Hull City vs Derby County Matchday Thread

[Bianoic]

20 hours ago, sage said:

Which bit did you disagree with?

Pretty sure you will know.
Just thought it strange to celebrate a huge win and our first in months by criticising a couple of the players before saying anything positive. 
 

[sage]

25 minutes ago, Bianoic said:

Pretty sure you will know.
Just thought it strange to celebrate a huge win and our first in months by criticising a couple of the players before saying anything positive. 
 

I posted earlier with general glee. It was a critique of an evaluation rather than a criticism. When we win, I often look where we can improve and when we lose i tend to look for the positives.    

[Rampage]

The massive improvement was pretty much because Jag and Baldock had been training with us for so long. They just slotted in like in training. Simples.

[Rampage]

6 hours ago, brady1993 said:

Couple things I found interesting about the game:

• As expected Baldock helps stretch the game out which has a compounding effect on the rest of team making it easier to play
• There was a nice balance with the attacking three midfielders today. Morrison was the only one who would drop deep (often very deep) whereas both Sibley and Jozwiak would stay high and narrow alternating between offering for the ball or looking to run beyond the backline. This had the great effect (combined with Baldock) that Sibley and Jozwiak often managed to get in a lot of space to turn and drive at the defence which I think is the major goal of what we are trying to do tactically.
• There was a bit of a change in how we approached build up play and I think it's the major reason why Bird could flourish. As opposed to both DMs splitting, only Shinnie would pull into the left back slot and in fact Bird would often come more central than his starting position with Morrison often dropping into either side of him. What this meant was Bird saw a hell of a lot more of the ball and could open out onto his stronger foot more readily than when cramped up on the right. It also meant that we could limit how much off the ball was going into Shinnie. I think (but I can't be sure) a lot of this is because Jagielka can be relied upon on the ball on the right so doesn't need as easy an outball to the right off him and is comfortable stepping into that space with the ball. I think to compensate slightly for this Byrne was less forwards. 

 

Super post, brady1993.

[Bianoic]

51 minutes ago, sage said:

I posted earlier with general glee. It was a critique of an evaluation rather than a criticism. When we win, I often look where we can improve and when we lose i tend to look for the positives.

1 hour ago, sage said:

I posted earlier with general glee. It was a critique of an evaluation rather than a criticism. When we win, I often look where we can improve and when we lose i tend to look for the positives.    

Definitely going to use that phrase in the future - masterful ! 

(tin hat on, inevitable, last word, riposte expected imminently….. ) 

[AutoWindscreens]

9 hours ago, angieram said:

There's a very comfortable Holiday Inn at the marina. Rooms with balconies overlooking the water.

Marina in Hull? ... That's where they moor the icebreakers

[kevinhectoring]

7 hours ago, brady1993 said:

You say that but of the two of them Bird has been the better defensively this season. His positioning is a lot better and he doesn't get drawn out position in the same way. Personally I wouldn't necessarily punt for Morrison and Bird as a two as it could have problems defensively but so would Morrison-Shinnie because Morrison is an attacking player who drifts around and liable to not get his positioning right in defensive areas. I have doubts about getting rampaged through but the flip side is you get rampaged through a lot less if you don't give up possession cheaply in dangerous areas. 

Honestly Shinnie is a completely different player than Eustace. People view Shinnie as a Eustace with legs but really he's better tackling worse attacking Bryson. Eustace was excellent at being in the right place at the right time, screening the back four and generally marshalling space all whilst being reliable in possession. Shinnie's main strength is energy and going out to harry players, he's a ball winner rather than a holding midfielder. To be honest there are very few things I'd consider essential in football it's all about trade offs with player's qualities. Do they bring enough X to make up for Y and for my money Shinnie is falling shy in that regard right now. As an aside I do think Shinnie's physicality is somewhat overstated; he's garbage in the air and is pretty easy to disposses shoulder to shoulder and if you want a very controversial take Bird is becoming a more physically robust player than him......  

so who should we play in m/f when Knight is fit (assuming he is not sold)?

[kevinhectoring]

7 hours ago, Yani P said:

Looks like a nasty storm heading towards London..

 its heading towards Middlesborough

[California Ram.]

Curious as to Rosenoir’s comment after the game that he’d played with Baldock at Brighton and therefore knew his quality. Stearman and Allsop also in the England age group squads at the same time as Rosenoir (who played for the 21s as an overage player).  Jagielka obviously a teammate of Rooney’s at Everton and Morrison a teammate at Man u. Suggests the 5 ‘out of contract’ signings could be heavily down to the Rooney/Rosenoir relationships rather than the ‘recruitment team’. 

