Should Rooney be doing better under the current circumstances?

[Chester40]

18 minutes ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

And it's clickbait because as I've already clearly explained, the entire premise of judging Rooney's performance without taking into account anyy mitigating circumstances is the very definition of futility.

But do you think anybody is doing that though? All managers are judged based on what they have (with Derby being an extreme case) which is why Sean Dyche is still in a job as an example.

If we weren't setting aside circumstances then the majority of fans would be calling for his head looking purely at the stats surely?

As it is,  I'm guessing 3/4s are still firmly behind him with the other 1/4 slightly guiltily saying thanks for holding the ship together but at the same time wondering if in hopefully less turbulent days we wouldn't benefit from a different voice.

I don't think he's doing too badly this season but if I agree to set it aside as not being fair to judge him on,  then he has no experience other than last season... (which I still find staggering is classed as a 'success' by some). On that basis I can see him maybe getting us to mid table in a 'normal' year, but hopefully we will be pushing for promotion and I would prefer someone with experience of that if possible to be in place by next season. If not then we go with what we have and I wouldn't begrudge him the opportunity as he has massively gone up in my estimation in many regards.

[Comrade 86]

25 minutes ago, Chester40 said:

But do you think anybody is doing that though? All managers are judged based on what they have (with Derby being an extreme case) which is why Sean Dyche is still in a job as an example.

I don't know on what basis others are casting their vote.  The point I made though refers to the premise of the poll itself which I think is stated pretty clearly. 

[Kingpin]

50 minutes ago, Andicis said:

How many other managers are under embargo with a 21 point deduction

None…. But should that mean any and all on pitch results and performance standards are acceptable? just because MM ran the club like the novice he was. To me it’s a no. 
 

 

[LeedsCityRam]

4 hours ago, Jimbo Ram said:

So you are saying he should have done a lot better with the players he had last season….agreed……but he can be excused for his poor record this season because of the circumstances ?

Yes, exactly that. And as further mitigation we're playing better football this season & the young players have come on significantly...especially Bird, Thompson, Williams & Ebosele.

40 minutes ago, Rich84 said:

I think your 1st point about Bournemouth further supports my comments back on page 2, the squad have it in them but we were 2nd best in 1st half v Bournemouth as we were yesterday,  and he had to change it, mindset and/or personnel in 2nd half, it worked against Bournemouth but not yesterday,  so I think he can be doing better, especially against the likes of Bristol, get everyone to watch the change in mentality between halves in that game and actually start on the front foot, with options on the pitch instead of 1 creative player in starting 11. 

I know what you are saying about opportunistic because of who started the thread, but it doesn't mean it isn't a valid point. There are plenty of reasonable posters that have said they think he's coping well within difficult circumstances, but we should have more points on the board, so he should be doing better.

Off the pitch, I think he's shown to be a real leader with understanding and depth which belies the perception so many have of him, I will always be appreciative of how he's keeping the club viable during this time.

The problem is assuming we can maintain that level of performance v Bournemouth and Fulham in every game. We dont have the squad depth & there is a considerable physiological & tactical difference between being a massive underdog v top of the table and playing someone like Bristol, who are a dismal side & where expectations from our fans are higher. The issue is Bristol have options in their squad that we don't & experience/physicality/pace which our side also don't because of how its been hollowed out by the EFL.

Genuine question & happy to hear also from other posters voting 'yes' to this poll...if we didnt have points deductions, what position would you expect this side/squad to be currently? We are '21st' as things stand, just outside bottom 3.

[Tamworthram]

1 hour ago, Kingpin said:

No. But ifs and buts… you know the rest. 

Of course but the argument was about there being no chance whereas there is a chance however remote. In another post I said, if we stayed up Rooney would only have to perform one more miracle to qualify to be canonised but, there is still the slenderest threads of hope. 

[Andicis]

19 minutes ago, Kingpin said:

None…. But should that mean any and all on pitch results and performance standards are acceptable? just because MM ran the club like the novice he was. To me it’s a no. 
 

 

Do you not think the players would be massively deflated due to the deductions? Do you think this is a good squad? Do you think it's one Rooney would have chosen if he'd had a choice? 

