v Reading (H) Match Thread

[sage]

1 minute ago, NottsRam77 said:

Watch fozzy again please 

next game please pay particular note to the amount of passes that yes reach their target but are putting the recipient into trouble 

he telegraphs everything he does, so many of his passes are slow and laboured 

I love the guy but I think he’s holding us back a little on the ball

and yes ..... I do know we’re under embargo thanks 

we put our different sides in different halves with in preseason Mix of V young and more established if he’s knows the likes of Waggy and Lawrence are out is it not more important that the likes of Marriott (barely played) sibley (learnIng his trade) knight (see sibley) whitiker (see sibley) And shinnie (in and out last term) play competitively together and develope some sort of understanding so we have half A chance of stringing two passes together and maybe even a shot at goal against barrow and a bang average reading side 
 

no ?

Forsyth can have bad passing days but today he was good, i watched. 

Marriott played as soon as he was fit. He was recovering from the groin operation. 

[Edtheram]

Predictable. Both DMs were too laboured in possession as Cocu said afterwards. Scrap 4-2-3-1 also

[PendineRam]

5 hours ago, Rampage said:

No statement about most boring level in those years, PR. I can do the maths but what about the entertainment. Rams will be a lot better in three weeks time imo.

Sorry Rampage can't remember as I was only knee high to a grasshopper! I do remember how excited I was and that has never changed.

My take on today, early days and we will get better. Might take more than three weeks as any incomings will take time too settle and Rooney's midriff bulge won't go quickly! Hopefully the first win will come soon as the mood of the team and the fans will then quickly change!  As always my glass will remain half full. 

[Ellafella]

1 hour ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Fair enough, respect your opinion on that. Still think its a big job for Simpson, Hughton is a Rowett/Pearson type result based manager & that Howe would need as much time as Cocu. But fair play for putting some names out there - still adamant we need that managerial stability & increasingly less bothered about who it is. When we get it, we go up IMO.

The point was made today that Reading’s new manager has made an impact in a relatively short time. We do need stability but it’s got to be the right manager.   Can you tell me  @LeedsCityRamwhat it is that Cocu is trying to do? How does he want us to play? And is that system going to be effective in the Championship? I think that’s the point. All managers need time, but some managers never get there regardless of the time you give them. Let’s be quite frank: After 12 months, I see very little progress in the production of a style of play that will be effective in propelling the Club forward. About 6 weeks ago, we beat Reading at home and it was close; today they looked ahead of us with just a couple of additions. Their style of play was effective and more entertaining than our meandering turgidity. Why was that? 

[nottingram]

7 minutes ago, Ellafella said:

The point was made today that Reading’s new manager has made an impact in a relatively short time. We do need stability but it’s got to be the right manager.   Can you tell me  @LeedsCityRamwhat it is that Cocu is trying to do? How does he want us to play? And is that system going to be effective in the Championship? I think that’s the point. All managers need time, but some managers never get there regardless of the time you give them. Let’s be quite frank: After 12 months, I see very little progress in the production of a style of play that will be effective in propelling the Club forward. About 6 weeks ago, we beat Reading at home and it was close; today they looked ahead of us with just a couple of additions. Their style of play was effective and more entertaining than our meandering turgidity. Why was that? 

He has guided his team to an away win in his first game in charge. I think back to 13 months ago when Cocu did exactly the same so I am not really sure of your point? 

 

[LeedsCityRam]

7 minutes ago, Ellafella said:

The point was made today that Reading’s new manager has made an impact in a relatively short time. We do need stability but it’s got to be the right manager.   Can you tell me  @LeedsCityRamwhat it is that Cocu is trying to do? How does he want us to play? And is that system going to be effective in the Championship? I think that’s the point. All managers need time, but some managers never get there regardless of the time you give them. Let’s be quite frank: After 12 months, I see very little progress in the production of a style of play that will be effective in propelling the Club forward. About 6 weeks ago, we beat Reading at home and it was close; today they looked ahead of us with just a couple of additions. Their style of play was effective and more entertaining than our meandering turgidity. Why was that? 

