when we lose' line, which I am finding increasingly incredibly passive aggressive. 

Yes, yes, but where do you stand on the depreciation rate of Rooney’s office furniture?

[nottingram]

I think it is a very difficult one. Ultimately, at the moment I doubt there is going to be a long queue of managers wanting this job and so Rooney deserves the upmost respect for sticking with us through this, as well as for many other aspects of his role off the field. The way he has conducted himself through interviews, paying for away travel and accommodation, paying for the pre season trip to Surrey etc etc.

I think the players he recruited in January were pretty good on the whole and we’d not have had a sniff of getting Jagielka or Morrison on 4.5k a week without him in the summer.

But I must say I just have a nagging doubt that we should be going into a League 1 campaign with him as manager. All managers are a risk, Rooney feels like a big one. Given my first paragraph especially I wouldn’t want to see us pooping on him by sacking him, but I can’t help think that maybe a bit of a mutual handshake, “thanks for everything and sorry for being an absolute car crash while you were manager” at the end of the season might be the best for all parties. Rooney leaves and would be able to get a job elsewhere no problem and we can do a proper rebuild with a new manager. 

At the end of the day, whether he should be doing better now is immaterial. Hopefully next season will be in completely different circumstances so there isn’t much indication we can gain.

[LeedsCityRam]

38 minutes ago, Chester40 said:

Very fair post.

Most people seem to want to thank his loyalty and give him that chance, which is understandable.

But I think it is the biggest season we may ever have and he has done little to suggest he has the tactical skills to get us a Promotion. @LeedsCityRamhas just said 'criticism is opportunistic' but I could argue the reverse. One win against a Bournemouth team who were happy to take chances is being highlighted against a background of something like 4 other wins in over 30 matches.

The reaction to any mild criticism of him is more knee-jerk and angry than those who are saying does he have what it takes to turn it round now/after takeover/next season. 

It's a forum for discussion and I personally am bored to tears of analysis of accounts, FFP etc. There is plenty of fulsome praise of Rooney and even his detractors are careful to give him due respect before asking has he got anything wrong, yet even then there is this mocking 'you only come out when we lose' line, which I am finding increasingly incredibly passive aggressive. 

Like I said earlier in the thread, debate is of course valid & criticism also. No-one is pretending Rooney is perfect.

I think what his detractors tend to do though is belittle the context of his performance this season. Even the OP says 'ignoring the points deductions & embargoes'...but you can't ignore the embargo. It is an intrinsic part of why the squad is weak & ergo why our expectations should be tapered as such.

The point about 5 wins in 30 odd matches is also misleading & I think we need to separate last season from this season. I was as vocal as any poster on this forum last season about what I perceived to be Rooney's poor management & I was also one of only 7 people in January who voted for him not to be given the manager's position after the impressive run in Dec/Jan. The difference is that he had Waghorn, Wisdom, Clarke, Edmundson, Roberts & Gregory last season (& Bielik until early Feb), we played dreadful football, the young players looked shot & we still lost matches. Very different to the situation this season.

As to your point about whether he has the ability to guide us to promotion, the answer is we have no way of knowing that until we're in that position. He needs a stable, properly resourced club & only then can we make an informed judgement about his ability to rebuild the club.

[Tyler Durden]

There seems to be a disconnect with the results of the polls and opinion elsewhere on the forum. A 2 to 1 majority who have stated that Rooney should not be doing better under the current circumstances, the current circumstances being 4 wins in 21 games.

That implies that no other manager alive could have gained 5 wins from 21 games which is better than the current status quo. It also implies that the people who voted to say that Rooney shouldn't be doing better consider 4 wins out of 21 to be acceptable which if you follow to its logical conclusion by extrapolating this points return then quite simply we have no chance of avoiding relegation.

Or am I taking the title of the poll too literally.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Tyler Durden

[Oldben]

For me the question should be refocused, which quality manager would want to manage the club I'm the current position, with this number of points deducted.

Which manager without quality attacking players and with no possibility of signing quality players to strengthen the team due to efl restrictions, could have achieved more than Rooney.

What would tempt a quality manager into managing Derby this season.

Any manager knowing they could lose their job at Derby at any time due to the clubs debt.

