The UEFA European Championship 2020 Thread

[CWC1983]

Some pretty grim first hand accounts on the radio today from stewards / security and fans regarding the situation at Wembley on Sunday. 

 

 

 

 

 

[maxjam]

5 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Yeah. It should be easy to come up with something to get rid of racism - everyone can agree on that. Can't they. 

We'll never get rid of racism but Millwall at least swapped the boos for applause with their Stand up to Racism approach.   

'A Journey of a Thousand Miles Begins with a Single Step'

[RoyMac5]

6 minutes ago, maxjam said:

We'll never get rid of racism but Millwall at least swapped the boos for applause with their Stand up to Racism approach.   

'A Journey of a Thousand Miles Begins with a Single Step'

Yes but who was it that was happy?!

[Parsnip]

Nuts.

[maxjam]

2 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Yes but who was it that was happy?!

Surely everyone was happy at hearing the applause? 

The section of the crowd that felt it was necessary to boo the taking of the knee were at the very least happy enough to remain quiet - and the players that linked arms and 'Stood up to Racism' behind an anti-racism banner must have been happy that their message was being better received. 

Win, win.

[Gaspode]

9 hours ago, Beetroot said:

Nuts.

You'd have expected Harry to have provided him with a ticket - fancy leaving your Dad ticketless and having to try to break into the ground to watch you play in the final....

[Stive Pesley]

11 hours ago, maxjam said:

Surely everyone was happy at hearing the applause? 

The section of the crowd that felt it was necessary to boo the taking of the knee were at the very least happy enough to remain quiet - and the players that linked arms and 'Stood up to Racism' behind an anti-racism banner must have been happy that their message was being better received. 

Win, win.

This all sounds a bit 

[maxjam]

32 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

This all sounds a bit 

Although no one is telling anyone what to do - I'm just using my eyes and ears to judge what works.

Kneel - some people boo

Stand - applause

I repeat, if the end goal is to eradicate racism why would you insist upon using one method that studies have shown to be divisive when other methods are available that are greeted with widespread applause?  

No one is saying you can't continue to kneel, but its turning into a bit of an own goal.  As support for BLM wanes maybe the smart thing to do is to rethink your approach and tailor your message to include the people that need hear it the most.

It seems to me however that some people are far happier perpetuating the divide and shouting racist at everyone that disagrees with them rather than actually solving the problem of racism. 

We'll no doubt continue to have debates about taking the knee well into next season - drawing up the battle lines, separating into our respective camps and discussing the rights and wrongs of booing etc, without ever actually achieving anything.  Forgive me for thinking there is a better way.

[Stive Pesley]

36 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Although no one is telling anyone what to do

The sad thing is - that's exactly what you're doing, and you can't even see it

"don't protest like this - do it more like what I think"

 

 

[DarkFruitsRam7]

I don't really want to be dragged into a debate, but watch this from 1:35 onwards (takes less than 40 seconds). When the players tell you exactly why they're kneeling (nothing whatsoever to do with politics) and they still face boos from people who have no idea what it's like to be in their shoes, you can see why it rankles. Especially when the boo boys aren't condemned (and are arguably encouraged) by senior figures in government.

 

[cstand]

On 13/07/2021 at 11:45, Stive Pesley said:

Thing is, there is either a clear message that racism in any form is unacceptable or there isn't.

Mixed messages from those in power are simply not good enough. That's what Mings is pointing out

Every time someone looks for an excuse, or a loophole, or a weasel interpretation of why they think it's not actually pro-racist to boo an anti-racist gesture - THAT right there is the problem.

If you don't see that right now is the time for solidarity and a clear message then you can't be surprised when racism happens

 

 

Racism in any form is unacceptable ….Please tell me which fit and proper person decides what is classed as racism unfortunately many people who support players taking the knee would only be happy with a Matthew Hopkins character.

 

 

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by cstand

[maxjam]

33 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

The sad thing is - that's exactly what you're doing, and you can't even see it

"don't protest like this - do it more like what I think"

I can see what you're saying, I just happen to disagree with it - which is the sticking point.

- your argument is that by changing the protest they are somehow being told how to protest, regardless of the fact that the existing protest is causing division and we're spending more time arguing over the act of taking the knee than what it hopes to achieve.

