New Manager

[HorsforthRam]

Our next manager- hopefully years away

[minesahartington]

I would really be a interested to know whether the older fans who have seen great times with the rams.be satisfied with mid Division 2 finish? 

 

[minesahartington]

8 hours ago, Jourdan said:

At the end of the day, what is important to us how he performs as manager of Derby County. Anything else is irrelevant.

Just because you’ve had success in your playing career or earlier in your management career, it brings no guarantees when you step into a new, drastically different job. That’s the point.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say Cocu can’t dine out on past achievements - he has to keep proving himself and silencing the doubters.

Cocu is not a Mourinho, Guardiola or Klopp, or a Messi or a Ronaldo - a transcendent figure of the game - so I am really not sure this group of players would be particularly moved by his past achievements. 

What they will respond to is coaching and man management that brings out the best in them. So far, there is only a little evidence of that happening.

I think if we asked Mourinho about Cocu and this Derby team, he would make the same comments about the Spurs team he inherited. They are too nice, and being nice often doesn’t win you football matches.

No-one is disputing that Cocu is nice, pleasant, dignified, respectful and conducts himself well. But at the end of the day, it’s not a personality contest. It’s football management.

We want him to inspire his players, lift his players, organise his players, and win football matches. Sometimes that requires a bit of edge, a bit of arrogance, a bit of a nasty streak.

You could argue that Cocu perhaps needs to adapt to get what he wants out of the players and key people at the club. 

Is Mel going the extra mile for Cocu? Are the players? It doesn’t seem like it and that should be a concern for everyone.

That post is far too sensible, how dare you!

[IslandExile]

35 minutes ago, minesahartington said:

I would really be a interested to know whether the older fans who have seen great times with the rams.be satisfied with mid Division 2 finish? 

 

I guess I fall into that category.

You have to remember that we older ones have not only seen great times, we have seen some pretty abysmal ones aswell - much worse than what we're going through now.

That is why I am a great believer in the "Cocu project". I honestly feel that he is building the club for long term and sustainable success.

Unfortunately, the "want it now" generation cannot see the situation that we are in, why we're in it and what is being done to get us out of it.

To them, it's get promotion as quickly as possible, however possible. We did that under Wee Billy - how did that work out?

@cheron85 posted what he saw as the club's 4 year plan the other day. That was a truly great post IMHO. This is year 2 from that plan, consolidation and bedding in of Cocu's signings, more experience for the youngsters.

I am really happy that Cocu is building a team that will deliver. Midtable is fine - for me - this season, because I can see this is the start of something special again for our great club.

COYR ?

[dantheram]

1 hour ago, HorsforthRam said:

Our next manager- hopefully years away

Be a darn sight closer at 15:00 tomorrow. He won’t change his style, his style doesn’t work.
 

He’ll get a few more matches simply because the fans are not present. The Watford game would’ve been tasty for him. Regardless, I’ll be surprised if he sees November. 

[Jourdan]

2 hours ago, LeedsCityRam said:

I pretty much disagree with every bit of your entire post but this bit is particularly mystifying. The guy won 100 caps for Holland & played for Barcelona...his profile is easily the equal of Lampard, who instantly had respect from the players & near hysteria from the fans when he was appointed (and left).

He's also had more previous success as a manager than any other manager we have ever appointed.

You also say he can't motivate players but I would recommend you recall what state the team was in last December before he turned it around. Remember you posting that we were in a relegation battle at Christmas, by early July we were a win off the top 6 with 4/5 games to play.

The evidence is there if you choose to see it. 

What is so mystifying?

For most footballers at the club, they are in a bubble. They probably only watch English football, the Premier League, and big Champions League nights. Unless they are real aficionados, of course. But I find it hard to imagine the likes of Waghorn and Marriott staying up late to watch Barcelona v Celta Vigo.

Cocu is a Dutch legend and a Barcelona legend. As good as he was, to the average British footballer which the majority of our players are, I would imagine he will evoke very little. 

He is not going to stir up memories of being parked in front of the TV in the living room. Not like say a Rivaldo, a Ronaldinho, a Bergkamp, an Henry, a Ronaldo and so on.

