Derby finally accept 21 point deduction.

[Crewton]

5 minutes ago, Red Ram said:

The answer to this question is in the 'Agreed Decision':-

"As a direct result of such breach, “the Club significantly reduced its costs in the years in question compared to other Championship clubs, which had the effect that, because of the FFP restrictions, they were potentially able to increase their spend on player purchases in those years compared to what would have occurred had they adopted the straight-line treatment which other clubs adopt”

That judgement should also have been applied to earlier FFP dodges utilised by the likes of Leicester, Watford, Wolves, Boro and Forest, but which, quite astonishingly, were either deemed permitted under the rules or were (incredibly naively imo) judged to have been done without the deliberate intention to deceive. 

[StarterForTen]

1 hour ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

And the business plan only applies this season if I read it correctly which could be seen as a concession from the EFL given their rules state 2 year business plan on exiting administration.

This Business Plan isn't the one for exiting Administration - that's still to come! Our current one is just a business plan assigned to the agreed decision for the accrued P&S breaches.

I think we should brace ourselves for further restrictions covering next season (and maybe even the season after that) as part of the CVA agreement on leaving Administration. No idea how strict that could be.

[PistoldPete]

9 minutes ago, StarterForTen said:

This Business Plan isn't the one for exiting Administration - that's still to come! Our current one is just a business plan assigned to the agreed decision for the accrued P&S breaches.

I think we should brace ourselves for further restrictions covering next season (and maybe even the season after that) as part of the CVA agreement on leaving Administration. No idea how strict that could be.

I suspect you may be right. And some restraint is definitely the right thing especially when creditors have taken a hit. 

[Gaspode]

17 minutes ago, StarterForTen said:

This Business Plan isn't the one for exiting Administration - that's still to come! Our current one is just a business plan assigned to the agreed decision for the accrued P&S breaches.

I think we should brace ourselves for further restrictions covering next season (and maybe even the season after that) as part of the CVA agreement on leaving Administration. No idea how strict that could be.

Given that the statements have been reviewed by a large number of people and you seem to be prretty much the only one to come to this conclusion, please could you explain to us mere mortals how you KNOW this....

[PistoldPete]

23 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

I imagine the club and EFL know.

It appears the Covid year isn't accounted for, so no punishments or adjustments made for the relevant years.
Adjusting my figures slightly to suit would give something like this:

14/15 = -£5.60m
15/16 = -£22.12m
16/17 = -£19.04m
17/18 = -£2.12m
18/19 = -£35.60m
19/20 = -£35.00m
20/21 = -£16.68m

Many thanks for all this GoC, much more meaningul than EFL's presentation of the figures. You are one of the most informed and informative posters on here. Thank you.

And "whichever you slice it" total net current expenditure of £136 million over 7 years has included some colossal wastes of money. 

But noticeable that the year most affected by COVID was the lowest losses (excluding the windfall of PPS). We could have been close to profitability in 2020/21 if not for COVID. Which does highlight that Mel's big spending had come to an end before COVID and the appeal should have had merit i think.   

[duncanjwitham]

11 minutes ago, Gaspode said:

Given that the statements have been reviewed by a large number of people and you seem to be prretty much the only one to come to this conclusion, please could you explain to us mere mortals how you KNOW this....

I don't think we know if for sure, but that business plan is very much tied to the points deduction decision. And we haven't actually left admin yet, and we don't even know on exactly what terms.  So I think it's unlikely we've seen the end of business plans yet.  It may well be the case that any future business plans build on the current one - it would be very weird if we had 2 different sets of recruitment restrictions operating on us at the same time.

[Ghost of Clough]

10 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Many thanks for all this GoC, much more meaningul than EFL's presentation of the figures. You are one of the most informed and informative posters on here. Thank you.

And "whichever you slice it" total net current expenditure of £136 million over 7 years has included some colossal wastes of money. 

But noticeable that the year most affected by COVID was the lowest losses (excluding the windfall of PPS). We could have been close to profitability in 2020/21 if not for COVID. Which does highlight that Mel's big spending had come to an end before COVID and the appeal should have had merit i think.   

Remember these are estimated P&S losses, not accounting losses... so not as close to profitability as you may think (something like £8m worse off per season iirc)

Combined P&S losses for 19/20 and 20/21 would be about £50m. Complete guesswork on the split. 

[PistoldPete]

1 minute ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Remember these are estimated P&S losses, not accounting losses... so not as close to profitability as you may think (something like £8m worse off per season iirc)

Combined P&S losses for 19/20 and 20/21 would be about £50m. Complete guesswork on the split. 

So you exclude things like academy costs , which I think is fair enough as it’s an investment rather than current expenditure. But still a drain on cash flow for sure.

[hintonsboots]

1 hour ago, The Baron said:

As requested. The above figures are before P&S adjustments (infrastructure etc) 

I see Boro are dead on 39 M for the last 3 year cycle. Will Stoke be expecting a visit from Uncle Rick and legal papers from Gibbo should they ease Boro out of a play off place ??