- my argument is that they tweak the protest to achieve the end goal.  Spend more time and energy actually making things better and less time going around in circles arguing whether various gestures are political or otherwise. 

One method has led us to falling support for BLM and a seemingly never-ending circular argument.  The other has been tried in a limited number of places and met with great success. 

I've probably argued the point as well I can now and have already repeated myself enough times to start boring everybody to tears so unless there is a new angle to discuss its probably better left ?

[Stive Pesley]

5 minutes ago, maxjam said:

I can see what you're saying, I just happen to disagree with it - which is the sticking point.

- your argument is that by changing the protest they are somehow being told how to protest, regardless of the fact that the existing protest is causing division and we're spending more time arguing over the act of taking the knee than what it hopes to achieve.

- my argument is that they tweak the protest to achieve the end goal.  Spend more time and energy actually making things better and less time going around in circles arguing whether various gestures are political or otherwise. 

One method has led us to falling support for BLM and a seemingly never-ending circular argument.  The other has been tried in a limited number of places and met with great success. 

I've probably argued the point as well I can now and have already repeated myself enough times to start boring everybody to tears so unless there is a new angle to discuss its probably better left ?

I do get what you're saying, and I did originally think along the same lines. If they just changed the format of the protest then the mouth-breathers who repeatedly used the angle of "disagreeing with the politics of BLM" as an excuse for why they were booing - they would have no longer have anything to hide behind (or if they just came up with a new excuse as to why they don't like it - it would expose their true intentions even more)

But then I realised that the majority  can't police how, when and where the minority protest their oppression - that just doesn't work

If a protest against oppression doesn't make you either empathise or support, but your initial response is defensive - then you're part of the problem and the protest is doing something right

They shouldn't change their protest to appease anyone who feels uncomfortable with it. Full stop

Yes we have to unite and heal as a nation - and that involves defeating those who seek to divide. Which starts with people respecting the rights of footballers to protest however they want

[cstand]

2 hours ago, Stive Pesley said:

This all sounds a bit 

Think Max Jam won this one if you have to resort to digging up old chestnuts 

[GboroRam]

I'm loathe to join in to this conversation as I'm fairly sure I'll be removing posts soon - but I did find it funny that GB News took the knee in a Damascene revelation. That's probably halved their viewing figures, if it was big enough to be halved still.

[Ghost of Clough]

2 hours ago, Stive Pesley said:

The sad thing is - that's exactly what you're doing, and you can't even see it

"don't protest like this - do it more like what I think"

A successful message should be aimed towards the target audience.

If the way that message is being delivered angers the target audience, then a different way of delivering the message must be found.

Does a professor deliver a speech to his peers the same way he would describe the same thing to their child for example?

[uttoxram75]

32 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

A successful message should be aimed towards the target audience.

If the way that message is being delivered angers the target audience, then a different way of delivering the message must be found.

Does a professor deliver a speech to his peers the same way he would describe the same thing to their child for example?

I doubt any message will work considering the target audience are racist.

We will always have a percentage of racists amongst us, always have. We also have people in control of government and media who use that racism to divide us.

Personally, I think how Derby dealt with it by standing together is the way to go, CKR standing tall with his Black Power salute is more political and aggressive than taking the knee. It’s not asking people to be less racist it’s telling them it won’t be accepted.

Perhaps that’s the message that needs to be put out there.

Whatever, it’s very, very difficult to believe those booing it and condoning the booing are not racist if we’re all honest.

[Gone]

I really hope the Derby stewards expect my £20 bribe when we play Huddersfield on Aug 7th………to let me out early when we’re 3-0 down !!!!

 

[AndyinLiverpool]

3 hours ago, GboroRam said:

I'm loathe to join in to this conversation as I'm fairly sure I'll be removing posts soon - but I did find it funny that GB News took the knee in a Damascene revelation. That's probably halved their viewing figures, if it was big enough to be halved still.

Suddenly realised what side they are on, did they?

[ariotofmyown]

7 hours ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

I don't really want to be dragged into a debate, but watch this from 1:35 onwards (takes less than 40 seconds). When the players tell you exactly why they're kneeling (nothing whatsoever to do with politics) and they still face boos from people who have no idea what it's like to be in their shoes, you can see why it rankles. Especially when the boo boys aren't condemned (and are arguably encouraged) by senior figures in government.

 

Don't come crying when you find those god damn reds hiding under your bed though!