They wouldn’t have grown up wanting to be the next Phillip Cocu. He didn’t grab headlines. He wasn’t a major star in the truest sense. He wasn’t a flash player in any way and you would never read about him on the front (or back) pages.

Then when you consider that he didn’t play in the PL and he didn’t play at a time when Barcelona dominated European football, he wouldn’t have had the same reach as other players.

The height of Cocu’s playing career was the late 90s - early 2000s. Some of our first team players were still potty training when he was in his pomp and the rest at various stages of their childhoods.

So again, how much weight would his past achievements - a league title with Barcelona, seven league titles with PSV across both his careers, and countless caps with the Netherlands - hold in a dressing room of players largely brought up on English football?

In terms of profile, Lampard and Rooney are a long way ahead and would have created a much greater buzz going into the dressing room.

I never said he couldn’t motivate players, but there’s obviously an issue if there’s a huge drop off in performance levels and we are having to have emergency team meetings three league games into the season.

I said there has been little evidence of good coaching and man management, not none. Yes, we had a good spell, charged up the table, and had 4-5 outstanding performances along the way.

But it doesn’t change the fact that for two thirds of last season, we were largely very poor, uncompetitive, dull to watch and a long way from being good enough.

If it was the reverse, I highly doubt anyone would be worried right now about the current run we are on.

[CWC1983]

Missed a trick with Michael' O'Neill. Slowly but surely he's turning Stoke around. 

[BondJovi]

6 hours ago, Jourdan said:

What is so mystifying?

For most footballers at the club, they are in a bubble. They probably only watch English football, the Premier League, and big Champions League nights. Unless they are real aficionados, of course. But I find it hard to imagine the likes of Waghorn and Marriott staying up late to watch Barcelona v Celta Vigo.

Cocu is a Dutch legend and a Barcelona legend. As good as he was, to the average British footballer which the majority of our players are, I would imagine he will evoke very little. 

He is not going to stir up memories of being parked in front of the TV in the living room. Not like say a Rivaldo, a Ronaldinho, a Bergkamp, an Henry, a Ronaldo and so on.

They wouldn’t have grown up wanting to be the next Phillip Cocu. He didn’t grab headlines. He wasn’t a major star in the truest sense. He wasn’t a flash player in any way and you would never read about him on the front (or back) pages.

Then when you consider that he didn’t play in the PL and he didn’t play at a time when Barcelona dominated European football, he wouldn’t have had the same reach as other players.

The height of Cocu’s playing career was the late 90s - early 2000s. Some of our first team players were still potty training when he was in his pomp and the rest at various stages of their childhoods.

So again, how much weight would his past achievements - a league title with Barcelona, seven league titles with PSV across both his careers, and countless caps with the Netherlands - hold in a dressing room of players largely brought up on English football?

In terms of profile, Lampard and Rooney are a long way ahead and would have created a much greater buzz going into the dressing room.

I never said he couldn’t motivate players, but there’s obviously an issue if there’s a huge drop off in performance levels and we are having to have emergency team meetings three league games into the season.

I said there has been little evidence of good coaching and man management, not none. Yes, we had a good spell, charged up the table, and had 4-5 outstanding performances along the way.

But it doesn’t change the fact that for two thirds of last season, we were largely very poor, uncompetitive, dull to watch and a long way from being good enough.

If it was the reverse, I highly doubt anyone would be worried right now about the current run we are on.

We gave Nigel Clough time to fix problems. In his second full season we didn't escape relegation by much. Fans at the time argued it was nothing to do with his name that we gave him time. But it was everything.

Cocu will never be seen in the same light, even though he is trying to do a job in very similar circumstances. 

There has clearly been a lot of thought in your post as to why you think Cocu will fail. Assumed knowledge of the mindset of our players and who they look up to.

Gareth Southgate has had to have several meetings with England players about what it means to play for England.Those same players claim it is an honour to play for England!

It is all getting ridiculous. Rumoured to sign a player we might not like- our recruitment is rubbish. Not yet signed a striker - Cocu's fault. It is tedious. Dull. 

Not interested in riding that merry go round anymore.