Its not that "all on pitch results and performance standards are acceptable" but I believe we have a poor squad as a baseline, as well as being under complete off the pitch turmoil and Rooney hasn't been able to bring in any players he'd like to sign. What style of play suits this squad, even? 

[Jimbo Ram]

1 hour ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

You can. Trying to stop you bitching about Rooney is well proven as a thankless task. Fill your boots mate.

And it's clickbait because as I've already clearly explained, the entire premise of judging Rooney's performance without taking into account any mitigating circumstances is the very definition of futility.

What were the mitigating circumstances last season? He had a reasonable squad that should have been mid table. We survived on the last day after the most abysmal run imaginable. Not bitching mate just trying to get some rational discussion about Rooney over and above nobody could do better, what a star for not walking away etc etc…..

[Eatonram]

11 minutes ago, Jimbo Ram said:

What were the mitigating circumstances last season? He had a reasonable squad that should have been mid table. We survived on the last day after the most abysmal run imaginable. Not bitching mate just trying to get some rational discussion about Rooney over and above nobody could do better, what a star for not walking away etc etc…..

Well taken on there own, both points a fairly important/

on top of that, he assembled as competitive squad as could be achieved with the time and financial constraints. By competitive, I mean capable of not being relegated.

There is IMO clearly a style of play and identity, we may not all like it but I think there are some examples of when it clearly works. If he had the quality pf player that we have had in the past, I have no doubt he would be achieving far more.

As ever, and it has always been the case in Football, you should only sack a manager, if you think you can attract a better one. So who do you have in mind?

[Comrade 86]

8 minutes ago, Jimbo Ram said:

What were the mitigating circumstances last season?

Where have I mentioned last season? See here's the issue; these repetitive and poorly executed strawman arguments just don't wash. FWIW, I dished it out as much as the next man last season, but weirdly the world kept spinning and here we are in a new season.

You already know this, but I'll briefly play your game and point out that both the poll and the ENTIRETY of my post were concerned solely with this season's results, with no reference at all to last year. With that fact undeniable, I'll bid you a civilised evening and leave others to revisit the rabbit hole, should they so wish.

[Crewton]

57 minutes ago, Kingpin said:

None…. But should that mean any and all on pitch results and performance standards are acceptable? just because MM ran the club like the novice he was. To me it’s a no. 
 

 

Can you imagine trying to inspire and motivate a team that has twice been shunted back into negative figures, and now finds itself once again written off as already relegated? 

If you think that doesn't affect performance, you're kidding yourself. 

[Kathcairns]

2 hours ago, Kingpin said:

How many other championship managers get a proverbial “free hit”?

If this were the case it would reek of special treatment due to his name, which would be wrong. Regardless of mitigating circumstances.  

 

How many other clubs are in administration.

[Bris Vegas]

3 hours ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

So let me get this straight; we're being asked to assess an assumed 22 point haul with the same squad, but without any real world real context, ie the small matter of embargos, points deductions and all the other restrictions and inhibitors? Question: What's the point in that? I mean why not simply assess Rooney using material facts rather than make some poo up? Hardly an objective approach is it?

As for his performance, only the top three have better defensive records. I know our narratives wildly differ and this despite me not being Rooney's biggest fan, but surely that's not only pretty remarkable, but also reflects very positively on Rooney and the coaches? I don't think glibly alluding to our defensive output as 'one of the better records' is anything other than an obvious example of damning with feint praise. Let's have it right. Last season we seemed to concede every time opponents launched the ball into our box, so unless I'm mistaken, the difference is night and day. 

As for our goalscoring record, yep, it's poor, but given CKR has been injured all season and we have no other target man, might this at least partially explain why we are so easy to defend against, or should we be blaming Rooney for players getting injured (Knight aside) and the club's inability to find a proven goalscorer who was BOTH a free agent AND prepared to play for £4.5k a week?

I dare say if we had a Mitrovic, a Brereton or a Solanke in our team (or even half of one of their output) allied to our strong defensive unit, there'd be rather less appetite for artificial polls whose only purpose seems to be to provide a noisy minority with yet another opportunity to publicly vent their spleens.

Pure Poundland clickbait masquerading as debate, I'm afraid, and wholly unworthy of any purported professional content provider.

 

I think you’ve read too much into it.

