v Reading (H) Match Thread

[Tamworthram]

2 minutes ago, Andicis said:

The strength of the championship is always more or less the same, some teams better some worse, regardless we should be progressing.

Presumably every club think they should be progressing. We don’t have any god given right to do better than everyone else.

[Andicis]

1 minute ago, Tamworthram said:

Presumably every club think they should be progressing. We don’t have any god given right to do better than everyone else.

Who's saying we have a god given right? The manager is tasked with progression, if you're ok with mediocrity then that's fine but I'm not.

[Sean]

We're above Forest. Up the Rams

[jono]

3 hours ago, IslandExile said:

Predictable.

We knew before the game that, with the injuries, it would be difficult for us to create anything in this game. So it proved.

We also knew that, despite that, the Cocu "doubters" would be out in force. So it is being proven.

One final thought, much as I am excited by the youngsters breaking into the team, today showed how much we need proven, experienced quality.

I'm not sure that Knight, Sibley and Whitaker are yet ready enough for all three to be starting. And, yes, I appreciate that, out of necessity, Sibley is playing out of position.

Absolutely ..??  I love the youngsters being out there but in that scenario without enough old heads they will look exactly what they are ..(and we saw it against Brentford ) BUT  add in 3 players with some metaphorical grey hair ( plus muscle) and the whole equation changes. Marriott was clearly ploughing a loan furrow so those making him a scapegoat is pretty weak. I’m not having a grump and a Goan until we have a handful of matches with a full squad under our belts. 

[Zag zig]

4 hours ago, Andicis said:

Anything from Luton is a positive!? They have no resources, no money, not many good players and yet we still don't think we can win lol

Oh I think we can win, whether we do is another matter ?

As I said I’m trying to keep perspective until injured forwards back and transfer window closes; then I’ll start to critique Cocu more.

Right now I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt he couldn’t bring players in he wanted until firstly the soft embargo was lifted and then he had to offload to generate funds to bring in better quality targets than the free transfer ilk we saw last season.

So no over reacting from me based on today’s forward options; let’s wait and see.

[May Contain Nuts]

7 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

@Coconut I’d be genuinely interested in knowing which game(s) we won that we shouldn’t. My criticism of last season is/was that we were so lethargic and pitiful, we didn’t spring a single surprise in the league. 

Derby 1-0 Wigan, last minute Shinnie winner, but we didn't play well.

Preston 0-1 Derby courtesy of a Rooney free kick, but otherwise we didn't create much.

Derby 1-1 Forest, not a win but a point we ultimately 'deserved' despite the rest of the performance. Similarly Leeds away where they should have been out of sight.

That's 8 points gained in matches where the opposition could feel somewhat aggrieved to have lost points.

It's not necessarily that we shouldn't have got points, but we could count ourselves lucky on the balance of play.

 

[Jourdan]

I hate to repeat myself but I think we need Jozwiak and three signings to see some green shoots.

Jozwiak, a winger to replace Jozefzoon as we will need the depth at some point, a striker to replace Martin, and most crucially a midfielder. Hopefully we can find some joy in the loan market.

I really like Bird and Sibley. They are both immensely talented but they are in danger of being wasted in this team and the current set-up if we don’t address our issues.

The arrival of Jozwiak and the return of Lawrence will bring some much needed pace, edge and directness. A new striker to replace Martin will also be a boost.

But if we don’t get a midfielder in, I think it will end up being a massive oversight. Shinnie and Rooney won’t cut it. Bielik and Holmes are good players but will be difficult to rely upon.

We desperately need someone to drive us up the pitch, link defence with attack, and get us transitioning from one box to the other with tempo.

Without that, the likes of Bird and Sibley and even Lawrence and Jozwiak will be swallowed up by the safety first tactics.

[Jram]

23 minutes ago, Andicis said:

His team hasn't changed since last year, so why should the position on the table? No progression, even when he's supposed to be a coach?