Ultimately Cocu wants a highly intelligent & fluid team that dominates possession & pulls teams all over the place with their movement & tactical adaptability. Problem with that theory is it ain't easy & takes time to implement - much easier to be a Pulis/Rowett/Warnock and get 2 banks of 4, soak up & load the oppo box with plenty of crosses. Can Cocu's style work in the Championship? Yes. Any system that involves movement & control of the ball is difficult to defend against, irrespective of the league.

A key element of this team is the attacking threat - otherwise it very quickly turns into inert, pointless possession for possession's sake. Clearly we're struggling on this front given Lawrence's & Waghorn's injury, the loss of Martin & as things stand, the inability to bring in attacking reinforcements. Without that threat, teams can then lean on us knowing we've got nowt.

Like I said in late December before Rooney arrived, judge Cocu once he has all his tools at his disposal - post Jan, we started playing & apart from weakness against top 6, threatened the playoffs AND played good football. I believe that is the ultimate destination this season - if its still crap once Waggy/Lawrence back & new signings in, then yeah, judgement to be made.

[California Ram.]

Positives...

1) Bryne and Marshall actually looked good even in that showing - they’ll be good additions

2) Everyone a week nearer fitness (Rooney, Lawrence, Waghorn, Bielik - even Wisdom hasn’t had a pre season).

3) under 23s and under 18s had a stellar week. 

4) no crowd in the stadium to watch it and get on the backs of the youngsters.  

5) If there was a reluctance to pay a little bit more for Jozwiak. You’d think that will now be solved. 
 

...just let’s not go make panic signings 

 

[sunnyhill60]

1 hour ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Ultimately Cocu wants a highly intelligent & fluid team that dominates possession & pulls teams all over the place with their movement & tactical adaptability. Problem with that theory is it ain't easy & takes time to implement - much easier to be a Pulis/Rowett/Warnock and get 2 banks of 4, soak up & load the oppo box with plenty of crosses. Can Cocu's style work in the Championship? Yes. Any system that involves movement & control of the ball is difficult to defend against, irrespective of the league.

A key element of this team is the attacking threat - otherwise it very quickly turns into inert, pointless possession for possession's sake. Clearly we're struggling on this front given Lawrence's & Waghorn's injury, the loss of Martin & as things stand, the inability to bring in attacking reinforcements. Without that threat, teams can then lean on us knowing we've got nowt.

Like I said in late December before Rooney arrived, judge Cocu once he has all his tools at his disposal - post Jan, we started playing & apart from weakness against top 6, threatened the playoffs AND played good football. I believe that is the ultimate destination this season - if its still crap once Waggy/Lawrence back & new signings in, then yeah, judgement to be made.

We have seen performances like this umpteen times under Cocu - boring, sterile and unambitious.

It is no good correctly stating what went wrong in a post-match interview, it his job to get the players organised to deliver in the 90 minutes.

The injury situation doesn't help but I don't believe he is getting the best out of the players we have available.

[dantheram]

Watching that, we’re in big trouble unless we suddenly sign 2/3 attacking options and a manager who believes in tempo. I’ve seen a fair few championship seasons now and the style cocu wants to play does not work in this league. 

[dantheram]

And the level of ability shown by Mike is worrying, makes you realise what we had in Keogh, despite the numerous non attending idiots that constantly claimed him to be the root of all evil. 

[Derbados]

2 hours ago, dantheram said:

And the level of ability shown by Mike is worrying, makes you realise what we had in Keogh, despite the numerous non attending idiots that constantly claimed him to be the root of all evil. 

This also concerns me, I know it’s early days and he may come good but he looks to weak to play in this league

he got bullied by Joao yesterday 

[Dimmu]

I only managed to watch first half but seems like we've changed our defensive positioning and pressing. 

It's always hard to tell from telly but we definitely defended with flat and strict 4-4-2 when the ball was on our half. 

Pressing, which for me is not even closely aggressive enough, looked to vary from diamond 4-4-2 to something very fluid which cannot be described with numbers...

Was the second half similar?

[Shaftesbury Street]

One of the worst home performances for a very long time.

[Shadowplay]

1 hour ago, Derbados said:

This also concerns me, I know it’s early days and he may come good but he looks to weak to play in this league

he got bullied by Joao yesterday 

He always bullies us, bullied us on a regular basis in his Sheff Wednesday days. Joao is a very good player at this level.