 

[cheron85]

8 hours ago, IslandExile said:

 

@cheron85 posted what he saw as the club's 4 year plan the other day. That was a truly great post IMHO. This is year 2 from that plan, consolidation and bedding in of Cocu's signings, more experience for the youngsters.

[Truckle]

7 hours ago, Jourdan said:

What is so mystifying?

For most footballers at the club, they are in a bubble. They probably only watch English football, the Premier League, and big Champions League nights. Unless they are real aficionados, of course. But I find it hard to imagine the likes of Waghorn and Marriott staying up late to watch Barcelona v Celta Vigo.

Cocu is a Dutch legend and a Barcelona legend. As good as he was, to the average British footballer which the majority of our players are, I would imagine he will evoke very little. 

He is not going to stir up memories of being parked in front of the TV in the living room. Not like say a Rivaldo, a Ronaldinho, a Bergkamp, an Henry, a Ronaldo and so on.

They wouldn’t have grown up wanting to be the next Phillip Cocu. He didn’t grab headlines. He wasn’t a major star in the truest sense. He wasn’t a flash player in any way and you would never read about him on the front (or back) pages.

Then when you consider that he didn’t play in the PL and he didn’t play at a time when Barcelona dominated European football, he wouldn’t have had the same reach as other players.

The height of Cocu’s playing career was the late 90s - early 2000s. Some of our first team players were still potty training when he was in his pomp and the rest at various stages of their childhoods.

So again, how much weight would his past achievements - a league title with Barcelona, seven league titles with PSV across both his careers, and countless caps with the Netherlands - hold in a dressing room of players largely brought up on English football?

In terms of profile, Lampard and Rooney are a long way ahead and would have created a much greater buzz going into the dressing room.

I never said he couldn’t motivate players, but there’s obviously an issue if there’s a huge drop off in performance levels and we are having to have emergency team meetings three league games into the season.

I said there has been little evidence of good coaching and man management, not none. Yes, we had a good spell, charged up the table, and had 4-5 outstanding performances along the way.

But it doesn’t change the fact that for two thirds of last season, we were largely very poor, uncompetitive, dull to watch and a long way from being good enough.

If it was the reverse, I highly doubt anyone would be worried right now about the current run we are on.

I really don't know who or what would motivate any or our team as I've not met any of them.  As to them not really getting 'a buzz' from his career, well, I do know that the average football player has quite a lot of free time on his hands and as it only took me 5 minutes to google this team I assume they might do so too.  The team below was captained by Cocu, if I was a footballer I'd be impressed:

Cocu captained this side:

Rüştü Reçber

Michael Reiziger

Edgar Davids    

Rafael Márquez

Carles Puyol

Xavi      

Javier Saviola    

Phillip Cocu       

Patrick Kluivert 

Ronaldinho       

Marc Overmars

[LeedsCityRam]

7 hours ago, Jourdan said:

What is so mystifying?

For most footballers at the club, they are in a bubble. They probably only watch English football, the Premier League, and big Champions League nights. Unless they are real aficionados, of course. But I find it hard to imagine the likes of Waghorn and Marriott staying up late to watch Barcelona v Celta Vigo.

Cocu is a Dutch legend and a Barcelona legend. As good as he was, to the average British footballer which the majority of our players are, I would imagine he will evoke very little. 

He is not going to stir up memories of being parked in front of the TV in the living room. Not like say a Rivaldo, a Ronaldinho, a Bergkamp, an Henry, a Ronaldo and so on.

They wouldn’t have grown up wanting to be the next Phillip Cocu. He didn’t grab headlines. He wasn’t a major star in the truest sense. He wasn’t a flash player in any way and you would never read about him on the front (or back) pages.

Then when you consider that he didn’t play in the PL and he didn’t play at a time when Barcelona dominated European football, he wouldn’t have had the same reach as other players.

The height of Cocu’s playing career was the late 90s - early 2000s. Some of our first team players were still potty training when he was in his pomp and the rest at various stages of their childhoods.

So again, how much weight would his past achievements - a league title with Barcelona, seven league titles with PSV across both his careers, and countless caps with the Netherlands - hold in a dressing room of players largely brought up on English football?