All hypothetical anyway 

I obviously hope for more and no reason we can’t achieve that, early days 

[EraniosSocks]

2 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

I hate to repeat myself but I think we need Jozwiak and three signings to see some green shoots.

Jozwiak, a winger to replace Jozefzoon as we will need the depth at some point, a striker to replace Martin, and most crucially a midfielder. Hopefully we can find some joy in the loan market.

I really like Bird and Sibley. They are both immensely talented but they are in danger of being wasted in this team and the current set-up if we don’t address our issues.

The arrival of Jozwiak and the return of Lawrence will bring some much needed pace, edge and directness. A new striker to replace Martin will also be a boost.

But if we don’t get a midfielder in, I think it will end up being a massive oversight. Shinnie and Rooney won’t cut it. Bielik and Holmes are good players but will be difficult to rely upon.

We desperately need someone to drive us up the pitch, link defence with attack, and get us transitioning from one box to the other with tempo.

Without that, the likes of Bird and Sibley and even Lawrence and Jozwiak will be swallowed up by the safety first tactics.

Spot on, I would love a player like Alex Mowatt for example in this team. Would be perfect 

[Sean]

1 minute ago, Jourdan said:

We desperately need someone to drive us up the pitch, link defence with attack, and get us transitioning from one box to the other with tempo.

Without that, the likes of Bird and Sibley and even Lawrence and Jozwiak will be swallowed up by the safety first tactics.

Krystian Bielik

[ariotofmyown]

26 minutes ago, SaintRam said:

I agree. I'm a big Cocu supporter, but if this season ends with us having gone backwards from last year I couldn't bring myself to be confident in him moving forward. Unless something extraordinary causes it, like the entire squad simultaneously breaking their ankles.

I'm now assuming we are going to see the corner flag again and a statement about how disappointed the club are that 12 senior players were daring each other to walk over cattle grids.

[Justa]

3 hours ago, Jourdan said:

It's not just the tactics. It's the overall lack of strategic planning, organisation and decision making from key figures at the club that compounds matters and makes games like today both frustrating and painfully predictable.

Pre season was a mess. Kids in the under 18s were getting more minutes than first team regulars. No partnerships or semblance of team structure was developed. Three at the back was trialled when we should have stuck with our primary system and worked on making it more effective and developing tempo.

OK, we are still waiting on signings in attacking areas. But let's be honest, the moment Martin's contract negotiations broke down, we should have made attacking players the first priority. With Lawrence already nursing an injury at that point, we were missing two players who contributed to over 30 goals last season.

We were left with Waghorn and Marriott. Anyone who has watched Marriott in the last nine months knows he hasn't looked right since Lampard left and cannot be relied upon. So effectively we were down to just Waghorn as a reliable, dependable option. He gets injured and boom, the perfect storm.

Yes, the embargo would have complicated matters. One in, one out. The poor financial situation too. But could we have focused on signing two attacking players and closed deals for Marshall and Clarke, for example, later in the window?

Marshall, Clarke, Te Wierik and Byrne are smart additions, but could we have held fire on them and focused on our attack? The lack of goals, creativity, and intensity has been evident for months and should have been addressed as quickly as possible.

No-one has buried Cocu or the players, but you can understand the frustration. Back in July, we were well beaten by the cream of the division and it should have been a wake up call. But we've just meandered along. Today we were beaten by a Reading side that will be mid-table at best and as it stands, can't even go into Luton away with any confidence.

Having concern is perfectly understandable, and not an overreaction at all. This has been bubbling away for months.

Thanks for putting that much better than I did !

[europia]

1 hour ago, RoyMac5 said:

Perhaps he should consider the players he has rather than the one's he wants? If they have to adapt why can't he?

I've also considered that might be the nub of it. In order to get promoted playing to Cocu's style would always be very difficult. Trying to do so with players who don't really have the ability to play that style makes it all the more challenging. Managers like Warnock are often derided on this forum, but the success can't be ignored, if it's a crack at getting into the PL that is the aspiration. 