[Tamworthram]

10 hours ago, Andicis said:

Who's saying we have a god given right? The manager is tasked with progression, if you're ok with mediocrity then that's fine but I'm not.

No, I agree with you buddy. I was just making a poor attempt at putting a rather weak point across. 

[HorsforthRam]

There was a point where Clarke went between two or three opposition players , about 5/6 yards into their half and then spun 180 degrees (looking quite awkward) and passed it back to where he’d come from. Summed the “bravery” up for me. 

[Tamworthram]

4 minutes ago, HorsforthRam said:

There was a point where Clarke went between two or three opposition players , about 5/6 yards into their half and then spun 180 degrees (looking quite awkward) and passed it back to where he’d come from. Summed the “bravery” up for me. 

Clarke probably knows he no Keogh (yet) and maybe uncomfortable making the rampaging runs we used to see. There may not have been any passes on for him to make.

I get what you’re saying about bravery but, Clarke is probably thinking, there’s not much worse than a key central defender being caught out of position deep in the opponents half. Clarke needs a relatively easy and safe pass forward (or even sideways) to someone else who can then take the ball forward themselves or pass the ball forward.

[Andrew3000]

5 hours ago, dantheram said:

And the level of ability shown by Mike is worrying, makes you realise what we had in Keogh, despite the numerous non attending idiots that constantly claimed him to be the root of all evil. 

He has Keogh's wiry build, but is perhaps slower. He played a few good balls.  Needs time to work with settled partners.  I'm going to stick my neck out and say he will adapt and be good after 5 or 6 games. Remember after a great debut Clarke was dodgy before slowly becoming very good.

[angieram]

7 hours ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Ultimately Cocu wants a highly intelligent & fluid team that dominates possession & pulls teams all over the place with their movement & tactical adaptability. Problem with that theory is it ain't easy & takes time to implement - much easier to be a Pulis/Rowett/Warnock and get 2 banks of 4, soak up & load the oppo box with plenty of crosses. Can Cocu's style work in the Championship? Yes. Any system that involves movement & control of the ball is difficult to defend against, irrespective of the league.

A key element of this team is the attacking threat - otherwise it very quickly turns into inert, pointless possession for possession's sake. Clearly we're struggling on this front given Lawrence's & Waghorn's injury, the loss of Martin & as things stand, the inability to bring in attacking reinforcements. Without that threat, teams can then lean on us knowing we've got nowt.

Like I said in late December before Rooney arrived, judge Cocu once he has all his tools at his disposal - post Jan, we started playing & apart from weakness against top 6, threatened the playoffs AND played good football. I believe that is the ultimate destination this season - if its still crap once Waggy/Lawrence back & new signings in, then yeah, judgement to be made.

I think this is a great summary of what Cocu is aiming for.

The nearest recent comparison I can make is with Fulham last season, who of course had the incomparably talented bully Mitrovic to spearhead the attack, flanked by two excellent creative goal poachers in Cavaleiro and Knockeart who can also hold their own in a physical battle. They played slightly less conservatively than Cocu with a 433, which they could do because they also had good physicality right through the rest of the team.

Even then, Fulham had games where they looked invincible and sliced through teams like butter, and others where they looked turgid, uncreative and seemed to be keeping possession for possession's sake. With this type of football it's a fine line between success and failure and you can bet your life every Warnock or Rowett has a plan to set up against it.

So, when you look at Derby, who haven't got that star centre forward, have no outside forwards at the moment, lack physicality throughout the entire team and haven't even got a full eleven who can consistently quickly pass the ball accurately to each other, there is no wonder we aren't looking good!

For me personally the jury is still out on whether Cocu can make this style of football work at Derby when he brings in his forward line. If he can get the blend right, if Bielik comes back in strong form,  if the defence gels, if the young players work on their physicality and confidence it will be an exciting time.

Lot of ifs there, though. I think I have too many doubts over the quality throughout the team to be sure it will happen. But we have to give it more time. 

[Ellafella]

8 hours ago, nottingram said:

He has guided his team to an away win in his first game in charge. I think back to 13 months ago when Cocu did exactly the same so I am not really sure of your point? 

 

The point is he has had an impact in a short space of time and signed some good players whilst we’ve been being played by the Polish team since January trying to sign a 22 year old. Reading looked very good today. We looked awful.