In terms of profile, Lampard and Rooney are a long way ahead and would have created a much greater buzz going into the dressing room.

I never said he couldn’t motivate players, but there’s obviously an issue if there’s a huge drop off in performance levels and we are having to have emergency team meetings three league games into the season.

I said there has been little evidence of good coaching and man management, not none. Yes, we had a good spell, charged up the table, and had 4-5 outstanding performances along the way.

But it doesn’t change the fact that for two thirds of last season, we were largely very poor, uncompetitive, dull to watch and a long way from being good enough.

If it was the reverse, I highly doubt anyone would be worried right now about the current run we are on.

The first part of your post reads like you work for Sky...'yeah he was alright Jeff but never did it in the Premier League did he...?'. Sllightly surprising for someone who is normally considered & obviously brave enough to try life abroad.

Cocu played for Barcelona for 6 years during which he played countless Champions League matches, at a time when many were still shown on terrestrial telly. He also played in La Liga when interest increased massively due to Owen & Beckham moving there in 2003.

His 100 caps for Holland saw him play in a World Cup semi final (1998), a European  Championship semi final (2000) & 2 European Championship quarter finals (1996 & 2004). Many British viewers will have seen him play numerous times at the very highest level

Any slight on his playing career is totally misjudged & unnecessary. He was the equal of Lampard & Rooney in terms of ability and profile.

Re his football being dull for large periods of the season...I'd recommend an excellent article about his philosophy on the game written in The Athletic by Ryan Conway this week. The takeaway is that perfecting that style takes time & the big context (particularly at the moment) are the injuries. Of course you realise all this but seem to think its irrelevant for reasons unknown.

I want a better showing today at Norwich but theres a big difference between that & giving up on the man. Even if we lose today, Cocu still should be judged by his team when he has his best players available.

[Ellafella]

18 hours ago, Jourdan said:

At the end of the day, what is important to us how he performs as manager of Derby County. Anything else is irrelevant.

Just because you’ve had success in your playing career or earlier in your management career, it brings no guarantees when you step into a new, drastically different job. That’s the point.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say Cocu can’t dine out on past achievements - he has to keep proving himself and silencing the doubters.

Cocu is not a Mourinho, Guardiola or Klopp, or a Messi or a Ronaldo - a transcendent figure of the game - so I am really not sure this group of players would be particularly moved by his past achievements. 

What they will respond to is coaching and man management that brings out the best in them. So far, there is only a little evidence of that happening.

I think if we asked Mourinho about Cocu and this Derby team, he would make the same comments about the Spurs team he inherited. They are too nice, and being nice often doesn’t win you football matches.

-No one is disputing that Cocu is nice, pleasant, dignified, respectful and conducts himself well. But at the end of the day, it’s not a personality contest. It’s football management.

We want him to inspire his players, lift his players, organise his players, and win football matches. Sometimes that requires a bit of edge, a bit of arrogance, a bit of a nasty streak.

You could argue that Cocu perhaps needs to adapt to get what he wants out of the players and key people at the club. 

Is Mel going the extra mile for Cocu? Are the players? It doesn’t seem like it and that should be a concern for everyone.

Nail and head. It just looks like the chemistry is all wrong. 

[richinspain]

7 hours ago, CWC1983 said:

Missed a trick with Michael' O'Neill. Slowly but surely he's turning Stoke around. 

I honestly don't know how much money O'Neill has spent at Stoke, but even if he hasn't bought a single player he'd still have a bigger, better (on paper at least) squad than Cocu has had to play with. Throw in Joinersgate and the injuries we currently have in important positions, I don't think it's that good a comparison (personally, from afar).

[DRBee]

1 hour ago, Truckle said:

I really don't know who or what would motivate any or our team as I've not met any of them.  As to them not really getting 'a buzz' from his career, well, I do know that the average football player has quite a lot of free time on his hands and as it only took me 5 minutes to google this team I assume they might do so too.  The team below was captained by Cocu, if I was a footballer I'd be impressed:

Cocu captained this side:

Rüştü Reçber

Michael Reiziger

Edgar Davids    

Rafael Márquez

Carles Puyol

Xavi      

Javier Saviola    

Phillip Cocu       

Patrick Kluivert 

Ronaldinho       

Marc Overmars

managing a team to success requires different skills from being a great player. Ability to motivate and get players to perform has nothing to do with past history.