[Jourdan]

8 minutes ago, Sean said:

Krystian Bielik

Maybe. But with his injury record, there is a question mark there.

We don’t know how he will look coming back. Will the injury have affected his athleticism and mobility, for example? Will he be able to have a decent run of games?

I definitely think he has some qualities we lack currently, but in some ways, if we could merge Bielik and Holmes, we’d have exactly what we need.

I mean you can have Lawrence, Jozwiak, Sibley and all the attacking players you want, but we have to get the ball to them first...

[Alph]

1 hour ago, Coconut said:

"You should always play on the front foot, positive football"

"I want the team on the pitch to play with bravery and confidence"

"if you're afraid to make a bad pass or make a bad decision, you shouldn't come out to play a game"

"in  midfield we hesitated instead of playing an up-tempo game"

"We don't have a lot of options to make changes when needed, the lack of creativity and end product, that's something we're trying to change for the team"

 

 

Apparently though, according to the experts on here, it's his plan, his mentality, and his tactical approach that's the problem.

Whether he can get the team playing to the standards he wants may be up in the air, but anyone who questions his intent and claims he wants us to be boring to watch, afraid to attack and play with a slow tempo is talking out of their arse, and I'm fed up of sniffing their odours.

there is nothing stopping him adding an extra dimension to our play. If you want to play football then you will get pressed. You either play through that press or you try to stop the press. You can call people experts but would you have the same attitude towards them if they were saying we have a bright future and the foundations are in place for an exceptional team? You wouldn't mock them then, would you? You'd be deciding they know their stuff

What about the experts that called Pearson crap. Were they "experts" or genuine experts. I mean, he was crap but he has decades of high level experience behind him. So can he be wrong? 

What we do under Cocu is all in front of the opposition. He doesn't need multi million pound wingers to force opponents to back off. He doesn't need them to stretch a game and create space for the middle. He doesn't need Neymar on the flanks to turn  Sibely the right way around so he's running onto the ball. 

I know for a fact he doesn't because when Rooney played with Bogle it opened the games up for us and made us far less predictable. When we introduce passing into space instead of feet into our game we look better for it. When we use the width and switch play and start skipping passes out we look less in control but instantly more threatening. 

So we can do it. It doesn't have to be our main approach but it's a viable tactic to create space and or catch teams on the press

Reading did it. For all their lovely football their first chance came from a light press. Their first goal was a hoof. Goal 2 was a corner won with a poor cross. Another 1v1 came from a knock forward. 

Or we can decide that we can't possibly attack the space behind a defence until we've signed a wide player from Lech Poznan. 

I think what grates you is that people appear impatient or want Cocu out or expect instant results. That's simply not true for all of us. I hope to see improvement and us to attempt to win games. But if something is crap then I don't see how saying it's crap is a problem. Apart from a spell upon Rooney's arrival this is how it has been. From 0-0 with Scunthorpe to now. Yes, Cocu has had a tough time. But today was still predictable as any game. Press Derby and they'll do nothing to discourage it. Short of individual brilliance the game is yours to lose.

[LeedsCityRam]

3 hours ago, Ellafella said:

It’s a fair question. I would put Paul Simpson in charge with Van der Laan. Or Chris Hughton. Or Eddie Howe. I’m not sure otherwise but I’ve no real faith in the current regime. I don’t see progress. 

Fair enough, respect your opinion on that. Still think its a big job for Simpson, Hughton is a Rowett/Pearson type result based manager & that Howe would need as much time as Cocu. But fair play for putting some names out there - still adamant we need that managerial stability & increasingly less bothered about who it is. When we get it, we go up IMO.

[Xlor]

2 hours ago, MACKWORTHRAM said:

Let's be honest when the window is shut and we have the signings in and players back from injury. How many of those players that played today will be playing regularly?

