The UEFA European Championship 2020 Thread

[G STAR RAM]

2 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

Thing is, there is either a clear message that racism in any form is unacceptable or there isn't.

Mixed messages from those in power are simply not good enough. That's what Mings is pointing out

Every time someone looks for an excuse, or a loophole, or a weasel interpretation of why they think it's not actually pro-racist to boo an anti-racist gesture - THAT right there is the problem.

If you don't see that right now is the time for solidarity and a clear message then you can't be surprised when racism happens

But there was no mixed message.

Priti Patel said if people want to boo players taking the knee that they have the right to do that.

Now when racism has actually ocurred she has correctly called it out.

Not sure what the mixed message here is?

[nottingram]

10 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

But there was no mixed message.

Priti Patel said if people want to boo players taking the knee that they have the right to do that.

Now when racism has actually ocurred she has correctly called it out.

Not sure what the mixed message here is?

Of course they have the right to do it. I don’t think booing the knee in and of itself means they are racist but I think it is pretty clear that some who do boo, are doing so because they are racist. Priti Patel obviously does not need to condemn this but she had the chance to and instead condemned the knee as “gesture politics.”

The question then is whether not condemning it, and therefore not condemning the racist element of that, leads to a situation where the racists in our society feel empowered to abuse the England players, which is the very reason they are kneeling. Tyrone Mings clearly feels this is the case. 

Personally, I feel Priti Patel did not need to condemn the boos but perhaps could have used the opportunity to plead with those who do so to please listen to the players as to why they are doing it. She instead said it was gesture politics and “stoked” the situation, as Mings says. The players were then racially abused. Did she directly cause that? No, clearly not. Could she have taken steps to help reduce or prevent it? Yes, I think she could.

I imagine she has faced racism in her life, and that is a disgrace. In an ideal world, it would have been good for that to allow her to empathise with why England players feel taking the knee is important to them. 

[G STAR RAM]

11 minutes ago, nottingram said:

Of course they have the right to do it. I don’t think booing the knee in and of itself means they are racist but I think it is pretty clear that some who do boo, are doing so because they are racist. Priti Patel obviously does not need to condemn this but she had the chance to and instead condemned the knee as “gesture politics.”

The question then is whether not condemning it, and therefore not condemning the racist element of that, leads to a situation where the racists in our society feel empowered to abuse the England players, which is the very reason they are kneeling. Tyrone Mings clearly feels this is the case. 

Personally, I feel Priti Patel did not need to condemn the boos but perhaps could have used the opportunity to plead with those who do so to please listen to the players as to why they are doing it. She instead said it was gesture politics and “stoked” the situation, as Mings says. The players were then racially abused. Did she directly cause that? No, clearly not. Could she have taken steps to help reduce or prevent it? Yes, I think she could.

I imagine she has faced racism in her life, and that is a disgrace. In an ideal world, it would have been good for that to allow her to empathise with why England players feel taking the knee is important to them. 

Fair comments. 

[Jubbs]

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

Where is the evidence that the people who booed taking the knee are all racists? ANSWER - THERE IS NONE 

Soooo why else were they boo'ing taking the knee? 

[ketteringram]

5 minutes ago, Jubbs said:

Soooo why else were they boo'ing taking the knee? 

For all I know, they could be booing the opposition for not taking the knee?

[maxjam]

31 minutes ago, Jubbs said:

Soooo why else were they boo'ing taking the knee? 

Because for many people 'taking the knee' whilst repeatedly being told wasn't a political gesture is to closely related to the BLM political movement that has been associated with violence and calls to defund the police etc.

Millwall have done a lot of good work in recent times re. racism and understood very quickly that taking the knee is divisive - fans booed when the players did it, but a week later applauded when they stood together behind an anti-racism banner.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55239475

Personally, I wouldn't boo but neither would I kneel.  I also fully understand the difference between booing the act of kneeling and being racist - which many have tried to conflate.  I don't think it achieves anything and causes just as much negative press as positive.  IMHO there are other, less divisive ways of getting the message across as Millwall - and indeed Derby have shown us.  

[G STAR RAM]

32 minutes ago, Jubbs said:

Soooo why else were they boo'ing taking the knee? 

Pretty sure (not to be confused with Priti Patel) that the reasons have already been discussed to death.

[Stive Pesley]

Every time 

[Stive Pesley]

word on the street is that the players all refused to attend - another act of admirable solidarity

 

[1of4]

4 hours ago, maxjam said:

Because for many people 'taking the knee' whilst repeatedly being told wasn't a political gesture is to closely related to the BLM political movement that has been associated with violence and calls to defund the police etc.

Millwall have done a lot of good work in recent times re. racism and understood very quickly that taking the knee is divisive - fans booed when the players did it, but a week later applauded when they stood together behind an anti-racism banner.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55239475

Personally, I wouldn't boo but neither would I kneel.  I also fully understand the difference between booing the act of kneeling and being racist - which many have tried to conflate.  I don't think it achieves anything and causes just as much negative press as positive.  IMHO there are other, less divisive ways of getting the message across as Millwall - and indeed Derby have shown us.  

Why is taking the knee more divisive than standing has a group at the pitch side?  Are not both actions a protest against racism? 

Anyone that boos ethier of these two actions, must mean they disagree with the reason why these actions are taking place. As the reason for these actions is to raise awareness of and the stopping of the endemic racism in our society. So anyone booing these actions must be condoning acts of racism.