[DarkFruitsRam7]

7 hours ago, California Ram. said:

Curious as to Rosenoir’s comment after the game that he’d played with Baldock at Brighton and therefore knew his quality. Stearman and Allsop also in the England age group squads at the same time as Rosenoir (who played for the 21s as an overage player).  Jagielka obviously a teammate of Rooney’s at Everton and Morrison a teammate at Man u. Suggests the 5 ‘out of contract’ signings could be heavily down to the Rooney/Rosenoir relationships rather than the ‘recruitment team’. 

Agreed.

I really don’t like that approach in the long term, but if it works in the short term then I’m happy.

[angieram]

35 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

Agreed.

I really don’t like that approach in the long term, but if it works in the short term then I’m happy.

In the long term it would make the team very old indeed!

[RoyMac5]

1 hour ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

Agreed.

I really don’t like that approach in the long term, but if it works in the short term then I’m happy.

Surely it's always going to be like that - when you watch the transfers happening many seem to 'follow' managers, I was watching the Millwall game and wondering how Keiftenbuild (sp) manage to sign for Rowett, did someone hold the paper for him?! ? Blackman was chosen by Clement, but from a few choices? We don't usually get to know the ones that don't get picked after being put forward?

I would think that currently with the little we can recruit and offer, the more that players are already known the better.

[DarkFruitsRam7]

27 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Surely it's always going to be like that - when you watch the transfers happening many seem to 'follow' managers, I was watching the Millwall game and wondering how Keiftenbuild (sp) manage to sign for Rowett, did someone hold the paper for him?! ? Blackman was chosen by Clement, but from a few choices? We don't usually get to know the ones that don't get picked after being put forward?

I would think that currently with the little we can recruit and offer, the more that players are already known the better.

Not always. If you look at the smartest clubs that have been at our level (Norwich, Brentford, etc), their recruitment is driven by their recruitment teams, not the head coach. Obviously the head coach can have a say, but a manager having carte blanche to sign the players he wants to sign is a terrible strategy in the long term, in my opinion. 

Obviously it's needs must at the minute and it might just work. But in the long term, I really think we need to study what Brentford, Norwich, Barnsley, etc, are doing and apply that to our own recruitment.

Edited August 20, 2021 by DarkFruitsRam7

[RoyMac5]

1 minute ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

Not always. If you look at the smartest clubs that have been at our level (Norwich, Brentford, etc), their recruitment is driven by their recruitment teams, not the head coach. Obviously the head coach can have a say, but a manager just picking the players he wants to sign is a terrible strategy in the long term, in my opinion. 

Obviously it's needs must at the minute and it might just work. But in the long term, I really think we need to study what Brentford, Norwich, Barnsley, etc, are doing and apply that to our own recruitment.

So that last, that's three from the EFL and Prem? The majority do it another way? But yeah just messing, recruitment is a key area. And tbh I'm happy about the players coming through our Academy, they seem to get their recruitment done well. 

[brady1993]

11 hours ago, kevinhectoring said:

so who should we play in m/f when Knight is fit (assuming he is not sold)?

Bird has to play he's the only one I have the least amount of doubts about in this system and if Hull is any evidence he can truly excel in it. After that it's a bit of a question mark, we have the following options:

• Shinnie: Most experienced and best tackler but I've gone over in length the issues with him.
• Morrison: Technically phenomenal but a big question of whether he has the discipline for the position (for good or ill he has a tendancy to wander) and would move him from a position he really seems to suit. 
• Watson: Excellent touch, passer and positionally sound but is small and not great defensively. An option for certain games or game situations perhaps but not.
• J Brown: Biggest unknown in my book because it's the player I've seen the least of in a midfield capacity perhaps someone like @Ghost of Clough or @angieram would be able to tell you how suited he is for it.
• Hutchinson: For the time that he played here against Salford and the game against Notts County he looked like he knew what he was doing in the position, used the ball well and had at least some physicality to him. It's worth noting though that he was switched out of this position with Morrison against Salford but that might have been an attack minded switch given the game situation (Hutchinson has a real shot on him). Would be a gamble on his experience though.
• Knight: My main worry with Knight is he has a bit of a tendancy to go ball chasing, now he's often played in a role that required it but does he have the discipline to sit in position ? He's likely more comfortable recieving the ball in deep areas than Shinnie is but as of yet has never looked 100% comfortable with it. That could come with time though. I'd have concerns but he could very well just be a direct upgrade on Shinnie when he's fit.

Out of those I'd be tempted to give Hutchinson a crack and then Knight when he's fit but I strongly suspect if things ease up on the transfer front you will see a midfielder brought in a temporary basis. I think this is why we were interested in Carroll and I think it's why we are looking at Garner from Utd (presuming that's not dead in the water).  