Marshall, Byrne, Te Weirik, Clarke, Bird. I think will be mainstays. Pretty much on the team sheet every week. The rest I don't think will at all. 

Even Sibley. I'm not knocking him in the slightest. He's such a talent. But I think if we had any other options he would have been taken out of the team for a bit. He's not really performing. He's young. Its to be expected. Such a big ask for him to play well every week. Young players need bedding in. 

I think we know a winger and a striker are coming in. Striker we have no idea on. But when we have everyone fit I'd like to see something like this:- 

                   Marshall

Byrne. Te Weirik. Clarke. Buchanan

                 Bielik. Bird

                    Holmes

Jozwiak.      Marriott.   Lawrence

You could alternate Holmes and Sibley even play Rooney there in games. I like a fully fit Holmes as the attacking midfielder. I think he's pretty much the only one we've got. Its an area I'd look to strengthen if we could. Same with LB. We really could do with a LB. To go in with Forsyth who's nowhere near good enough. Injuries he's had have taken their toll and the. Buchanan who looks promising but is completely unproven. Just seems too risky to me. I mean there were people saying we didn't need a RB because we had Wisdom and Ebosele. Which when you look back is madness. Its the exact same at LB. 

For me winger, striker, LB is a must. Then in an ideal world we'd bring an attacking midfielder in as well on loan.

This is a big season games coming thick and fast. We need a big squad and not to expect these youngsters are going to be good enough. Its very rare to bring academy players through who are good enough to play in the Championship and it's even rarer to bring through players that are extremely good. So to bring 5 through at once is nigh on impossible.

And imo. Bird is exceptional. A once every 10 years player. Sibley has potential and has shown glimpses. But more than good enough. Knight is ok. But not quite there yet for me. I don't know what he is. Midfielder? Cos he's not a winger. Whittaker was ok today don't get me wrong. But he's nowhere near ready for this level of football yet. 

 

 

 

 

After this, never call my use of grammar or vocabulary ever again because yours is toss?

[Mckram]

Not seen anything from today other than the goals.

We look like we’re still in preseason with how pedestrian we were for them.

How their second goal came about I’ll never know, from a nothing long ball to a man overlapping with no challenge and getting a free shot in our box.

Doesn’t really matter what attacking players we have on the pitch if that’s how we are going to defend. 

[JfR]

3 hours ago, Tyler Durden said:

Ridiculous comment. The point was that I agree that Cocu didn't tell his players to fall asleep at the corner or defend poorly in the same manner as Warnock last night 

I get no conviction though that Cocu will get to grip with the situation and it will be an ongoing repetitive issue of sloppy goals continually given away through poor defending whilst Warnock very quickly will address the same issues. Compare and contrast. 

I don't think it's as stark a contrast as you make out, though. That was the fourth indirect set-piece goal that Middlesbrough have conceded in Warnock's 10 games in charge. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure Warnock will have dug the team out in every single game they conceded one, and I'm sure it's the first thing that Warnock would have had them working on, but he's been there 3 months and they've not managed to cut it out of their game thus far.

[NottsRam77]

2 hours ago, sage said:

 

Watch fozzy again please 

next game please pay particular note to the amount of passes that yes reach their target but are putting the recipient into trouble 

he telegraphs everything he does, so many of his passes are slow and laboured 

I love the guy but I think he’s holding us back a little on the ball

and yes ..... I do know we’re under embargo thanks 

we put our different sides in different halves with in preseason Mix of V young and more established if he’s knows the likes of Waggy and Lawrence are out is it not more important that the likes of Marriott (barely played) sibley (learnIng his trade) knight (see sibley) whitiker (see sibley) And shinnie (in and out last term) play competitively together and develope some sort of understanding so we have half A chance of stringing two passes together and maybe even a shot at goal against barrow and a bang average reading side 
 

no ?