[G STAR RAM]

1 hour ago, 1of4 said:

Why is taking the knee more divisive than standing has a group at the pitch side?  Are not both actions a protest against racism? 

Anyone that boos ethier of these two actions, must mean they disagree with the reason why these actions are taking place. As the reason for these actions is to raise awareness of and the stopping of the endemic racism in our society. So anyone booing these actions must be condoning acts of racism.

By your logic, any player not taking the knee must disagree with the reason why these actions are taking place.

Do you therefore think players such as Lyle Taylor and Wilfried Zaha condone acts of racism?

[1of4]

8 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

By your logic, any player not taking the knee must disagree with the reason why these actions are taking place.

Do you therefore think players such as Lyle Taylor and Wilfried Zaha condone acts of racism?

Where they booing?

[maxjam]

1 hour ago, 1of4 said:

Why is taking the knee more divisive than standing has a group at the pitch side?  Are not both actions a protest against racism? 

Anyone that boos ethier of these two actions, must mean they disagree with the reason why these actions are taking place. As the reason for these actions is to raise awareness of and the stopping of the endemic racism in our society. So anyone booing these actions must be condoning acts of racism.

If you google 'why is taking the knee divisive' you can find lots of articles discussing numerous reasons from keeping politics out of sport to it being politically motivated - its probably not really a subject for discussion on this forum however.

I would wholeheartedly reject your assertion that booing condones racism.  You can boo the act without booing the cause.  I guess thats the sticking point that many people will disagree on.

If Millwall, amongst others, can turn boos into applause IMO it not only proves that the boos were directed at the act of taking the knee and not because they were condoning racism but also there is a far better way to raise awareness - and one that doesn't cause any controversy.  Why settle on the one cause that does cause friction when there are others that achieve the same result with the aggro?

Furthermore whilst any racist abuse is to much, endemic is a bit strong - the media does have a habit of blowing things out of all proportion.  According to The Guardian and Hope Not Hate more than 120 instances of England players receiving direct racial abuse on Twitter in the hours following the game compared to just 44 racist messages during England’s first three matches of the tournament.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/jul/12/gareth-southgate-racist-abuse-of-england-players-unforgiveable

We also have to remember that Twitter users span the globe and a lot of abuse comes from abroad;

“For some of [the players] to be abused is unforgivable really,” Southgate said. “I know a lot has come from abroad. People who track those things have been able to explain that. But not all of it.

I personally feel that we have made massive strides in this country over recent years but we risk taking a few backwards steps unless everyone is onboard with the message.

[RoyMac5]

2 minutes ago, maxjam said:

If Millwall, amongst others, can turn boos into applause IMO it not only proves that the boos were directed at the act of taking the knee and not because they were condoning racism but also there is a far better way to raise awareness - and one that doesn't cause any controversy.  Why settle on the one cause that does cause friction when there are others that achieve the same result with the aggro?

Perhaps because the 'act' was chosen by people affected by the racism. Not by those in authority. I also saw posters complain about 'black power' salutes. Is it any surprise? How long do people of colour have to live a 'second class' existence? I too would want a revolution!

[G STAR RAM]

16 minutes ago, 1of4 said:

Where they booing?

No but not joining in must mean they disagree with it, which is surely what the booing is also demonstrating?

[maxjam]

26 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Perhaps because the 'act' was chosen by people affected by the racism. Not by those in authority. I also saw posters complain about 'black power' salutes. Is it any surprise? How long do people of colour have to live a 'second class' existence? I too would want a revolution!

Unfortunately there are two parties involved any disagreement and unless you can bring both sides together to solve the problem it will never get any better.

If, as Millwall have done, standing up to racism reduces the 'noise' surrounding the taking of the knee then surely thats a good thing? 

If the end result you seek is to eradicate racism then surely the route you take to get there is less important than the end goal - and the more people you can involve the faster, the better.  Why continue to put obstacles in your way?

[RoyMac5]

1 minute ago, maxjam said:

If the end result you seek is to eradicate racism then surely the route you take to get there is less important than the end goal - and the more people you can involve the faster, the better.  Why continue to put obstacles in your way?

Again, put yourself in 'their shoes' why should you (yet again) be told what to do, just to keep 'some fans' happy.

Edited July 13, 2021 by RoyMac5

[maxjam]

38 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Again, put yourself in 'their shoes' why should you (yet again) be told what to do, just to keep 'some fans' happy.

No one is telling them what to do though as they continue to take the knee.

If you could get better results doing something different though, why wouldn't you change approach?

Whether we like it or not, taking the knee is divisive and if your end goal is to eradicate racism, without telling anyone what to do, maybe it would be an idea to come up with a better approach.

https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/almost-half-football-fans-england-support-england-team-taking-knee-euro-2020

[RoyMac5]

1 minute ago, maxjam said:

Whether we like it or not, taking the knee is divisive and if your end goal is to eradicate racism, without telling anyone what to do, maybe it would be an idea to come up with a better approach.

Yeah. It should be easy to come up with something to get rid of racism - everyone can agree on that. Can't they. 

That is the point. If you were encouraged to behave nicely and stop taking a knee because some 'folk' disagreed, well wouldn't you just stop. Stop annoying those people who disagree with what you want!

[alexxxxx]

The whole debacle after the game with the gov, the racism and garbage just shows why they need to continue to make a stand. And I think footballers can continue to decide the best way to do that.