[Ghost of Clough]

4 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

Bird has to play he's the only one I have the least amount of doubts about in this system and if Hull is any evidence he can truly excel in it. After that it's a bit of a question mark, we have the following options:

• Shinnie: Most experienced and best tackler but I've gone over in length the issues with him.
• Morrison: Technically phenomenal but a big question of whether he has the discipline for the position (for good or ill he has a tendancy to wander) and would move him from a position he really seems to suit. 
• Watson: Excellent touch, passer and positionally sound but is small and not great defensively. An option for certain games or game situations perhaps but not.
• J Brown: Biggest unknown in my book because it's the player I've seen the least of in a midfield capacity perhaps someone like @Ghost of Clough or @angieram would be able to tell you how suited he is for it.
• Hutchinson: For the time that he played here against Salford and the game against Notts County he looked like he knew what he was doing in the position, used the ball well and had at least some physicality to him. It's worth noting though that he was switched out of this position with Morrison against Salford but that might have been an attack minded switch given the game situation (Hutchinson has a real shot on him). Would be a gamble on his experience though.
• Knight: My main worry with Knight is he has a bit of a tendancy to go ball chasing, now he's often played in a role that required it but does he have the discipline to sit in position ? He's likely more comfortable recieving the ball in deep areas than Shinnie is but as of yet has never looked 100% comfortable with it. That could come with time though. I'd have concerns but he could very well just be a direct upgrade on Shinnie when he's fit.

Out of those I'd be tempted to give Hutchinson a crack and then Knight when he's fit but I strongly suspect if things ease up on the transfer front you will see a midfielder brought in a temporary basis. I think this is why we were interested in Carroll and I think it's why we are looking at Garner from Utd (presuming that's not dead in the water).  

JBrown hasn't got the passing range to play that role. I can't see him playing anywhere other than CB except for in the event of an injury crisis.

The one you've missed off is LThompson, who is much more of a Bird type player... just very very small (?) and is realistically a year off from being a serious contender.

All factors considered, I'd stick with Shinnie until Knight is fit. Then Bielik comes in when he's ready.

[brady1993]

3 hours ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

Agreed.

I really don’t like that approach in the long term, but if it works in the short term then I’m happy.

I do agree with you in principle but in this case I don't mind it for a couple reasons;

• The players we've brought seem to have been brought in (for the most part) with a degree of purpose i.e. we know exactly what they are about and how they will fit.
• This window is the most difficult we've faced for a good amount of time and so falling back on people you have a previous relationship with and so are more likely to take a chance based on your word makes a lot of sense.
• Last season being a disaster along with a change in manager, COVID, the ongoing "financial issues" and a potential takeover probably made a concerted scouting effort a nightmare.

Once things achieve a bit of normality then I expect this approach ceases.  

[brady1993]

2 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

JBrown hasn't got the passing range to play that role. I can't see him playing anywhere other than CB except for in the event of an injury crisis.

The one you've missed off is LThompson, who is much more of a Bird type player... just very very small (?) and is realistically a year off from being a serious contender.

All factors considered, I'd stick with Shinnie until Knight is fit. Then Bielik comes in when he's ready.

I left him Thompson off purely because he'd impact signings and therefore the chances that he has a shot there are slim to none for now.

I think your last line is likely the order Rooney takes Shinnie - Knight - Bielik (provided signings aren't made). Personally I'd be very tempted to give Hutchinson a shot but completely admit that it's a bit of a gamble.  

[Leeds Ram]

went last night and it was soooo good to see us finally get a win on the board. First half we were unlucky not to be ahead as Kamil had the pick of the chances and sibbo should have buried one. Hull did look threatening on the wings but had a habit of being offside a lot and final delivery was poor allowing us to get away with defensive errors. The tempo was still way too slow and our best play came from when we left our horseshoe tactical shape and countered naturally.

Second half we got the early goal and sat deep in the last 15 minutes allowing them a chance to equalise. Huddlestone changed the game really and if he'd have been on earlier we could have had a problem. Ultimately, we've got 4 points from 3 games against potential relegation rivals. It'll be interesting to see how we do against a better team in Middlesborough so we can judge where we really are.  

[Premier ram]

Think the stick Graeme Shinnie is getting on here is uncalled for , he is one player who leaves everything on the pitch every game he plays , his strengths far outweigh his weaknesses, against Hull his incredible engine , heart and desire to bank those 3pts for the Rams was a joy to watch , yes he makes mistakes , but that applies to most Championship players , Morrison and Bird are different types of player , Shinnie is the heartbeat