[PistoldPete]

1 hour ago, The Baron said:

As requested. The above figures are before P&S adjustments (infrastructure etc) 

Thanks . Stoke are going for it. Do Boro figures include the £45 million income that is heading their way ?

Edited November 18, 2021 by PistoldPete

[StarterForTen]

29 minutes ago, Gaspode said:

Given that the statements have been reviewed by a large number of people and you seem to be prretty much the only one to come to this conclusion, please could you explain to us mere mortals how you KNOW this....

How can it be a business plan for exiting Administration when we haven't exited Administration? That's how I KNOW it's not a business plan for exiting Administration.

All clubs exiting Administration are subject to an EFL business plan but, as I wrote, I have no idea how strict that might be.

[Curtains]

It’s all x@@@@@@$

[Gaspode]

3 minutes ago, StarterForTen said:

How can it be a business plan for exiting Administration when we haven't exited Administration? That's how I KNOW it's not a business plan for exiting Administration.

All clubs exiting Administration are subject to an EFL business plan but, as I wrote, I have no idea how strict that might be.

All clubs acused of breaching FFP/P&S rules are charged before being punished - but we weren't.

All clubs breaching FFP/P&S rules are punished based on a sliding scale dependent upon the size of the breach - but we weren't.

The punishment we recived and the restrictions we're currently under/will be under have been negotiaterd between the EFL and our Administrators. You have no better idea of what the scope of those punishments is than I (or anyone else outside of the involved parties) has....

 

[Hordh]

15 hours ago, hintonsboots said:

Are there any other teams on the EFL points deduction radar ? Perhaps @The Baron could do some forensics on Stoke, Brizzle and Boro ?

 

Cardiff and Hull are rumoured to be in trouble as well. Think Bristol would be OK though. 

[StarterForTen]

11 minutes ago, Gaspode said:

All clubs acused of breaching FFP/P&S rules are charged before being punished - but we weren't.

All clubs breaching FFP/P&S rules are punished based on a sliding scale dependent upon the size of the breach - but we weren't.

No they aren't - what about Reading?

[ThePrisoner]

 

[Ted McMinn Football Genius]

1 hour ago, hintonsboots said:

I see Boro are dead on 39 M for the last 3 year cycle. Will Stoke be expecting a visit from Uncle Rick and legal papers from Gibbo should they ease Boro out of a play off place ??

You know that Gibson will be crying as long as the EFL take notice, he’s a one man wrecking machine with his own agenda IMHO

[PistoldPete]

46 minutes ago, ThePrisoner said:

 

Thanks. Disappointed it will stretch into January. Hope there is no fire sale.  

[angieram]

1 hour ago, ThePrisoner said:

 

Good approach, speaking directly to the fans with the eminently sensible @Owen87ITK asking the questions we would ask. 

Reassuring comments about the ground passing back into the same ownership as the club will be; sounds disappointed that negotiations with the EFL took as long as they did but they are assured this is the clean slate we all wanted; HMRC still a work in progress. No wonder the timescale is slipping into January. Personally don't think this will make too much difference as we will have very little scope for wheeling and dealing in the transfer market and Rooney sounds like he has that in hand just waiting on the green light.

Middlesbrough and Wycombe - UGH!!!! What a totally unnecessary distraction we can well do without. Hang your heads in shame, Steve Gibson and that other bloke whose name I can't even be bothered to recall.

[ilkleyram]

3 hours ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

And the business plan only applies this season if I read it correctly which could be seen as a concession from the EFL given their rules state 2 year business plan on exiting administration.

Presumably (if we are assuming fairness and the EFL don’t have an agenda against Derby) Reading’s isn’t a clean slate they’ve took the minimal impact for this season on proviso they get their costs to a point in the future to avoid further penalties, therefore given where their costs have got to you would imagine they would need to make some seriously drastic moves to comply with future periods which would weaken their squad significantly. 
 

Also the EFL references the overspend for the Covid years in our judgement as included, so when everyone else submits their positions then we will see points deductions handed out to half the league when they fail it. For example - please tell me how Forest will avoid a points deduction when they had a revenue hit similar to ours but a £30m wage bill. 

Unless, of course, they go up.  And the signing of Andy Carroll (just before the points deduction was announced so they knew what was coming) was a statement that they haven't given up on that idea.  Carroll may not be the PL force he once promised to be, but if he keeps himself fit - a significant if on his recent record - he can certainly be a force in this league.  6 points are retrievable; 12 points probably not, and all they need to do is come 6th to give themselves a chance.

One of the many failings of the EFL is their total failure to come to any meaningful agreement with the PL about the financial impact and governance around teams moving between the two leagues. That's largely down to two things - the EFL's lack of foresight and imagination going back many years about the negative impact on equal competition of the money on offer (mainly prize money and parachute payments) and, secondly, their overall lack of comparative administrative competence.  Richard Scudamore and his team knocked them into a cocked hat and his successors continue to do so.

Unfortunately, for us and the majority of the 72 clubs that make up the EFL, that ship has long since sailed, much to the detriment of football as a whole