I was merely asking whether people think Rooney is doing a good job under the current set of circumstances.

It would be entirely unfair to judge him without taking that into account.

I think he is doing a 7/10 job under the current circumstances. Pretty decent. 

[BramcoteRam84]

I think with the embargo we’ve been under and the restrictions most would agree we’d have a tough job to survive even without points deductions. We have no squad depth, our players are either at the end of their careers or the beginning, we have very few players in their prime, I can only think of Lawrence and possibly Shinnie and Byrne in our whole squad who are players in their prime and i think the latter two are probably on the decline.

I think 21st without points deductions is ok. But then throw in all the other crap he’s had to deal with he’s done a decent job

[Ambitious]

I think it's a worthwhile question, but ultimately it's impossible to say either way. The off-the-field nonsense undoubtedly impacts matters on it. 

I do believe he's made very good progress as a manager from last year, the improvement in that regard is night and day. The football we're playing has improved and the mentality of the team has been hugely impressive considering everything going on. I would give him a lot of credit for that. 

I hope that he gets the opportunity here to showcase his ability as a manager/coach with a supportive backroom behind him, free of restrictions. If that doesn't happen, I'm fairly sure he's done enough to get another crack at another football league club, better for his time here. He's trending upwards, therefore I will continue to support him and I believe I was his biggest critic last year.

[Comrade 86]

9 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

I think you’ve read too much into it.

I was merely asking whether people think Rooney is doing a good job under the current set of circumstances.

 

21 hours ago, Bris Vegas said:

So yes we have the points deduction and the embargoes. But let’s just forget that for one minute. With the current squad, removing any points deduction, we would be 21st in the ‘alternate table’.

Four wins from 21. 17 goals scored, with just three in our last nine away games.

One win in 11. 

?

[Bris Vegas]

2 minutes ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

 

?

Again I think you have misunderstood. The question I was asking basically is do you think Rooney should be doing better with the current set of players?

Everyone would defend Rooney because of the circumstances. He was clearly hindered by embargoes, points deductions etc. Of course it is entirely unfair to criticise our current position without taking that into context.

That’s why the poll question was should he be doing better under the current circumstances.

Simply, forget the deductions, embargoes etc. should Rooney be doing better with our current set of players? Should he getting more points or better performances from our current set of players?

[RoyMac5]

2 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

Again I think you have misunderstood. The question I was asking basically is do you think Rooney should be doing better with the current set of players?

No. Anyone who thinks it's easy to score goals without a goal-scorer needs to re-assess what football is all about.

The defence have been amazing though, but still under too much pressure.

Edited December 5, 2021 by RoyMac5

[Jimbo Ram]

51 minutes ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Where have I mentioned last season? See here's the issue; these repetitive and poorly executed strawman arguments just don't wash. FWIW, I dished it out as much as the next man last season, but weirdly the world kept spinning and here we are in a new season.

You already know this, but I'll briefly play your game and point out that both the poll and the ENTIRETY of my post were concerned solely with this season's results, with no reference at all to last year. With that fact undeniable, I'll bid you a civilised evening and leave others to revisit the rabbit hole, should they so wish.

But surely you have to judge Rooney on his period of managing Derby, not pick and choose which matches count. His record speaks for itself. Both last season and this season his record has been poor. He should never have been appointed. But anyway, enjoy your evening ???

[Jimbo Ram]

1 hour ago, Eatonram said:

Well taken on there own, both points a fairly important/

on top of that, he assembled as competitive squad as could be achieved with the time and financial constraints. By competitive, I mean capable of not being relegated.

There is IMO clearly a style of play and identity, we may not all like it but I think there are some examples of when it clearly works. If he had the quality pf player that we have had in the past, I have no doubt he would be achieving far more.

As ever, and it has always been the case in Football, you should only sack a manager, if you think you can attract a better one. So who do you have in mind?

Wassall, Ryan Lowe, Ian Evatt and Rob Edwards a few for starters ?

[Andicis]

2 minutes ago, Jimbo Ram said:

Wassall, Ryan Lowe, Ian Evatt and Rob Edwards a few for starters ?

Wassall, who is completely unproven other than a short interim spell with Redknapp babysitting him in which he had a very good squad. And then 3 managers who've never managed above league one level.