[RamNut]

I’d like to see cocu as manager demonstrate some pulling power in the transfer market. Show he can attract players. 
we’ve seen that in the past with Lampard, and OBE. 
I still think Holland is where his pull should work.

[YouRams]

1 hour ago, Truckle said:

I really don't know who or what would motivate any or our team as I've not met any of them.  As to them not really getting 'a buzz' from his career, well, I do know that the average football player has quite a lot of free time on his hands and as it only took me 5 minutes to google this team I assume they might do so too.  The team below was captained by Cocu, if I was a footballer I'd be impressed:

Cocu captained this side:

Rüştü Reçber

Michael Reiziger

Edgar Davids    

Rafael Márquez

Carles Puyol

Xavi      

Javier Saviola    

Phillip Cocu       

Patrick Kluivert 

Ronaldinho       

Marc Overmars

Sorry to make you feel as old as this thought makes me, but the young lads coming through weren’t even born when Cocu captained this side.
 

My guess is and as sad and old as it makes me feel they would’ve only heard of a few of those players and they’d be more motivated by the likes of Lampard, Rooney etc as these would’ve been the players they grew up watching. 

 

[FindernRam]

Is Cocu a hands on Manager, down on the training ground close interface with the players, or is he more office based, like Wenger was reported to be? Leaving the motivation, ass kicking etc to his sidekicks.

[Black ('n' White) Sheep]

We're all aware of what Cocu/Mel/the club are trying to do in bringing through players and buying players which could potentially make us a profit. This season, as long as we're in no danger of getting relegated, I'd be happy. If we're still 22nd come Christmas (or if we're cast massively adrift before) something has to change though. Even if it's a case of bringing in Big Sam, Pulis (or similar) to scrap out some results in the second half of the season to save our Championship status. L1 would be a disaster in the current climate.

[Wolfie20]

8 minutes ago, Black ('n' White) Sheep said:

We're all aware of what Cocu/Mel/the club are trying to do in bringing through players and buying players which could potentially make us a profit. This season, as long as we're in no danger of getting relegated, I'd be happy. If we're still 22nd come Christmas (or if we're cast massively adrift before) something has to change though. Even if it's a case of bringing in Big Sam, Pulis (or similar) to scrap out some results in the second half of the season to save our Championship status. L1 would be a disaster in the current climate.

Not sure we're all aware of what he's trying to achieve. There's a small number of posters who are constantly negative in their views and no matter what the thread, will introduce that negativity into it. You just know, as soon as their username appears, what the gist of the post is likely to be.

There's no doubting the start to the season has been extremely poor - there are extenuating circumstances and possible reasons why the opening 3 league games have not gone well but for pity's sake - we aren't even 7% through the season and some are calling for Cocu's sacking. The old adage that football fans are fickle is never truer than at Derby County.

[WhiteHorseRam]

12 hours ago, minesahartington said:

I would really be a interested to know whether the older fans who have seen great times with the rams.be satisfied with mid Division 2 finish? 

 

I am not prehistoric, but have seen good, bad and really awful in my time. I have two points - 

1. I wouldn't be happy with mid-table but I would accept it as long as I could see continuous improvement in performance.

2. What really worries me is losing all momentum. Winning is a habit, losing is a habit. I want the manager and the team to treat every game like their last.

That might sound unreasonable, but if in March/April we find ourselves with a chance of breaking into the play-offs, or needing points desperately to stop being relegated, the 9 pts we are effectively behind now will look like a mountain to climb. So best to start playing like mad right now.

 All the other teams have their own plans and will happily batter us if we take the foot off the gas in any way. The championship is a bear pit. To get promoted automatically (which is best - that way you get to plan stuff and the play-off route is a total lottery) you more or less have to win every game. If you get mired at the bottom all confidence goes and any way back is so very fragile.