Rooneys rumoured to be of interest to higher teams because of what's he achieved

[Black ('n' White) Sheep]

Stick 21 points on to where we are now and we'd be 19th... which is about where I thought we'd be with the situation we're in and not being able to bring in a striker.

[G STAR RAM]

Before yesterday, we had a run of playing the top 3 teams in the division (top 2 are running away with it) and managed a WDL, this is with a squad made up primarily of journeymen and youngsters.

Our early season 'form' was based around a solid defensive unit. Unfortunately with the situation we now find ourselves in we are going to have to be looking to turn draws into wins and, inevitably, this is going to leave the old guard vulnerable.

In different circumstances we dont lose that game against QPR and we are unbeaten against the top 3.

I don't by any means think WR is puling up trees but under the circumstances he is doing fine. Cant think of too many games this season where we have not been competitive and that is credit to a manager and squad who know that the odds are heavily stacked against us staying in this division.

[Jimbo Ram]

41 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Like I said earlier in the thread, debate is of course valid & criticism also. No-one is pretending Rooney is perfect.

I think what his detractors tend to do though is belittle the context of his performance this season. Even the OP says 'ignoring the points deductions & embargoes'...but you can't ignore the embargo. It is an intrinsic part of why the squad is weak & ergo why our expectations should be tapered as such.

The point about 5 wins in 30 odd matches is also misleading & I think we need to separate last season from this season. I was as vocal as any poster on this forum last season about what I perceived to be Rooney's poor management & I was also one of only 7 people in January who voted for him not to be given the manager's position after the impressive run in Dec/Jan. The difference is that he had Waghorn, Wisdom, Clarke, Edmundson, Roberts & Gregory last season (& Bielik until early Feb), we played dreadful football, the young players looked shot & we still lost matches. Very different to the situation this season.

As to your point about whether he has the ability to guide us to promotion, the answer is we have no way of knowing that until we're in that position. He needs a stable, properly resourced club & only then can we make an informed judgement about his ability to rebuild the club.

So you are saying he should have done a lot better with the players he had last season….agreed……but he can be excused for his poor record this season because of the circumstances ?

[Tamworthram]

37 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

There seems to be a disconnect with the results of the polls and opinion elsewhere on the forum. A 2 to 1 majority who have stated that Rooney should not be doing better under the current circumstances, the current circumstances being 4 wins in 21 games.

That implies that no other manager alive could have gained 5 wins from 21 games which is better than the current status quo. It also implies that the people who voted to say that Rooney shouldn't be doing better consider 4 wins out of 21 to be acceptable which if you follow to its logical conclusion by extrapolating this points return then quite simply we have no chance of avoiding relegation.

Or am I taking the title of the poll too literally.

You are taking the poll far too literally and, IMO, misinterpreting the voting results.

The question wasn’t “is he the best manager in the world”. Of course he isn’t and he would be the first to admit it. But, given the hand he has been dealt, many of us think he is probably doing the best he can.

Equally, none of us are happy with 4 wins out of 21 but, once again, he is severely handicapped by the position he finds himself in.

Finally, your point about extrapolating this point means “we have no chance of avoiding relegation” isn’t a logical conclusion. I’m sure we’re all resigned to the fact that relegation looks “almost” certain but there is a chance however slim that might be and therefore not “no chance”.

[Tyler Durden]

6 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

You are taking the poll far too literally and, IMO, misinterpreting the voting results.

The question wasn’t “is he the best manager in the world”. Of course he isn’t and he would be the first to admit it. But, given the hand he has been dealt, many of us think he is probably doing the best he can.

Equally, none of us are happy with 4 wins out of 21 but, once again, he is severely handicapped by the position he finds himself in.

Finally, your point about extrapolating this point means “we have no chance of avoiding relegation” isn’t a logical conclusion. I’m sure we’re all resigned to the fact that relegation looks “almost” certain but there is a chance however slim that might be and therefore not “no chance”.

I don't agree with your logic. If the majority of people think that 4 wins out of 21 is the BEST Rooney can do then surely that means then the points tally accrued by the end of the season given the BEST expectations will have us playing in League 1 next season?

So if relegation isn't to be a formality Rooney needs to up that win rate which then makes the first premise false?

[Kingpin]

Yes a bit. 

[Van der MoodHoover]

I think we should have been able to turn a few more draws into narrow victories. 

We've played a couple of heroic rearguard actions for 90 mins to gain unlikely draws. 

But when a bit of doughty defending to protect a 1 goal lead has been needed, with maybe a tactical tweak to achieve it, we seem to be found consistently wanting. 

[May Contain Nuts]

2 hours ago, Crewton said:

It's fair to ask why this survey and thread didn't appear after the Bournemouth and Fulham games though, isn't it? 

After those games I said that those were great results but would only really count for anything if we took the confidence gained by them into other fixtures. 

While losing to QPR in itself holds no shame, the last minute nature if it was shattering and it was another game we took the lead in only to throw it away, with the manager doing nothing to stem the tide against us after they'd equalised.

That was followed by an insipid performance against a crap Bristol team so it looks like that momentum / confidence has evaporated already.  

Even if we had won all 3 (including QPR) that wouldn't offset the damage caused by losses to Peterborough, Barnsley & now Bristol City - in those games we don't just miss out on points ourselves we strengthen the position of teams above us.

There's a saying in darts, trebles for show, doubles for dough. 

I think it's reasonable to question how we're able to go from the performance against Bournemouth to the performance against Bristol. Are Buchanan & Baldock (subbed after 22 mins) really that vital to the way we play? The rest of the starting lineup minus a needless change to GK was the same.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Coconut's Beard

[Tamworthram]

19 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

I don't agree with your logic. If the majority of people think that 4 wins out of 21 is the BEST Rooney can do then surely that means then the points tally accrued by the end of the season given the BEST expectations will have us playing in League 1 next season?

So if relegation isn't to be a formality Rooney needs to up that win rate which then makes the first premise false?

Not at all. What if he exceeds our expectations and he/the team manage to do better than any of us expect?

When Ranieri was at Leicester, many Leicester fans may well have thought that to qualify for the Champions League was the best they could have expected. Probably better than most supporters realistic expectations. Does that mean they had no chance of winning the Premier League? Of course not. To reach the first round proper of the FA Cup was probably the beyond what most Buxton fans thought  was possible but did it mean they couldn’t reach the second round? Of course not.

 

[Kingpin]

4 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

What if

Your aunty had a pair of testicles….

[Tyler Durden]

2 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

Not at all. What if he exceeds our expectations and he/the team manage to do better than any of us expect?

When Ranieri was at Leicester, many Leicester fans may well have thought that to qualify for the Champions League was the best they could have expected. Probably better than most supporters realistic expectations. Does that mean they had no chance of winning the Premier League? Of course not. To reach the first round proper of the FA Cup was probably the beyond what most Buxton fans thought  was possible but did it mean they couldn’t reach the second round? Of course not.

 

But the original premise of the poll was Rooney is doing the best he can so he can't exceed expectations as he's already doing his best. With a win ratio of 4 in 21. That's what the majority of the people polled subscribe to. 

Anyhows to avoid this dragging on I voted no as we threw away rubbish points against our relegation rivals so hand on heart can't say that we shouldn't have accrued more points at this stage. 

[TheresOnlyWanChope]

Voted no because how can Rooney be expected to do much more with embargos, no (very few fit) strikers and a lot of young players suddenly promoted to first team? There are not many options, any injuries just adds to the problems and Rooney can’t buy players he wants like other managers. Most of the matches this season we have competed, even if we lost. 

[Flying Fokker]

Rooney must be so tempted to put on his boots and play himself.  That could come.  

When Derby played the club I follow you looked good and we looked about the same (In the end).  But both clubs need quality strikers.  

I'm not a fan of Rooney generally but he is showing resilience and that is something I didn't expect.  I thought he'd be off and nobody would have been surprised in him doing so.  He's wayward at times but credit is due for him staying...Still don't like him but he's doing it the hard way unlike Stephen Gerard going to a tin-pot league.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kathcairns]

2 hours ago, Jimbo Ram said:

Nobody could do any better….in your opinion eh???????

Tell us who is better then, and would want to come in the position our club is in. You can please some of the people all the time.you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time. Very apt at the moment, and agood saying for football in general.

[Tyler Durden]

5 minutes ago, Flying Fokker said:

Still don't like him but he's doing it the hard way unlike Stephen Gerard going to a tin-pot league.

Don't say that....Morris has nearly liquidated the club trying to get us into the same tin-pot league.....